Cincinnati Bengals Message Board / Forums - Home of Jungle Noise

(08-15-2025, 01:48 PM)bfine32 Wrote: [ -> ]Tobin asked about Shemar's lack of sacks in college, I dug his reply:

How many of those college sacks does he get to bring with him to the NFL? The same amount as the player that had 18. What he does get to bring with him is his strength, quickness, desire.

Murphy was also an underwear warrior with limited production. They sure learned their lesson there .....NOT  

I look at picks in basically 3 areas: production, physical traits, personal traits (personality, work ethic, team player, etc.).

I would love for a player to be outstanding across all 3, but most are not. Or at oeast, higher in some areas than others. Most teams will have minimum levels on all 3, most likely. Though red flags (or below min standards) on one might be overlooked if the other two traits are really outstanding. 

For me, I would not take guys with red flags in one area round 1. I just wouldn't. Too risky. 

In Stewart's case, the traits were off the charts, the personal stuff was good to great (coachable, well liked, works hard, willing to play different spots). But the production, in terms of sacks especially, was substandard. Though not disqualifying. Still graded out as an excellent run defender. 

Me, I'd have gone a different direction with less risk. A traits guy with production issuecis Rd2, tops, for me. 

But thatcdoes not mean it can't work out. I just think that players who are not that productive in college, more often than not, do not turn into super-productive NFL players. 

Scheme. Talent around them. All that can impact it. 

But it is crying over spilled milk now. 

(08-15-2025, 03:40 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: [ -> ]Murphy was also an underwear warrior with limited production. They sure learned their lesson there .....NOT  

I look at picks in basically 3 areas: production, physical traits, personal traits (personality, work ethic, team player, etc.).

I would love for a player to be outstanding across all 3, but most are not. Or at oeast, higher in some areas than others. Most teams will have minimum levels on all 3, most likely. Though red flags (or below min standards) on one might be overlooked if the other two traits are really outstanding. 

For me, I would not take guys with red flags in one area round 1. I just wouldn't. Too risky. 

In Stewart's case, the traits were off the charts, the personal stuff was good to great (coachable, well liked, works hard, willing to play different spots). But the production, in terms of sacks especially, was substandard. Though not disqualifying. Still graded out as an excellent run defender. 

Me, I'd have gone a different direction with less risk. A traits guy with production issuecis Rd2, tops, for me. 

But thatcdoes not mean it can't work out. I just think that players who are not that productive in college, more often than not, do not turn into super-productive NFL players. 

Scheme. Talent around them. All that can impact it. 

But it is crying over spilled milk now. 

I think they not only looked at his sack figures, but how disruptive he was. It's all relative. Prime Hubbard was never a huge sack guy, but he was excellent at setting the edge and stopping the run. He could be the anvil to Trey Henderson's hammer. I'm sure Golden sees all kinds of potential in using Stewart in different ways. 

(08-15-2025, 02:22 PM)Synric Wrote: [ -> ]Shemar Stewart has better than an outside shot for DROY. He is going to get pass rush opportunities because of the offense and they fact they have no one else outside of Hendrickson. They are showing a willingness to give him opportunities from multiple alignments too. 

Shemar sure is going to have his opportunities alright. What is nice is he can line up all over the place and is a 3 down End on top of it.

(08-15-2025, 02:33 PM)Au165 Wrote: [ -> ]Danielle Hunter didn't, in fact he had just 4.5 sacks over 3 years at LSU but had insane physical traits that got him drafted. That worked out pretty well.

Side note, I hated the pick but this isn't some rogue way of thinking.

Hunter is the perfect comparison. I wanted the production before the pick, but both Green and Pearce had character concerns.

We will see how it works out as you say. I like Shemar more and more as a player. Athletic freak that he is.

(08-15-2025, 02:58 PM)Au165 Wrote: [ -> ]I do think we will see more vertical Yoshi this year. Seems he has gotten much better in contested situations and by putting Jamar and Mike G/Fant inside we will force more outside one on one match ups for Tee and him.

Yoshi has put in the work once again and has been making plays and he DOES score TD's which matters the most.

Tee standing up for him is no surprise, Tee is all class and as selfless as there is.

(08-15-2025, 03:28 PM)Sled21 Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, he also talked about how deep with are at DB, and that most teams can't go six deep on the roster with little drop off. And he pretty much said the same thing about the D-line. Wonder what he was drinking? Seriously though, his biggest concerns coming in were the linebackers, and he thinks that is now shored up. So I guess we'll see....

Golden and Hodges Linebackers need to step up this next game, especially Logan and Demetrius.

BTW, thanks Bfine for all the quotes, lots of great stuff man.

(08-15-2025, 02:33 PM)Au165 Wrote: [ -> ]Danielle Hunter didn't, in fact he had just 4.5 sacks over 3 years at LSU but had insane physical traits that got him drafted. That worked out pretty well.

Side note, I hated the pick but this isn't some rogue way of thinking.

It's not the thought process. I get the coach/gm/fo speak. 

It's a very 'blow smoke up your ass' way of rationalizing (i don't feel like that's the best choice of words) or simply expressing yourself. 

He could have easily done what you did, pointed out a player in the past or said, sure not as much production but we believe he can develop here. That's all fine. 

Instead, he decided to come up with some stupid ass quip about what he did bring to the NFL is "(Duke quote here)", as if those other guys didn't bring their intensity, hustle, whatever...as well as having the production. 

It was just a dumb thing to say. But maybe it's just a 'me thing'. I've never been a fan of a perceived smoke up the ass attempt. 

A couple of other quotes:

Solly on Stewart: He's a play wrecker; he takes on double teams and plays with a flat back." I must admit, IDK what playing with a flat back means, but Solly digs it.

Laps on Krumrie: Laps used to come up to Tim on Friday Practices before games and say, "Let's just back it down a little today." Time would say, "Nope, make sure you double snap your chinstrap."

Fierce: A word used multiple times to describe Stew. I think we saw it with the fight.

(08-15-2025, 02:31 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah. Those other guys brought the same things to the NFL, plus all their sacks. And no plans for outside help on the Oline. 

Tobin is a dumbass. 

Sure, because college sack production is directly related to NFL sack production.

Quick, how many of the top 20 sack leaders from 2023 are great NFL pass rushers?

(08-15-2025, 06:05 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: [ -> ]Sure, because college sack production is directly related to NFL sack production.

Quick, how many of the top 20 sack leaders from 2023 are great NFL pass rushers?

There's a point and the one i made went flying by as you created your own. 

(08-15-2025, 03:40 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: [ -> ]Murphy was also an underwear warrior with limited production. They sure learned their lesson there .....NOT  

I look at picks in basically 3 areas: production, physical traits, personal traits (personality, work ethic, team player, etc.).

I would love for a player to be outstanding across all 3, but most are not. Or at oeast, higher in some areas than others. Most teams will have minimum levels on all 3, most likely. Though red flags (or below min standards) on one might be overlooked if the other two traits are really outstanding. 

For me, I would not take guys with red flags in one area round 1. I just wouldn't. Too risky. 

In Stewart's case, the traits were off the charts, the personal stuff was good to great (coachable, well liked, works hard, willing to play different spots). But the production, in terms of sacks especially, was substandard. Though not disqualifying. Still graded out as an excellent run defender. 

Me, I'd have gone a different direction with less risk. A traits guy with production issuecis Rd2, tops, for me. 

But thatcdoes not mean it can't work out. I just think that players who are not that productive in college, more often than not, do not turn into super-productive NFL players. 

Scheme. Talent around them. All that can impact it. 

But it is crying over spilled milk now. 

Reasoned response, but if Stew got about 6 more sacks  this past year, he would have been the 1st DE off the board and a Top-5 pick. 

(08-15-2025, 07:00 PM)bfine32 Wrote: [ -> ]Reasoned response, but if Stew got about 6 more sacks  this past year, he would have been the 1st DE off the board and a Top-5 pick. 

You are 100% correct. If he had the production, he's a top 5 pick. 

Murphy woukd have been top 10, most likely. 

I mean, I hated the pick. I'd have gone for a lower risk fix at another area (OG, DT, S, LB) or traded back. My way has a lower ceiling and still does carry risk. But I get it.  If he hits and you have Trey and Stewart, the whole dynamic of our D changes. 

(08-15-2025, 05:58 PM)bfine32 Wrote: [ -> ]A couple of other quotes:

Solly on Stewart: He's a play wrecker; he takes on double teams and plays with a flat back." I must admit, IDK what playing with a flat back means, but Solly digs it.

Laps on Krumrie: Laps used to come up to Tim on Friday Practices before games and say, "Let's just back it down a little today." Time would say, "Nope, make sure you double snap your chinstrap."

Fierce: A word used multiple times to describe Stew. I think we saw it with the fight.

Ok, don't crucify me, this is AI's answer.....

Quote:In football, a defensive end playing with a "flat back" refers to a technique where the defensive end maintains a position parallel to the line of scrimmage, rather than immediately attacking the offensive line. This "flat" position allows the defensive end to better read the offensive play and react accordingly, whether it's a run or pass, and helps them stay outside of potential blocking schemes. 



Here's a more detailed breakdown: 

• Parallel to the Line:
  Instead of immediately rushing the quarterback or trying to penetrate the offensive line, the defensive end aligns themselves with the line of scrimmage, keeping their back relatively straight.
• Reading the Play:
  This stance allows them to observe the offensive line's blocking assignments and the running back's initial movement, helping them anticipate the play's direction.
• Containment:
  It's a way to maintain outside contain, preventing the ball carrier from getting to the edge of the line and turning the corner for a big gain.
• Reaction to Run or Pass:
  Depending on the play, the defensive end can then either attack the line of scrimmage to disrupt the run or drop back into pass coverage if it's a passing play.
• Avoiding Blocks:
  Playing "flat" can help the defensive end avoid being trapped or blocked by offensive linemen, especially on plays designed to neutralize a pass rush.
  

(08-15-2025, 02:58 PM)Au165 Wrote: [ -> ]I do think we will see more vertical Yoshi this year. Seems he has gotten much better in contested situations and by putting Jamar and Mike G/Fant inside we will force more outside one on one match ups for Tee and him.

(08-15-2025, 03:30 PM)Sled21 Wrote: [ -> ]DId you see his interview with Kay Adams. Yoshi looks pretty jacked, and according to Burrow contested catches are no longer a weakness for him but a strength of his game.

I think that Yoshi will get more opportunities as does Fant & Gesicki. I think Joe’s focus is more on winning. Of course it’s always been but he made sure he fed Tee & Chase. Subconsciously maybe but they have their contracts. Chase has eased past Jefferson as the best. I just think it’s a combination of a better position group and trust for sure. But a better run game and using all his weapons could really launch this offense. Then Zac get a little Mike Martz in him. Jumping out on teams and making them be one dimensional will help the defense. In 2008 Oklahoma with Bradford & Gresham with Kevin Wilson as OC avg 50.1 points a game. We had a poor defense. Wilson jumped out early and aggressively. It took Florida to stop us in the Championship.

(Yesterday, 10:48 AM)Sled21 Wrote: [ -> ]Ok, don't crucify me, this is AI's answer.....

Being able to play with a flat back takes an extremely athletic or physical player. It could also explain his lack of sacks and great run game rating. Trey is not remotely as good in the run game but he makes up for it in pass rush. Just my 2 cents.

(Yesterday, 10:55 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: [ -> ]Being able to play with a flat back takes an extremely athletic or physical player. It could also explain his lack of sacks and great run game rating. Trey is not remotely as good in the run game but he makes up for it in pass rush. Just my 2 cents.

Well, before I looked it up I assumed a flat back meant his back was parallel to the ground at the snap. So I learned something today. I think your correct on Stewart.

(Yesterday, 10:48 AM)Sled21 Wrote: [ -> ]Ok, don't crucify me, this is AI's answer.....

Thanks, and that makes sense with Solly saying he takes on double teams. I could almost get excited thinking about what he and Jenkins may be able to do on the Left Side.

The ironic thing is, like Stew, KJ has some terrible sack numbers in college (4.5 sacks/44 games), yet he wa able to get 3 sacks as a backup his first year in the NFL

(Yesterday, 11:02 AM)Sled21 Wrote: [ -> ]Well, before I looked it up I assumed a flat back meant his back was parallel to the ground at the snap. So I learned something today. I think your correct on Stewart.

I’m not an expert here. I’m not like Synric who played at a high level and is for this board’s sake. He’s much better than me. But most edges can’t play with a flat back. Stewart is bigger and stronger. As I prophesied dunno but Elkos scheme at TAMU may have been read and react because in college the QB read option is used a lot. So maybe their scheme limited his sacks. But the peek at Stewart looks like his versatility is huge. If we can get a pass rush Slaton ( collapsing the pocket) with Trey and Stewart and Ossai things look a ton different for this defense. The run game I definitely think is improved with Slaton,Knight & Shemar. If our pass rush on definite passing downs is much improved this defense can become average. Funny how average is a win lol.

(Yesterday, 11:16 AM)bfine32 Wrote: [ -> ]Thanks, and that makes sense with Solly saying he takes on double teams. I could almost get excited thinking about what he and Jenkins may be able to do on the Left Side.

The ironic thing is, like Stew, KJ has some terrible sack numbers in college (4.5 sacks/44 games), yet he wa able to get 3 sacks as a backup his first year in the NFL

Learned something there as well with a flat back with Shemar. Looking forward to him and Kris Jenkins disrupting this season.

Sounds like they are tearing it up. The people that hated the Shemar pick I think will be changing their tune soon enough.

Sometimes you have to draft guys with crazy upside that just work hard even if they didn't have the great production.

You have to look at why they didn't have the sacks. Kris was a LB then and End, then a DT. Shemar was a run stopper that sealed the edge in 
the run game and disrupted Offenses with his freakish ability and first step. You can see Shemar's power and explosion on every snap when I 
am watching. I saw a lethargic Sam Hubbard last year out there, nothing against the great man. He was just done.

Shemar is just starting.

This "flat back" comment is interesting. I think he is referring to power and speed to power rushes of Stewart - not the angle/extension to keep his body clean to read and react.

Shemar had made a comment about Trey's power rushes and how he "flat-backs people".

As related to "flat-back", pre-snap a DL in a flat back 3-point stance sink and load their hips with chest over knee. At snap DL unloads hips crossing the line of scrimmage, punches lower to mid torso  of OL at their own eye level and attempts to rise/lift the O-lineman while exploding through them.

The one area that Shemar has to work on is not lunging. Maintaining balance at engagement and any counter moves requires strength and flexibility - otherwise it is uncontrolled lunging.