(10-14-2016, 04:13 PM)Earendil Wrote: [ -> ]I'm honestly surprised Marvin isn't lower.
That's pretty low. Look at the names below Marvin. Absolutely zero success, that should tell you something about the company he keeps.
(10-15-2016, 10:17 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: [ -> ]Looking up at John Fox and Jim Caldwell in any type of coaches rank is not good.
You say that, but both have better records than Marvin. Fox has a career winning percentage of .550 and has taken two teams to the Super Bowl. Caldwell has a career winning percentage of .541, has two playoff wins, and a Super Bowl appearance. Marvin is sitting at .540 and as we all know, not a single playoff win.
Man if the team just listened to us years ago everybody would be happy.
Was there a more obvious move for Bengals success than to move Marvin to GM and making Zimmer head coach ?
That ship has sailed so oh well. But we missed that boat.
(10-14-2016, 03:26 PM)fredtoast Wrote: [ -> ]Don't think a 8-8 division champion should get more points than an 11-5 wild card team
(10-14-2016, 03:37 PM)fredtoast Wrote: [ -> ]Don't think a 10-6 division champion should be worth THREE TIMES as many points as an 11-5 wildcard team. And I don't think an 8-8 division champion should be worth more than an 11-5 wildcard team. Playing in a weak division has zero to dowith how good a coach is.
Also don't know why there should be a 6 point difference between a 7-9 team and a 9-7 team when there is only a 2 point difference between a 9-7 team and an 11-5 team. To me all the 7-9 to 9-7 teams are about the same while it is much more rare to win 11 games. No way the difference between 7-9 and 9-7 should be THREE TIMES as great as the difference between 9-7 and 11-5.
And finally, shouldn't a team that wins 11 games and makes the playoffs earn more points than a team that goes 10-6 and misses tha playoffs?
(10-14-2016, 03:38 PM)fredtoast Wrote: [ -> ]Why give a coach credit for playing in a weak division? That has nothing to do with coaching skills.
Then make up your own damn grading system and stop crying about his.
(10-14-2016, 04:40 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: [ -> ]Hey Fred (or anyone else), any debates on where certain coaches are ranked in this list?
I was surprised to see Pagano so high on the list. Especially, being ahead of Pete Carroll.
Overall, it looks like a pretty solid list and about what you'd expect.
Quick question, Shake. If you added 30pts to Marvs total, then divided, what would that take his average to? (let's assume he actually won 3 playoff games)
(10-14-2016, 10:39 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: [ -> ]Agree with all you said about BB. He was a completely average coach in Cleveland, so his constant success in NE is puzzling and frustrating. Parity be damned, they've had a winning record for 15 years straight. Literally the only team to sniff that kind of success in the salary cap/FA era. I honestly believe you could put the Jaguars in Patriots uniforms and Belichick would somehow get them 12 wins and a deep playoff run. Just makes you wonder what he does that's so different.
Belichick was trending up in Cleveland before the whole move to Baltimore thing happened.
While he is a great coach, a lot of what he has done is predicated on having a HOF QB.
People drone on and on about how he did/does when Brady is out. Sure, he can have short term, great, success without him, but over a longer period of time, things would come back closer to average.
It was a perfect storm of great, HOF coach and great, HOF QB arriving at about the same time.
Yeah that's a fair spot for Marvin. 20 out of 32.... Yep. Perfect
(10-14-2016, 10:18 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: [ -> ]Somewhat off topic I suppose, but I find myself more and more dumbfounded by Bill Belichick's success as each year passes. I mean that more in a sense of awe than anything else. I just can't wrap my head around just how good of a coach he is. In my life (37 years) I've never seen anything like it. Not even anything close to it. And I can't stand the guy fwiw, I think he's perfectly described as simply as being an asshole. Such a gigantic asshole.
How in the hell does he do it? He's won with a defense and a below average offense, he's won with an offense and a below average defense. He's won with an offense designed around a strong running game, with a conservative pass offense. He's won with an offense designed with a strong pass game, with little no run game. He's won with Randy Moss at WR1, and he's won with Aaron Dobson at WR1. Corey Dillon vs Ben Jarvis Green Ellis. etc. etc.
Of course Tom Brady helps, but then he went 11-5 with Matt Cassell. And not, we prepared the entire offseason for Matt Cassell, he's getting number reps, we're building the playbook around him. The, throw him to the wolves, haven't started a game since High School, Matt Cassell.
No Gronk? No problem. You're newly inked 40 million dollar Tight End convicted of murder? No problem. You have so many injuries you have to play your WR1 (Troy Brown) both ways, and he playing CB? No problem.
They were beating the absolute tar out of the teams with Jimmy Gralapalo. They were winning with the #3 QB when he was healthy.
Year after year after year this guy just dominates this league. It doesn't matter that there's a salary cap, or that other teams get rewarded with better picks for doing worse. It doesn't matter that you give all these other coaches and staffs time to adjust and improve. He just keeps winning.
The only name I can think of enjoyed a similar run would be Red Aurbach. Other than that I got nothing that could compare. I don't know how you couldn't have as the best NFL coach of all time. Not sure who would even be close. I mean, I love Bill Walsh. He's got a great resume. But Belichick's list of accomplishments just keeps growing and growing.
All that said, **** him. Like I said earlier, he's a dick. And at the end of the day, nothing trumps being an asshole. I want only bad things to happen to him football wise from here on out.
Simple: he cheats. He been busted for taping super bowl practices and of course deflategate... And that's just what he's been caught with. God only knows what he hasn't been caught doing...
I'm not saying the guys not a great coach because he clearly is and I would take him in a heartbeat. But he's a repeat cheat offender, because of that his legacy will always be tarnished and I'll always wonder just how good BB is
(10-15-2016, 12:34 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: [ -> ]Belichick was trending up in Cleveland before the whole move to Baltimore thing happened.
While he is a great coach, a lot of what he has done is predicated on having a HOF QB.
People drone on and on about how he did/does when Brady is out. Sure, he can have short term, great, success without him, but over a longer period of time, things would come back closer to average.
It was a perfect storm of great, HOF coach and great, HOF QB arriving at about the same time.
You have to give credit for drafting him in the sixth round.
(10-15-2016, 12:24 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: [ -> ]I was surprised to see Pagano so high on the list. Especially, being ahead of Pete Carroll.
Overall, it looks like a pretty solid list and about what you'd expect.
Quick question, Shake. If you added 30pts to Marvs total, then divided, what would that take his average to? (let's assume he actually won 3 playoff games)
Pagano benefitted from 2 playoff runs in just 3 years. Over the next few years, his grade will really sink. Prior to the recent Super Bowl runs, Carroll was solid but nothing special. In the end, I take Pete 10/10 times, but Pagano had a lot of early success.
If you add 3 playoff wins to Marv's totals his average would jump to +6.4, which would rank 15th. Ahead of Zimmer (for now) and behind Bill O'Brien. Fwiw, a championship season (typically +88) would only jump Marv up to +10.1, which would rank 13th. He has a lot of catching up to do.
(10-15-2016, 12:34 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: [ -> ]Belichick was trending up in Cleveland before the whole move to Baltimore thing happened.
While he is a great coach, a lot of what he has done is predicated on having a HOF QB.
People drone on and on about how he did/does when Brady is out. Sure, he can have short term, great, success without him, but over a longer period of time, things would come back closer to average.
It was a perfect storm of great, HOF coach and great, HOF QB arriving at about the same time.
Yeah, but he won 11 games AND a playoff game with Vinny Testaverde and Mark Rypien at QB... with the Browns.
He also made Matt Cassel look like a franchise QB on his way to winning 11 games.
/thread
Lol
(10-15-2016, 10:17 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: [ -> ]Looking up at John Fox and Jim Caldwell in any type of coaches rank is not good.
Fox has been to two Superbowls one with Jake delhone as qb.
(10-14-2016, 05:02 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: [ -> ]Pretty sure you mean '09 to '15. Marv averaged +7.3 in those years. That would rank 15th.
It wouldn't be fair to cut certain years from Marv, but not other coaches though.
Also, for anyone wondering, Sam Wyche averaged +2.4 for his career, including the Bucs.
No I meant 08 I break down the Marvin era BZ( Before zim) AZ( After Zim arrived). I imagine Marvin first 4 years were around the low 20s or high 30s.
(10-15-2016, 12:58 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: [ -> ]You have to give credit for drafting him in the sixth round.
I understand what you're getting at, but i have trouble "giving someone credit" for drafting a guy in the 6th round, that ends up panning out the way Brady did. He wouldn't have seen the field nearly as early as he did without the injury to Bledsoe. You have to wonder how things would have turned out if Bledsoe had never been injured.
Without Brady, Belichick (i don't believe) would have had the same level of success that he's had with him. Same goes for Brady without Belichick.
(10-15-2016, 01:08 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: [ -> ]Pagano benefitted from 2 playoff runs in just 3 years. Over the next few years, his grade will really sink. Prior to the recent Super Bowl runs, Carroll was solid but nothing special. In the end, I take Pete 10/10 times, but Pagano had a lot of early success.
If you add 3 playoff wins to Marv's totals his average would jump to +6.4, which would rank 15th. Ahead of Zimmer (for now) and behind Bill O'Brien. Fwiw, a championship season (typically +88) would only jump Marv up to +10.1, which would rank 13th. He has a lot of catching up to do.
Good stuff. And i would agree with taking Carroll over Pagano.
(10-15-2016, 01:28 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, but he won 11 games AND a playoff game with Vinny Testaverde and Mark Rypien at QB... with the Browns.
He also made Matt Cassel look like a franchise QB on his way to winning 11 games.
/thread
Lol
I agree. That's why i always disagree when people talk about how average he was in Cleveland. I'm not saying he wouldn't have success, or wouldn't have SB ring(s). I just don't think he would have the same level of success without the HOF qb (obviously).
(10-15-2016, 01:40 PM)J24 Wrote: [ -> ]No I meant 08 I break down the Marvin era BZ( Before zim) AZ( After Zim arrived). I imagine Marvin first 4 years were around the low 20s or high 30s.
He didn't win any playoff games. There's no way he'd even make it in the 20s.
(10-15-2016, 01:40 PM)J24 Wrote: [ -> ]No I meant 08 I break down the Marvin era BZ( Before zim) AZ( After Zim arrived). I imagine Marvin first 4 years were around the low 20s or high 30s.
I see. In that case, Marv averaged +2.4 pre-Zimmer, and +5.4 since he was hired (including 2 years after he left). Marv only had one winning season (out of 5) in pre-Zimmer days. Keep in mind that his 2 worst seasons came with Zimmer though.
Btw, Marv averaged +3.8 over his first 4 seasons, only 2005 being positive (+15). Like Rfaulk said, it's impossible to score over 20 for a season without a playoff win. The best score possible would be +18 (12+ wins and division title).
