(10-07-2016, 02:36 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: [ -> ]It can't logically be a fact because underdogs have won.
But they usually do not.
If talent does not matter then why do good coaches have losing seasons?
(10-07-2016, 02:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: [ -> ]You fail at logic.
The only thing it was true about was what had already happened. It was wrong when predicting the future.
If Marvin wins a Super Bowl you will not be able to claim you were right when you guaranteed that he could not.
That's exactly what i said. As long as i've been on here, you should know that i simply don't ever fail at logic.
When (if) Marv ever wins a playoff game or SB, the "guaranteed can't" prediction is then wrong. Although, i'm not arguing that because i've never said there's no way he can.
At this point, right now, you can't say that he can or will because there's nothing to support that claim. Up until Elway won, there was nothing to support the claim that he could, until he actually did it.
Just to reiterate...my logic is always flawless.
(10-07-2016, 02:38 PM)fredtoast Wrote: [ -> ]But they usually do not.
If talent does not matter then why do good coaches have losing seasons?
Talent matters overwhelmingly more often than not.
The "usually" is the part that means it can not be fact.
(10-06-2016, 03:50 PM)fredtoast Wrote: [ -> ]Which coach is worse, one that goes 0-1 in postseason or one that goes 0-7?
Little late to the party, but 0-7. Hands down.
Once can be a fluke. Seven times is a pattern.
Marvin does a lot of things right. Preparing his team for the postseason is not one of them.
(10-07-2016, 02:22 PM)fredtoast Wrote: [ -> ]Nice red herring. Too bad it has nothing to do with the discussion we are having.
If past performance is 100% proof then how was Elway ever able to win a Super Bowl?
Because Elway was a HOF Quarterback and finally proved it on the biggest stage. Prior to that he had won big games. Playoffs, Conf. Championships. Marvin is terrible at coaching in big games. It's as simple as that. Just admit Marvin is garbage in the playoffs. I mean if he was 2-5 fine, 1-6 ok, but my God dude, 0-7. 0-7 in 13 seasons. Just stop. Giggles doesn't have the fortitude to man-up and be even a decent coach in the postseason.
(10-07-2016, 02:39 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: [ -> ] Although, i'm not arguing that because i've never said there's no way he can.
I'm sorry. I was only intending to address the people who claim Marvin will never win a playoff game.
(10-07-2016, 02:54 PM)Benton Wrote: [ -> ]Little late to the party, but 0-7. Hands down.
Once can be a fluke. Seven times is a pattern.
Marvin does a lot of things right. Preparing his team for the postseason is not one of them.
But doesn't the coach that is 0-7 have to be better because he got to the playoffs so many more times.
Neither has a win, but one guy made the playoffs seven times more than the other. Don't know how you can say the 0-1 guy was a better coach.
I think people are interchanging IMPOSSIBLE with IMPROBABLE when they aren't the same thing.
After this many attempts I lean heavy towards it being IMPROBABLE that Marvin Lewis can make it to or win a Superbowl as a head coach given his past performances. This many years in the sample size is large enough to have lost faith in anything other than a lucky win - which isn't IMPOSSIBLE. After so long, it's time to let someone else run the on field stuff as it's IMPROBABLE Marvin can do any better. The rosters can't be any better than what he's had, quite frankly.
The meltdown at Paul Brown was the most embarrassing way a team has lost in the playoffs.... EVER. Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory in monumental flame-out fashion. No great coach would have allowed that. EVER. Great coaches win Superbowls. Mediocre ones take top 5 rosters and win the AFC North. /THREAD
(10-07-2016, 03:11 PM)PDub80 Wrote: [ -> ]I think people are interchanging IMPOSSIBLE with IMPROBABLE when they aren't the same thing.
After this many attempts I lean heavy towards it being IMPROBABLE that Marvin Lewis can make it to or win a Superbowl as a head coach given his past performances. This many years in the sample size is large enough to have lost faith in anything other than a lucky win - which isn't IMPOSSIBLE. After so long, it's time to let someone else run the on field stuff as it's IMPROBABLE Marvin can do any better. The rosters can't be any better than what he's had, quite frankly.
The meltdown at Paul Brown was the most embarrassing way a team has lost in the playoffs.... EVER. Snatching defeat from the jaws of victory in monumental flame-out fashion. No great coach would have allowed that. EVER. Great coaches win Superbowls. Mediocre ones take top 5 rosters and win the AFC North. /THREAD
Well of course it's not IMPOSSIBLE. It's not IMPOSSIBLE that the sun goes full super-nova and vaporizes the solar system within the next several days but it's highly IMPROBABLE. But probably much more probable then Marv ever getting a win beyond week 17.
(10-07-2016, 03:19 PM)JumboTron Wrote: [ -> ]Well of course it's not IMPOSSIBLE. It's not IMPOSSIBLE that the sun goes full super-nova and vaporizes the solar system within the next several days but it's highly IMPROBABLE. But probably much more probable then Marv ever getting a win beyond week 17.
EXACTLY!
But reading Fred's posts (not to put words in his mouth) he seems to be hanging on to the idea that it's not IMPOSSIBLE for Marvin to win one because he keeps getting there. And, of course you have to get there to be able to win one, right? So that's the idea behind keeping Marvin.
Frankly, IMO, with the talent the Bengals have and have had, one playoff win is not redeeming for the failures. A conference championship game, yes, because it would be real progress and useful experience to springboard from. But advancing just one round? With this group? Absolutely not acceptable. The Bengals have been well stacked the last 3 seasons and it should be expected for them to overcome equally talented teams when it matters. They've been there 5 freaking times and have failed to get better.
(10-07-2016, 03:26 PM)PDub80 Wrote: [ -> ]EXACTLY!
But reading Fred's posts (not to put words in his mouth) he seems to be hanging on to the idea that it's not IMPOSSIBLE for Marvin to win one because he keeps getting there. And, of course you have to get there to be able to win one, right? So that's the idea behind keeping Marvin.
Frankly, IMO, with the talent the Bengals have and have had, one playoff win is not redeeming for the failures. A conference championship game, yes. But advancing just one round? With this group? Absolutely not acceptable. The Bengals have been well stacked the last 3 seasons and it should be expected for them to overcome equally talented teams when it matters. They've been there 5 freaking times.
Yep. Spot on.
And oh...fredtoast...I got this one for you bro so you don't have to waste your time:
Hey PDub80 don't you know Elway won a Super Bowl.
You're welcome fred.
(10-07-2016, 03:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: [ -> ]But doesn't the coach that is 0-7 have to be better because he got to the playoffs so many more times.
Neither has a win, but one guy made the playoffs seven times more than the other. Don't know how you can say the 0-1 guy was a better coach.
If you get asked to prom 7 times and hook up 0, are you any better than the guy who got asked 1 time and hooked up 0?
If you have 7 cases before the SCOTUS and lose 7, are you any better of a lawyer than the guy who had 1 case heard and lost it?
If you get arrested 7 times for assaulting a Frisch's Big Boy, are you a more successful criminal than a guy who assaults a Frisch's Big Boy once ad gets arrested?
If you run for office 7 times and don't get elected, are you a better politician than a guy who runs for office 1 time and loses?
What circumstance does failing in larger quantity equate a better job done? Maybe the guy who loads the guns for a firing squad, but not much else.
Here is what it comes down to for me. And this is the point where the argument starts running in circles.
I think there are several coaches better than Marvin. But none of them are available to come here and replace Marvin. I honestly think we have a better chance of winning a championship with Marvin than rolling the dice on some unknown.
It is vert similar to the old Andy Dalton arguments. Dalton was not elite enough for everyone to be behind him, but he was too good to just roll the dice on an unknown QB to replace him.
(10-07-2016, 04:07 PM)Benton Wrote: [ -> ]What circumstance does failing in larger quantity equate a better job done?
Simple answer. When it takes success to even qualify.
A 0-7 coach has had much more success than an 0-1 coach.
Can't believe you can't grasp such a simple concept.
(10-07-2016, 04:07 PM)fredtoast Wrote: [ -> ]I think there are several coaches better than Marvin. But none of them are available to come here and replace Marvin. I honestly think we have a better chance of winning a championship with Marvin than rolling the dice on some unknown.
That would be a viable argument... if we hadn't waved at three recent head coaches hired off our roster. Though, to be honest, I only thought one of them (Zimmer) was a better coach than Marvin. But, to keep this honesty thing going, he's a better coach by a mile.
(10-07-2016, 04:11 PM)Benton Wrote: [ -> ]That would be a viable argument... if we hadn't waved at three recent head coaches hired off our roster. Though, to be honest, I only thought one of them (Zimmer) was a better coach than Marvin. But, to keep this honesty thing going, he's a better coach by a mile.
Not by a mile. He inherited a team that was just one year removed from making the playoffs and he has not won anything.
And he was an unknown. He had never been a HC before.
(10-07-2016, 04:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: [ -> ]Not by a mile. He inherited a team that was just one year removed from making the playoffs and he has not won anything.
So did Marvy on his last reboot, and so far, he's rattled off 5 straight losses.
(10-07-2016, 04:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: [ -> ]Not by a mile. He inherited a team that was just one year removed from making the playoffs and he has not won anything.
And he was an unknown. He had never been a HC before.
To the bold,
Quote:When it takes success to even qualify.
I disagree with defining success as
qualifying for the chance to have success, but according to your definition, he's successful.
Also, I'm not sure what you're talking about. The Vikes were 5-10-1 in 2013 under Frazier. They were not in the playoffs. The Vikes were 7-9 in Zimmer's first year and 11-5 and division champs his second year. He took a 5-10 team and two years later became as successful as Marvin Lewis. Hell, he even did a little better. Unlike the lopsided 2 score losses Marvin has, Zimmer's team lost by a point if I'm remembering right. Although, I'll given Marvin credit, he's closing that gap and now we lose by less.
As far as being an unknown: A- hardly. If any team knew Zimmer, it was us. He was on freaking staff. We knew his strengths and his weaknesses. And, B- so what? Every year a coordinator gets the mantle for some team. Most years multiple teams. It's not like 5-6 teams are passing around Cowher, Dungy and Jon Gruden.