Cincinnati Bengals Message Board / Forums - Home of Jungle Noise

(07-13-2015, 02:21 PM)bfine32 Wrote: [ -> ]Tannehill- Already has had a season with a better passer rating than Andy has had in his career and done so with lesser talent

The talent around Tannehill was as good as Dalton had.

(07-13-2015, 02:21 PM)bfine32 Wrote: [ -> ]...and to rank him 16th or better you can only say 5 at the most on that list are better than Andy:

Manning- Multiple Super Bowl rings and just came off a season better that Andy has ever had
Newton- Passing efficiency has pretty much mirrored each other throughout their careers. The difference is, Superman can run
Kaepernick- Has proven to be very efficient, has already been to a Super Bowl, and Superman may be the only better running QB in the NFL
Tannehill- Already has had a season with a better passer rating than Andy has had in his career and done so with lesser talent
Alex Smith- Very efficient QB. Compare his and Andy's playoff games against the Colts and get back to me.

This right here puts Andy at 17 and at this point you have to totally dismiss the promise of the one-year guys, the absolute cannons of Stafford and Cutler, the health of Bradford and Palmer, you have to assume RGIII and Foles were one-year wonders to keep him in the top 20's

I see your point, it's hard to look at the list and say that only 4 or less are clearly better, but at the same time it's hard to say that 5 or more are clearly better as well.

Manning - I do believe his 2014 puts him ahead of Andy if we're talking present time rankings. I'm with you there.
Newton - He's one of the others that I'd put ahead of Andy.
Kaep - Yuck, I don't know, I argued on the pro-Kaepernick side in the past, but I haven't seen much out of him over the last year or two that makes me want to keep that up. He had what, 1 or 2 impressive playoff games 2 or 3 years ago?
Tannehill - I think he's a decent to good QB but I also think there's a lot of ways to argue pro-Andy OR pro-Tannehill. It's a really tough call considering all of the circumstances. It's close to a toss up IMO
Alex Smith - I don't think it's a good argument when people say "Russell Wilson isn't asked to do a lot", but that description fits Alex Smith perfectly. I don't think the guy is a terrible QB or anything, but we're talking about a guy that just went an entire year without throwing a single TD pass to a wide receiver. His constant dink n' dunk passing has him in the bottom of the league in Yards in the Air percentage over the last couple of years, so he BETTER be efficient! His biggest year volume wise was a season that Andy had over 700 more total yards and 11 TDs, not to mention their passer ratings being almost identical that season. I don't know, I think the only real way you can say Smith is a better QB is if you only choose to look at playoff performance against the Colts in different seasons and total INT numbers.

I don't want to dismiss the promise of the 1 year guys, but I also can't put them ahead of Andy automatically based on potential and not what they've already done in the league. I'd probably trade Andy straight up for Bridgewater or Bortles today if you asked me, but that would be thinking for a long term commitment and not really who I think is better at this very moment and has proven it in the NFL. I can't put too many rookies/1 year guys over a vet that has proven to be at least decent unless the young guy had a very, very impressive season.

Stafford could be a toss up, he had a huge year this one time, but that was 4 years ago now. Since then, he hasn't really looked like anything special. I don't think it's crazy to say he hasn't looked much better (if at all) than Andy. Ditto on Cutler.

Sam Bradford has stayed healthy twice and has looked worse than Andy both years. Meh, I don't see how he's better at all. I don't even think he's equivalent to Andy at this point. CP is another that I like but I can't pretend a history of injury doesn't exist. He also hasn't exactly been lighting up the league when healthy either. Trust me, I'd love to rank CP higher, and I honestly hope I can after this season. I don't really buy a lot of jerseys, but I have a #9 in my closet, but I can't overrate him just because I'm a big fan.

Foles was more like a partial season wonder and what has RGIII done since his rookie year? It's not like he hasn't played a game since 2012 and we aren't sure what he's capable of. We've seen him in plenty of games since his rookie season and he hasn't been very impressive.

(07-13-2015, 03:29 PM)djs7685 Wrote: [ -> ]I see your point, it's hard to look at the list and say that only 4 or less are clearly better, but at the same time it's hard to say that 5 or more are clearly better as well.

Manning - I do believe his 2014 puts him ahead of Andy if we're talking present time rankings. I'm with you there.
Newton - He's one of the others that I'd put ahead of Andy.
Kaep - Yuck, I don't know, I argued on the pro-Kaepernick side in the past, but I haven't seen much out of him over the last year or two that makes me want to keep that up. He had what, 1 or 2 impressive playoff games 2 or 3 years ago?
Tannehill - I think he's a decent to good QB but I also think there's a lot of ways to argue pro-Andy OR pro-Tannehill. It's a really tough call considering all of the circumstances. It's close to a toss up IMO
Alex Smith - I don't think it's a good argument when people say "Russell Wilson isn't asked to do a lot", but that description fits Alex Smith perfectly. I don't think the guy is a terrible QB or anything, but we're talking about a guy that just went an entire year without throwing a single TD pass to a wide receiver. His constant dink n' dunk passing has him in the bottom of the league in Yards in the Air percentage over the last couple of years, so he BETTER be efficient! His biggest year volume wise was a season that Andy had over 700 more total yards and 11 TDs, not to mention their passer ratings being almost identical that season. I don't know, I think the only real way you can say Smith is a better QB is if you only choose to look at playoff performance against the Colts in different seasons and total INT numbers.

I don't want to dismiss the promise of the 1 year guys, but I also can't put them ahead of Andy automatically based on potential and not what they've already done in the league. I'd probably trade Andy straight up for Bridgewater or Bortles today if you asked me, but that would be thinking for a long term commitment and not really who I think is better at this very moment and has proven it in the NFL. I can't put too many rookies/1 year guys over a vet that has proven to be at least decent unless the young guy had a very, very impressive season.

Stafford could be a toss up, he had a huge year this one time, but that was 4 years ago now. Since then, he hasn't really looked like anything special. I don't think it's crazy to say he hasn't looked much better (if at all) than Andy. Ditto on Cutler.

Sam Bradford has stayed healthy twice and has looked worse than Andy both years. Meh, I don't see how he's better at all. I don't even think he's equivalent to Andy at this point. CP is another that I like but I can't pretend a history of injury doesn't exist. He also hasn't exactly been lighting up the league when healthy either. Trust me, I'd love to rank CP higher, and I honestly hope I can after this season. I don't really buy a lot of jerseys, but I have a #9 in my closet, but I can't overrate him just because I'm a big fan.

Foles was more like a partial season wonder and what has RGIII done since his rookie year? It's not like he hasn't played a game since 2012 and we aren't sure what he's capable of. We've seen him in plenty of games since his rookie season and he hasn't been very impressive.

I believe once you get past 10 to 12 guys, then it becomes very subjective depending on the criteria.
If it is now only and no eye for the future, some guys are obviously locks like Manning, Brees and Romo. But, for those who feel those guys have peaked and may soon decline, then Dalton could be considered the better next 5 to 10 year option.

I think he is closer to 16 than 20 for the mere reason when comparing the AD to others, I assume it is a straight trade and right now I would not trade Peyton for AD? I would have 2 years ago, but each year that goes by adds a nail to his retirement.

(07-13-2015, 11:18 AM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: [ -> ]Even in those SB runs, that defense was murderers row rushing the QB.

And Eli was clutch when it mattered most. Eli has had his ups and downs, but he's a better option at QB than Dalton. Even given the turnovers, Eli consistently steps up when it's go or go home. Eli is somewhere in the mix at 8-12. Dalton isn't there.

(07-13-2015, 04:06 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: [ -> ]I believe once you get past 10 to 12 guys, then it becomes very subjective depending on the criteria.
If it now only and no eye for the future, some guys are obviously locks like Manning, Brees and Romo. But, for those who feel those guys have peaked and may soon decline, then Dalton could be considered the better next 5 to 10 year option.

I think he is closer to 16 than 20 for the mere reason when comparing the AD to others, I assume it is a straight trade and right now I would not trade Peyton for AD? I would have 2 years ago, but each year that goes by adds a nail to his retirement.

I'd make the Manning for Andy trade in a heartbeat. Especially given that the Bengals are under the cap. Imagine if the Bengals hadn't overpaid for Maualuga, and used that money and the cap cushion to theoretically sign Manning after a theoretical trade. The Bengals would instantly be the second favorite behind the Pats to represent the AFC in the Super Bowl. The question mark on d would be Dawson at MLB, but That is far outweighed by Peyton freaking Manning. We're speaking of one of the Top 3 QB's, all time. One year of Manning and a legitimate shot to win it all? Sign me up.

(07-13-2015, 04:16 PM)t3r3e3 Wrote: [ -> ]And Eli was clutch when it mattered most.  Eli has had his ups and downs, but he's a better option at QB than Dalton.   Even given the turnovers, Eli consistently steps up when it's go or go home.   Eli is somewhere in the mix at 8-12.  Dalton isn't there.

Eli is also capable of having horrendous years.  And his biggest play in the playoffs was that crazy catch after the DE just stopped sacking him, then the WR made a RIDICULOUS catch...see how it wasn't just Eli? 

Everyone hates Andy's INTs...Eli routinely throws near 20 or above. Same as Andy....Eli has eclipsed 20 INT 3 times.

Is he better? Right now yeah, but he isn't head and shoulders above Andy either

(07-13-2015, 02:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: [ -> ]The talent around Tannehill was as good as Dalton had.

I don't buy that. Dalton's best year had AJ, a healthy Marvin Jones, Andrew Hawkins, Sanu, Gresham, Eifert, and Bernard as receiving weapons.

Tannehill had head case Mike Wallace, Brian Hartline, Jarvis Landry, Rishard Matthews, Charles Clay, and Lamar Miller. And the O line sucked post Incognito. Tannehill has some weapons, but the cast isn't as good as in Dalton's career year. Wallace is a nine route specialist playing with a QB who struggles with deep ball accuracy. Hartline is a career 3rd WR low upside possession receiver. Landry is a rich man's Hartline, who should develop into a lower to medium end WR 2. Clay is a decent move TE/ H back, and is a small upgrade over Gresham. Matthews is nothing special. Lamar Miller is a decent back, but doesn't have Gio's receiving chops. Miami will be interesting this year, because half of that receiving corps is gone.

(07-13-2015, 04:28 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: [ -> ]Eli is also capable of having horrendous years.  And his biggest play in the playoffs was that crazy catch after the DE just stopped sacking him, then the WR made a RIDICULOUS catch...see how it wasn't just Eli? 

Everyone hates Andy's INTs...Eli routinely throws near 20 or above. Same as Andy....Eli has eclipsed 20 INT 3 times.

Is he better? Right now yeah, but he isn't head and shoulders above Andy either

I seem to remember two game winning TD passes at the end of the game to win Two Super Bowls as well. Eli has far surpassed Dalton in Playoff play. He's played well in multiple Playoff wins, and has stepped it up in the Super Bowl. Eli has been erratic over his career, kind of like Flacco, but the guy doesn't wilt under the big lights. If only for that he's a better option than Dalton.

The homer in me says 16.

The realist says 17-20.

(07-13-2015, 04:31 PM)t3r3e3 Wrote: [ -> ] Wallace is a nine route specialist playing with a QB who struggles with deep ball accuracy. 

We are talking about the talent of the receiver not the QB, and Wallace was one of the best WR in the league in Pittsburgh.  He averaged over 1000 per year his 4 seasons there.  He led the league with a 19.4 avg in '09 and averaged 21.0 yards per catch with 1200+ yards in '10.

(07-13-2015, 04:31 PM)t3r3e3 Wrote: [ -> ] Hartline is a career 3rd WR low upside possession receiver. 

Hartline has two 1000+ yard seasons, and his career yards per reception (14.2) is a full yard better than Jones (13.2)

(07-13-2015, 04:31 PM)t3r3e3 Wrote: [ -> ]  Landry is a rich man's Hartline, who should develop into a lower to medium end WR 2. 

He had more receptions and receiving yards last year than either Sanu or Jones have ever had in their careers.

[quote pid='28496' dateline='1436815909']
t3r3e3
   Clay is a decent move TE/ H back, and is a small upgrade over Gresham. 


[/quote]

You admit he was better than Gresham

And finally you don't even mention Brandon Gibson who had two 50+ reception seasons with the Rams before coming to Miami.

(07-13-2015, 02:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: [ -> ]The talent around Tannehill was as good as Dalton had.

The protection afforded them by their Oline alone makes this assertion far-fetched.

(07-13-2015, 10:40 AM)djs7685 Wrote: [ -> ]I'm still sort of confused at the 17-20 guys.

QBs clearly better than Andy...

Rodgers
Brady
P Manning
Brees
Rivers
Roethlisberger
Luck
Romo
Wilson
Ryan
Flacco (his postseason numbers since 2010 puts him ahead of any middle tier QBs)

Those are not even debatable at this point. That's 11 guys that have proven to be better than Andy (at least for now). If you have Andy higher than 12, you're flat out wrong. Sure, opinions can't technically be "wrong", but you're wrong.

Here's where it gets tricky. If you have him in the 17-20 tier, you have to put between 5-8 guys left ahead of Andy Dalton.

Carson Palmer - maybe
Matt Cassell - no
Cam Newton - arguable for sure
Jay Cutler - maybe
Jake McCown - no
Matt Stafford - arguable
Bobby Hoyer - lol Bobby. But no.
Blake Bortles - I honestly think he can/will be better, huge Bortles fan, but he's not right now
Alex Smith - no
Ryan Tannehill - maybe
Teddy Bridgewater - see Bortles
Eli Manning - probably better than Andy
Geno Smith - no
Derek Carr - see Bortles
Sam Bradford - no
Colin Kaepernick - maybe
Nick Foles - no
Jameis Winston - no
Marcus Mariota - no
Robert Griffin III - no

Similar to bfine's lists except we see things slightly different at times. I have a hard time with 17-20 because that would mean that almost all of the guys that are arguable or maybe better than Andy would have to go ahead of him. I can see definitely putting a couple ahead, but 5-7? That's tough, even for someone that doesn't think he's a great QB. I don't even think there's a way to argue that he's 21 or worse either.

With everyone healthy around him, he's closer to 10 than he is 20.

(07-13-2015, 04:48 PM)fredtoast Wrote: [ -> ]We are talking about the talent of the receiver not the QB, and Wallace was one of the best WR in the league in Pittsburgh.  He averaged over 1000 per year his 4 seasons there.  He led the league with a 19.4 avg in '09 and averaged 21.0 yards per catch with 1200+ yards in '10.

And AJ still makes him look like a bag of dicks.  He runs one route.  And he's nowhere near the elite receivers in this league.  Not even close.

Calvin Johnson

Dez
AJ
D Thomas
J Jones
L Fitz
B Marsh
Beckham
Nelson

Those are elite names.  

(07-13-2015, 04:31 PM)t3r3e3 Wrote: [ -> ]I don't buy that.  Dalton's best year had AJ, a healthy Marvin Jones, Andrew Hawkins, Sanu, Gresham, Eifert, and Bernard as receiving weapons.

Tannehill had head case Mike Wallace, Brian Hartline, Jarvis Landry, Rishard Matthews, Charles Clay, and Lamar Miller.  And the O line sucked post Incognito.  Tannehill has some weapons, but the cast isn't as good as in Dalton's career year.  Wallace is a nine route specialist playing with a QB who struggles with deep ball accuracy.  Hartline is a career 3rd WR low upside possession receiver.  Landry is a rich man's Hartline, who should develop into a lower to medium end WR 2.  Clay is a decent move TE/ H back, and is a small upgrade over Gresham.  Matthews is nothing special.  Lamar Miller is a decent back, but doesn't have Gio's receiving chops.  Miami will be interesting this year, because half of that receiving corps is gone.

I have Tannehill over Dalton, but I'm not sure why people are downplaying the weapons around Tannehill.

AJ > Wallace (but Wallace is a solid #1, and the idea that he just lines up and runs nothing but "go" routes is asinine)
Hartline > the combination of Simpson/Binns/MLJ/Sanu
Landry = MLJ or Sanu
Clay = Gresh
Miller/Reggie Bush = BJGE/Gio/Hill (with Hill we're better, before Hill not so much)

As bad as many ( my self included)think Dalton, is. a lot of teams would love to have him. I put him middle of the pack. If he was ranked 31st, he's bengals qb until that changes go Dalton•••••

(07-13-2015, 04:48 PM)fredtoast Wrote: [ -> ]We are talking about the talent of the receiver not the QB, and Wallace was one of the best WR in the league in Pittsburgh.  He averaged over 1000 per year his 4 seasons there.  He led the league with a 19.4 avg in '09 and averaged 21.0 yards per catch with 1200+ yards in '10.




Hartline has two 1000+ yard seasons, and his career yards per reception (14.2) is a full yard better than Jones (13.2)


He had more receptions and receiving yards last year than either Sanu or Jones have ever had in their careers.


[quote pid='28496' dateline='1436815909']
t3r3e3
   Clay is a decent move TE/ H back, and is a small upgrade over Gresham. 

You admit he was better than Gresham

And finally you don't even mention Brandon Gibson who had two 50+ reception seasons with the Rams before coming to Miami.
[/quote]


Wallace wasn't even the best WR on the Pittsburgh team, and is a limited route runner with selfish tendencies. AJ blows Wallace out of the water.
Marvin Jones had a better season than anything Hartline, Brandon Gibson, or Landry has ever put up. Way more TD's, more yards per game, etc... Hartline is a low upside, high volume dependent possession receiver. He might get to 90 catches, but only nets around 1k yards and around 3-5 touchdowns. There's no upside there. Landry is a slow footed possession receiver, albeit one who runs exceptional routes and has a future in the league, especially playing with a QB of Tannehill's talents. Clay is a bit better than Gresham as a receiving threat, but is arguably a worse blocker. Andrew Hawkins is arguably a better slot WR than anyone Miami has. And we're talking abut Brandon Gibson during Tannehill's best season, and not the pre injury Brandon Gibson, still of middling talent, who played for StL. And I remind you again that Miami's line is absolutely terrible. I don't think you're winning here counselor. Some of the jurors seem to have spoken in the last few posts.

(07-13-2015, 07:32 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: [ -> ]I have Tannehill over Dalton, but I'm not sure why people are downplaying the weapons around Tannehill.

AJ > Wallace (but Wallace is a solid #1, and the idea that he just lines up and runs nothing but "go" routes is asinine)
Hartline > the combination of Simpson/Binns/MLJ/Sanu
Landry = MLJ or Sanu
Clay = Gresh
Miller/Reggie Bush = BJGE/Gio/Hill (with Hill we're better, before Hill not so much)

I was speaking strictly on Dalton's weapons during his best season, and Tannehill's during his. It seems obvious that Dalton had the better line, and had better collection of receiving threats. Tannehill's weren't terrible, but they weren't as good as Dalton's in 2013. Tell me I'm wrong here. Fred tried and wasn't very convincing.

(07-13-2015, 10:24 PM)t3r3e3 Wrote: [ -> ]Marvin Jones had a better season than anything Hartline, Brandon Gibson, or Landry has ever put up.

Marvin Jones total three year career numbers....69 rec...913 yds...13.2 avg


Hartline single season '12......74 rec....1083 yds....14.6 avg
Hartline single season '13......76 rec....1016 tds.....13.4 avg

(07-14-2015, 01:28 AM)fredtoast Wrote: [ -> ]Marvin Jones total three year career numbers....69 rec...913 yds...13.2 avg


Hartline single season '12......74 rec....1083 yds....14.6 avg
Hartline single season '13......76 rec....1016 tds.....13.4 avg

 
This is a classic example of the facts stated and the opinions (emotions) deleted.

MJ has had one good, not great year so some Bengals fans start putting our weapons as elite.

The reality is when you look at our skilled players (WR and TE), we have a great AJ and then average to below average weapons other than AJ making our group good and not close to elite or great.

Our fans in an effort to make our QB look bad love to overcompensate for our weapons and undercompensate for other teams weapons. I believe I have seen numerous articles and none say our WR/TE is in the top 10 in the league.

(07-14-2015, 09:54 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: [ -> ]Our fans in an effort to make our QB look bad love to overcompensate for our weapons and undercompensate for other teams weapons. I believe I have seen numerous articles and none say our WR/TE is in the top 10 in the league.

There are also fans that go out of their way in an effort to make our QB look good by underrating our WR/TE/RBs over the years and inflating the ability of other teams around the league. It goes both ways.

I believe I have seen numerous articles that are bullshit and most people bash analysts until they come up with something that goes along with their opinion, then all of a sudden analysts' opinions become gospel.

Brian Hartline is a decent receiver. It's funny that Fred must have "forgot" to add certain stats, like MLJ's 1 year TD total being only 2 less than Brian Hartline's entire 6 year career. Marvin only saw around 550 snaps in that season, is it really his fault that the coaching staff didn't realize that he's better than Sanu, Binns, and any of the other receivers that should have been behind him since his rookie season???

Hartline saw 1,000 yard seasons because he was thrown at 128 and 134 times in those years. When you have a garbage receiving corp, someone HAS to get the targets and yards, right?? Hartline essentially being a #1 for a couple of seasons shows how mediocre the talent in Miami was. He actually reminds me a lot of Mohamed Sanu in the sense that you're probably not happy if he's your teams #1, you're not thrilled if he's the #2 but not too mad about it, and you're very happy if he's the #3 receiver and targeted less than many others on the team. A.J. Green, MLJ, Eifert, and probably even Gio Bernard would see more looks than Brian Hartline if he played in Cincinnati with a healthy receiving corp.

I do feel for Andy that he had to be throwing the ball to guys like Armon Binns, Brandon Tate, Sanu as a #1, and others over his career, but my point is basically that he has no excuses when the receivers are healthy. We have a very good group here right now IF they can stay on the field.