Cincinnati Bengals Message Board / Forums - Home of Jungle Noise

(05-31-2015, 10:08 PM)treee Wrote: [ -> ]Doesn't matter what TE we have if we can't actually develop them.

Or simply design game plans/call plays in a way to utilize their talents.

(05-31-2015, 10:59 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: [ -> ]We just need to put them out there and put them in positions to succeed.

Something the Bengals coaches have failed to do. 
I think people have forgotten that last year wasn't Eifert's first year.

We'll have to wait and see. Historically the Bengals have not been big on attacking the seams and it is one reason our TEs always seem to have lackluster passing stats. So we have to have the right players, have them be coached up and put the right patterns in the playbook.

(06-01-2015, 12:01 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: [ -> ]Something the Bengals coaches have failed to do. 
I think people have forgotten that last year wasn't Eifert's first year.

Maybe Gresham just wasn't the right compliment to him.

Who knows?

I'm just hoping that it finally clicks and we start using them properly because why else did we draft them?

(06-01-2015, 12:27 AM)Joelist Wrote: [ -> ]We'll have to wait and see. Historically the Bengals have not been big on attacking the seams and it is one reason our TEs always seem to have lackluster passing stats. So we have to have the right players, have them be coached up and put the right patterns in the playbook.

Like I keep saying, I don't think they need to be coached up because they've proven that they can run routes and catch the ball.

(06-01-2015, 12:56 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: [ -> ]Maybe Gresham just wasn't the right compliment to him.

Who knows?

I'm just hoping that it finally clicks and we start using them properly because why else did we draft them?


Like I keep saying, I don't think they need to be coached up because they've proven that they can run routes and catch the ball.

I'm with the others who think it's not so much coached up as it is we won't utilize him properly. Like Rfaulk says, the year before Eifert and Jones both had many stretches in the season when they rarely saw the field !

(05-31-2015, 11:58 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: [ -> ]Or simply design game plans/call plays in a way to utilize their talents.

They did fine when the Bengals had both TEs in 2013 they each had a fair amount of touches. The reason they didn't light the world on fire was because Andy and Jay were spreading the ball all over the field. I'd rather see that one player getting all the touches.

(05-31-2015, 07:39 PM)franchise18 Wrote: [ -> ]Gresham is a physical specimin if nothing else. He could run NFL guys over when he was into it.

....and fumble the ball fighting for the extra yard.

I'm a Rutgers fan and I think Kroft is solid, but, he still has some development left to do. It is true though, his QB (Gary Nova) was terrible and constantly overthrew his receivers. He would look like Tom Brady one game (Against Arkansas) and Cindy Brady in others (Virginia Tech).

(06-01-2015, 07:34 AM)Synric Wrote: [ -> ]They did fine when the Bengals had both TEs in 2013 they each had a fair amount of touches. The reason they didn't light the world on fire was because Andy and Jay were spreading the ball all over the field. I'd rather see that one player getting all the touches.

Exactly.  In 2013 our TEs accounted for about 25% of our pass completions (89 of 364).

The reason they didn't get a lot of yardage is that we rarely throw down the field to our TEs.  

(05-31-2015, 04:56 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: [ -> ]Some people saw the pick of Kroft in the 3rd as a reach, given that most experts and other teams had him ranked as an late fourth-early fourth round pick,

I find it interesting that when a player is taken earlier than all the "experts" predict people claim the team was wrong and the experts were correct.  But when a player is taken much later than the "experts" predict no one claims that all 32 teams were wrong and the experts were correct.

FYI Jerome Simpson has more career receptions than 2 of the 5 WRs drafted higher than him, and 5 of the other 9 WRs taken in the top 2 rounds that year.

(06-01-2015, 10:49 AM)fredtoast Wrote: [ -> ]Exactly.  In 2013 our TEs accounted for about 25% of our pass completions (89 of 364).

The reason they didn't get a lot of yardage is that we rarely throw down the field to our TEs.  

Also, to add some information to this....

As far as attempts go, in 2013 AJ accounted for 29.35% himself. MJ 13.14%, Sanu 12.46%, Eifert 9.56%, Gresham 10.75%. TEs combined totaled about 21-22% of targets.

25% of pass completions and 21-22% of targets isn't too shabby, but let's go into more detail about Fred's second point here.

A.J. averaged 14.6 yards per catch and 4.1 YAC per reception. That means he averaged about 10.5 YIA (yards in air) per reception.
MLJ - 14 YPC, 4.2 YAC/rec = 9.8 YIA/rec
Sanu - 9.7 YPC, 5.2 YAC/rec = 4.5 YIA/rec
Eifert - 11 YPC, 6.1 YAC/rec = 4.9 YIA/rec
Gresham - 10 YPC, 6.1 YAC/rec = 3.9 YIA/rec

Let's take a look at the most popular 2 TE set that we've seen in recent history, the 2010 and 2011 New England Patriots. Their top targets were....

2010
Wes Welker - 23.27% of targets, 9.9 YPC, 4.9 YAC/rec = 5 YIA/rec

Deion Branch - 14.2% of targets, 14.7 YPC, 5.4 YAC/rec = 9.3 YIA/rec
Brandon Tate - 8.28% of targets, 18 YPC, 6 YAC/rec = 12 YIA/rec - *low targets/rec could skew data, but 8+% is still reasonable*
Rob Gronkowski - 11.24% of targets, 13 YPC, 4.7 YAC/rec = 8.3 YIA/rec
Aaron Hernandez - 12.62% of targets, 12.5 YPC, 6.7 YAC/rec = 5.8 YIA/rec

2011
Wes Welker - 27.61% of targets, 12.9 YPC, 6 YAC/rec = 6.9 YIA/rec
Deion Branch - 13.89% of targets, 13 YPC, 6.7 YAC/rec = 6.3 YIA/rec
Chad Ochocinco - 5.07% of targets, 18.4 YPC, 3.1 YAC/rec = 15.3 YIA/rec - *could be considered skewed as he only had 5% of team's targets*
Rob Gronkowski - 19.77% of targets, 14.7 YPC, 7.1 YAC/rec = 7.6 YIA/rec
Aaron Hernandez - 17.65% of targets, 11.5 YPC, 6.4 YAC/rec = 5.1 YIA/rec

This is just some work to show that Fred's point is accurate, and while we didn't use our TEs as much as the 2011 Patriots, we used them right about the same amount as the 2010 Patriots except in different ways. The Patriots scheme worked because of a myriad of reasons including the fact that they have future Hall of Famers at QB and TE and quite possibly the greatest head coach to ever live. The numbers show that, for whatever reason, the Bengals just didn't throw it down the field very often to their TEs. The numbers from 2013 show a pretty clear gameplan. Throw it down the field to MLJ and Green and let Sanu, Gresham, and Eifert sit underneath on the shorter routes.

(05-31-2015, 05:59 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: [ -> ]Eifert was supposed to be the best thing since sliced bread too...

I'm just old and tired of the same old BS lip service every year about how good this guy is going to be and how hard it's going to be to stop that guy. When these turds* get out on the field and perform at a pro bowl level and actually win a game that matters, i'll be happy. 

Libraries full of BS lip service has jaded me towards all the empty pre-season talk. 

(*turds is obviously an over-the-top term that doesn't accurately reflect their talents. But it's the term i wanted to use. )

I do have to say that I find the off-season claims of how domiant and unstoppable our offense is goign to be to be as amusing as they are reliable.  I always like making the yearly off-season message board solid gold lock of the year list.  Let's see....

2011 - Jerome Simpson = uncoverable
2012-  Armon Binns = Victor Cruz/Fitz
2013 - Gresham and Eifert = Gronk and Murderin' Hernandez
2014 - Gresham and Eifert = Gronk and Murderin' Hernandez
2015 - Who needs Gresham, he stunk!  Heurman and Eifert...er wait, we didn't draft that one?  Ok well, Kroft and Eifert = Gronk and Murderin' Hernandez then

(05-31-2015, 06:27 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: [ -> ]We still put up a 10-5-1 record, so think about how good we'll be with Eifert and Kroft running up the seams all year and just giving defenses nightmares trying to decide how to cover them.  

You want to keep your safeties in the middle of the field?  OK, we'll go up top to AJ 

Ok, this is what I mean.  I get it, optimism feels good but our offense "giving defenses nightmares" has been stated as an inevitability for each off-season I can remember.  Does our offense give defenses nightmares?  Can we at least give them an unpleasant daydream first?

(06-01-2015, 11:45 AM)Nately120 Wrote: [ -> ]I do have to say that I find the off-season claims of how domiant and unstoppable our offense is goign to be to be as amusing as they are reliable.  I always like making the yearly off-season message board solid gold lock of the year list.  Let's see....

2011 - Jerome Simpson = uncoverable
2012-  Armon Binns = Victor Cruz/Fitz
2013 - Gresham and Eifert = Gronk and Murderin' Hernandez
2014 - Gresham and Eifert = Gronk and Murderin' Hernandez
2015 - Who needs Gresham, he stunk!  Heurman and Eifert...er wait, we didn't draft that one?  Ok well, Kroft and Eifert = Gronk and Murderin' Hernandez then

It's probably my favorite part of the offseason when people (Brad) make the most absurd claims about our offense. Every post is filled with how "unstoppable", "unbeatable", "uncoverable" so and so are going to be.

I mean, defenses will have to put extra guys on the field because who can cover these guys?!

I don't know, but I'd guess that most NFL defensive coordinators have it figured out. There have been some high powered offenses to come through the NFL over the years, but every one has been stopped and covered by a defense at some point. Excuse me if I'm just ignoring some facts here and completely missing the point, but when has the recipe for offensive success ever been an average QB, 1 top tier WR, a WR with half of a season of playing time under his belt, a guy with the dropsies, an unproven TE, a rookie TE, and a pair of RBs with 560 career carries??

MLJ is a talented kid and I have high hopes for Eifert, but there's no need to pretend this group of guys is unquestionably going to run rampant leading the NFL in every offense based category.

(06-01-2015, 12:01 PM)djs7685 Wrote: [ -> ]It's probably my favorite part of the offseason when people (Brad) make the most absurd claims about our offense. Every post is filled with how "unstoppable", "unbeatable", "uncoverable" so and so are going to be.

I mean, defenses will have to put extra guys on the field because who can cover these guys?!

I don't know, but I'd guess that most NFL defensive coordinators have it figured out. There have been some high powered offenses to come through the NFL over the years, but every one has been stopped and covered by a defense at some point. Excuse me if I'm just ignoring some facts here and completely missing the point, but when has the recipe for offensive success ever been an average QB, 1 top tier WR, a WR with half of a season of playing time under his belt, a guy with the dropsies, an unproven TE, a rookie TE, and a pair of RBs with 560 career carries??

MLJ is a talented kid and I have high hopes for Eifert, but there's no need to pretend this group of guys is unquestionably going to run rampant leading the NFL in every offense based category.

Hey, I don't begrudge people some optimism, but I do laugh when some people act like the guys who are going to be forced to stay on the sidelines could be the cream of the rest of the NFL, too.  Oy! Optimism rules the off-season now, which beats the same ol' "do we win 2-4 or 5-6 games this season?" sort of feelings of the old days. It is funny how it tends to only be directed towards Bengals players (fitting, in a sense) as Heurman was not only going to be our TE but he was going to be awesome. Oh, we drafted someone else? Well HE's GOING to be awesome, then and was the best choice by far.

Meh, it's possible the Bengals used the 85th overall selection and got Denarius Moore off the Raiders' crap pile to turn the offense into a nightmare-inducing juggernaut but I wouldn't bet my favorite testicle on it!

(06-01-2015, 12:14 PM)Nately120 Wrote: [ -> ]Hey, I don't begrudge people some optimism, but I do laugh when some people act like the guys who are going to be forced to stay on the sidelines could be the cream of the rest of the NFL, too.  Oy!  Optimism rules the off-season now, which beats the same ol' "do we win 2-4 or 5-6 games this season?" sort of feelings of the old days.  It is funny how it tends to only be directed towards Bengals players (fitting, in a sense) as Heurman was not only going to be our TE but he was going to be awesome.  Oh, we drafted someone else?  Well HE's GOING to be awesome, then and was the best choice by far.

Meh, it's possible the Bengals used the 85th overall selection and got Denarius Moore off the Raiders' crap pile to turn the offense into a nightmare-inducing juggernaut but I wouldn't bet my favorite testicle on it!

I'm not gonna lie...


I've never really had a favorite testicle. 

(05-31-2015, 10:08 PM)treee Wrote: [ -> ]Doesn't matter what TE we have if we can't actually develop them.

Bingo. Jonathan Hayes hasn't developed a single TE since he's been here. I don't expect much from Kroft, at this point.

Well, at least he wasn't compared to the next coats. *ninja*


I feel like they got the person they wanted. Doesnt matter where you draft them at as long as they are the guy you wanted and the produce positively for the team.

(05-31-2015, 06:12 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: [ -> ]Yup. Remember when the coaches said Binns was like Boldin and it was getting hard to keep him off the field?

What about when Marv compared Nate Webster to Ray Lewis?

The Bengals hype a few players every year.

When was the last time Marvin said something worth listening to?

(06-01-2015, 08:01 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: [ -> ]When was the last time Marvin said something worth listening to?

If a tree falls in a forest.....?