(03-27-2021, 12:07 AM)SErebel11 Wrote: I keep seeing plug and play OL guys being mentioned particularly in later rounds. Here are the grades of the 2020 draft class.
Expecting a rookie to be really good their first season and not be a liability on the OL particularly in pass protection is not ideal especially on the IOL. The last column is offensive snaps taken.

Plug and play in the later rounds isn't realistic at any position.  In the early 2nd round, given that this is a very strong OL class, I think you have a pretty good shot.  

(03-27-2021, 12:23 AM)Whatever Wrote: Plug and play in the later rounds isn't realistic at any position.  In the early 2nd round, given that this is a very strong OL class, I think you have a pretty good shot.  

You can get a legit number 3 receiver in the 3rd round

First 2 rounds goes to offensive line. No more playing around. The line has been this team’s number 1 issue since 2016

(03-27-2021, 12:24 AM)Frank Booth Wrote: First 2 rounds goes to offensive line. No more playing around. The line has been this team’s number 1 issue since 2016

The last time we did that (Ogbuehi/Fisher) it set us back years. Not saying we shouldn’t, but it’s obviously no guarantee that the OL will be fixed. If there’s 2 guys that are at the top of their board, great, but I don’t want them locked on to any one position. That’s a good way to miss out on better players.

(03-27-2021, 12:34 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: The last time we did that (Ogbuehi/Fisher) it set us back years. Not saying we shouldn’t, but it’s obviously no guarantee that the OL will be fixed. If there’s 2 guys that are at the top of their board, great, but I don’t want them locked on to any one position. That’s a good way to miss out on better players.

Ogbuehi was the 4th or 5th tackle taken off the board. Bengals had late draft picks

This lineman class is considered deep, and bengals have early draft picks.

Of course it’s no guarantee, but a tackle taken very early in the draft is more likely to succeed than a tackle taken later. There’s more successful first round tackles than 2nd round tackles.

In this wide receiver friendly league of the NFL, you can find quality players in the 3rd and 4th round.

Much harder to find a solid lineman in the 3rd round.

(03-27-2021, 12:39 AM)Frank Booth Wrote: Ogbuehi was the 4th or 5th tackle taken off the board. Bengals had late draft picks

This lineman class is considered deep, and bengals have early draft picks.

Of course it’s no guarantee, but a tackle taken very early in the draft is more likely to succeed than a tackle taken later. There’s more successful first round tackles than 2nd round tackles.

In this wide receiver friendly league of the NFL, you can find quality players in the 3rd and 4th round.

Much harder to find a solid lineman in the 3rd round.

Well, it’s not like WR is our only other big need. I just wouldn’t want to leave a really good Edge like Basham or even a DT like Nixon on the board to take an offensive lineman that we have lower on our board. Now if Leatherwood or Eichenberg or someone else is there and you can make a case they’re the BPA anyway then sure.

(03-27-2021, 12:44 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Well, it’s not like WR is our only other big need. I just wouldn’t want to leave a really good Edge like Basham or even a DT like Nixon on the board to take an offensive lineman that we have lower on our board. Now if Leatherwood or Eichenberg or someone else is there and you can make a case they’re the BPA anyway then sure.

I’m part of the camp that says protect Burrow at all costs. Nobody should feel good about Hopkins/price at center and XSF at guard.

You must protect joe burrow. This organization already screwed up last season. Wide receiver is the least of our concerns. I wouldn’t even draft one until round 4 or later. O-linemen and edge rushers, like you said.

This notion that burrow needs another weapon is ridiculous. Burrow makes the players around him better. This isn’t a Dalton situation where you have to surround him with exceptional weapons. Burrow isn’t Marc Bulger

Burrow can take average guys, and turn them good. Turn good players into great players

Protect him. Help the running game.

Hopkins/Price and XSF should not be starting this season. Or next. Or ever again

(03-27-2021, 12:13 AM)Frank Booth Wrote: Take All pros and pro bowls with a grain of salt since we know bengals get snubbed all the time, so don’t bring that crap in here. That’s like saying Whitworth wasn’t great from 2007-2013 because he didn’t make a pro bowl or all pro.

Yes, Boyd is an ELITE slot receiver.

Boyd was 7th in the league in receptions before Burrow got injured. Higgins was on pace for 1200+ yards. Of course their production dropped once the back ups came in. Higgins and Boyd were dealing with back ups playing behind the worst line in the league

You brushing off Boyd and Higgins is just beyond disrespectful and silly.

Listen, I pay more attention to football than you.

Referencing pff has already been established as a joke, and must be taken with a grain of salt.

You paid 0 attention to the bills in 2020. That’s all I can tell you.

Allen had Brown in 2019 when Brown was still good, it’s just that Allen completely improved in 2020 including his pocket presence and accuracy. Don’t give all the credit to Diggs. He’s the only real weapon they have

Green Bay has the best WR in the league and... Valdez scantling? That dude stinks. He’s good for 1 catch a game for 60 yards. Good deep threat I suppose, but he’s not all that. That other receiver they have is OK but he’s injured constantly. The TE Tonyan is good

But keep referencing pff to cover the fact that you don’t watch enough football. Boyd and Higgins is one of the better wr combos in the league, and a QB like Burrow makes them better.

Just like how Allen makes Diggs and Beasley better. Just like Rodgers makes Tonyan better. Just like Mahomes makes demarcus robinson better

Now go to sleep

AJ and Geno had no problems racking up All Pro honors and Pro Bowls.  But they were actually elite players.  What about the NFL 100?  His fellow players don't see him as elite, either.  The Pro Bowl voting is very stat driven, anyways, and 5 different Bengal pass catchers have made it since '05, so it stands to reason that if Boyd deserved it, he would have gotten it by now.

Higgins was not on pace for 1200 yards before Burrow got hurt.  He had 629 receiving yards through week 10, which pro rated out would have put him at 1006.  7th in receptions?  Great.  He was only in double digit yards/target twice last year.  His 6 catches for 41 yard performance against the Steelers was so impressive.  

You have given no response on how Boyd is elite based on any kind of film study.  You just keep saying Boyd is elite over and over again, but you can't say how he's elite, so there's no reason for anyone to think you're a highly knowledgeable fan that breaks down All 22 and can compare Boyd's tape to other top slot WR's and elaborate on why he's elite and what makes him so. You have shown me nothing to make me think you're more knowledgeable about the game than I or the average board member is.  I've never said PFF is the gospel, but you've exhibited no football expertise that makes me think you're more football smart than them or the AP voters that vote on the All Pro team.  You seem like the typical homer that watches the game with beer goggles on, if at all, and tries to overrate our good players as elite talent.  Not to mention the fact that I never referenced PFF in regards to Boyd and Higgins, only the Bills' OL.  And even then, discarding their grades entirely, it's still an OL comprised of a couple of 2nd round picks and B/C tier FA's.  

Green Bay is tied with KC for the 2nd most YAC per completion at 5.5 YAC per Completion.  The Bengals are tied for 25th at 3.9.  Boyd averages 4.4, more than a yard less than those teams' averages.  Yup, elite.  

(03-27-2021, 01:17 AM)Whatever Wrote: AJ and Geno had no problems racking up All Pro honors and Pro Bowls.  But they were actually elite players.  What about the NFL 100?  His fellow players don't see him as elite, either.  The Pro Bowl voting is very stat driven, anyways, and 5 different Bengal pass catchers have made it since '05, so it stands to reason that if Boyd deserved it, he would have gotten it by now.

Higgins was not on pace for 1200 yards before Burrow got hurt.  He had 629 receiving yards through week 10, which pro rated out would have put him at 1006.  7th in receptions?  Great.  He was only in double digit yards/target twice last year.  His 6 catches for 41 yard performance against the Steelers was so impressive.  

You have given no response on how Boyd is elite based on any kind of film study.  You just keep saying Boyd is elite over and over again, but you can't say how he's elite, so there's no reason for anyone to think you're a highly knowledgeable fan that breaks down All 22 and can compare Boyd's tape to other top slot WR's and elaborate on why he's elite and what makes him so. You have shown me nothing to make me think you're more knowledgeable about the game than I or the average board member is.  I've never said PFF is the gospel, but you've exhibited no football expertise that makes me think you're more football smart than them or the AP voters that vote on the All Pro team.  You seem like the typical homer that watches the game with beer goggles on, if at all, and tries to overrate our good players as elite talent.  Not to mention the fact that I never referenced PFF in regards to Boyd and Higgins, only the Bills' OL.  And even then, discarding their grades entirely, it's still an OL comprised of a couple of 2nd round picks and B/C tier FA's.  

Green Bay is tied with KC for the 2nd most YAC per completion at 5.5 YAC per Completion.  The Bengals are tied for 25th at 3.9.  Boyd averages 4.4, more than a yard less than those teams' averages.  Yup, elite.  

So you’re saying Whitworth wasn’t great from 2007-2013? Because you know, no pro bowls.

Geno and Green were legit top of their positions.

Godwin had 1 great year. Only 1 year over 1000 yards. But every other year from him, Boyd eclipses. Boyd has 2 1000 yard seasons

And Boyd has been dealing with back ups ever since he broke out in 2018.

And in 2018-2020 Green was either completely absent, injured for most of the season, or just washed up. Aka 2020 aj green

So Boyd has put up back to back 1000 yard seasons as THE guy for 75% of the time, and with back ups playing the majority of 2018, and Finley playing like 4 games in 2019.

Really, you need a bit of context.

And the whole point of the slot receiver is to be a guy who racks up the catches, not so much yards. That’s more the outside guys.

Do not, do not ever throw out pro bowls as a reference for which players are better than others.

Because you’re defending pro bowl selections, yet if I brought up Whitworth, you’d blow him off as not that good because he doesn’t have enough pro bowl selections.

(03-27-2021, 12:24 AM)Frank Booth Wrote: You can get a legit number 3 receiver in the 3rd round

First 2 rounds goes to offensive line. No more playing around. The line has been this team’s number 1 issue since 2016

People like to throw around 600 yards as all that's needed out of a WR3.  Last year was considered a generational WR class with it's depth.  35 WR's were picked.  Only 7 had 600+ yards as a rookie.  All 7 of them were taken in the 1st or 2nd round.  If you drop your criteria down to 500+ yards, you only get to 8 and still all of them drafted in the 1st or 2nd round.  Getting a decent WR3 as a rookie in the 3rd isn't realistic.  Yeah, guys fall through the cracks, but that happens at every position group and WR is one of the most heavily drafted positions.  

(03-27-2021, 01:31 AM)Whatever Wrote: People like to throw around 600 yards as all that's needed out of a WR3.  Last year was considered a generational WR class with it's depth.  35 WR's were picked.  Only 7 had 600+ yards as a rookie.  All 7 of them were taken in the 1st or 2nd round.  If you drop your criteria down to 500+ yards, you only get to 8 and still all of them drafted in the 1st or 2nd round.  Getting a decent WR3 as a rookie in the 3rd isn't realistic.  Yeah, guys fall through the cracks, but that happens at every position group and WR is one of the most heavily drafted positions.  

Do we need big time contribution from our wr 3 immediately?

I’m all for giving a wr who’s drafted in the 3rd or later a couple years to develop.

Fix the line. Help the run game. Higgins and Boyd are absolutely fine and not the problem. Joe Burrow can get it done with those guys. Joe Burrow isn’t Andy Dalton.

(03-26-2021, 02:43 PM)Synric Wrote: There is a solid possibility 4 QBs go 1-4....

Which makes the Dolphins trading back to 6 a brilliant move. They'll get either Sewell, Chase or Pitts...AND all those picks they got for trading down. Amazing job on their part.

Also good for the Bengals, seeing how there's no way a team gives up that much for anything other than a QB. We should be all set to take Sewell.

(03-27-2021, 01:30 AM)Frank Booth Wrote: So you’re saying Whitworth wasn’t great from 2007-2013? Because you know, no pro bowls.

Geno and Green were legit top of their positions.

Godwin had 1 great year. Only 1 year over 1000 yards. But every other year from him, Boyd eclipses. Boyd has 2 1000 yard seasons

And Boyd has been dealing with back ups ever since he broke out in 2018.

And in 2018-2020 Green was either completely absent, injured for most of the season, or just washed up. Aka 2020 aj green

So Boyd has put up back to back 1000 yard seasons as THE guy for 75% of the time, and with back ups playing the majority of 2018, and Finley playing like 4 games in 2019.

Really, you need a bit of context.

And the whole point of the slot receiver is to be a guy who racks up the catches, not so much yards. That’s more the outside guys.

Do not, do not ever throw out pro bowls as a reference for which players are better than others.

Because you’re defending pro bowl selections, yet if I brought up Whitworth, you’d blow him off as not that good because he doesn’t have enough pro bowl selections.

Whit made the Pro Bowl in '12.  If we're being honest, Whit was a great pass blocker, but a mediocre run blocker and he was the captain of units that folded like napkins in Primetime and in the playoffs.

Godwin was 13th in the league in yards/target last year.  He averaged 70 yards a game to Boyd's 56.1. The only reason Boyd has outproduced Godwin is Godwin gets dinged up a lot and misses games and Boyd is extremely durable.  

Jameis Winston is a back up. What's your point?  

Boyd had 148 targets last year.  It would be nearly impossible for any decent WR to not hit 1000 yards getting thrown to that much.

There were 14 TE's that averaged more yards a target than Boyd last year, as well as 2 RB's.  

Whit's a 3 time All Pro and a 4 time Pro Bowler.  He gets plenty of recognition.  

Boyd is what he is.  He's a good slot possession WR that struggles outside.  He's not elite.  He's a complementary piece.  

Boyd is a solid WR2 regardless of where he lines up, and Higgins just had one of the best rookie seasons in team history. We are fine at WR. All we need there is some speed on the outside, but it doesn't need to be an elite player or top pick. Some depth would also be nice.

(03-27-2021, 01:49 AM)Whatever Wrote: Whit made the Pro Bowl in '12.  If we're being honest, Whit was a great pass blocker, but a mediocre run blocker and he was the captain of units that folded like napkins in Primetime and in the playoffs.

Godwin was 13th in the league in yards/target last year.  He averaged 70 yards a game to Boyd's 56.1. The only reason Boyd has outproduced Godwin is Godwin gets dinged up a lot and misses games and Boyd is extremely durable.  

Jameis Winston is a back up. What's your point?  

Boyd had 148 targets last year.  It would be nearly impossible for any decent WR to not hit 1000 yards getting thrown to that much.

There were 14 TE's that averaged more yards a target than Boyd last year, as well as 2 RB's.  

Whit's a 3 time All Pro and a 4 time Pro Bowler.  He gets plenty of recognition.  

Boyd is what he is.  He's a good slot possession WR that struggles outside.  He's not elite.  He's a complementary piece.  

Whit became all pro once the team went 12-4 in 2015. He gets way more recognitions in LA though.

Ok so 2007-2011 if I said Whitworth was elite, you’d say no. Because you VALUE pro bowls so much.

Winston is a back up now, but Winston made the PRO BOWL in Tampa 1 year, and also lead the league in passing yards his last year in Tampa.

So do not compare Tampa Winston to the guys who backed up dalton and burrow

Boyd is a great slot receiver. He just is.

And Higgins is going to ball out this season.

And once again you missed a crucial point that I made

Boyd since breaking out in 2018 has played most of his games with back up quarter backs.

This is just a fact. The best receivers in the league would see a decrease in production when you’re playing with Brandon Allen, Ryan Finley, and Jeff freaking Driskell.

We’ve yet to see Boyd play a full season with his starting qb.

We saw he was top 10 in catches in 2020 before the burrow injury. What do you think’s gonna happen when Burrow stays healthy all season?

I say top 10 in catches and 1200+ yards and a pro bowl snub. But some guy with less yards on a more popular team will get in, and you’ll say that guy is better than Boyd because Boyd didn’t make the pro bowl

I think the whole “Burrow doesn’t need elite weapons” thing is pretty exaggerated. He’s never proven that. His LSU offense was stacked (Chase, Jefferson, Marshall). And as impressive as he was in Cincinnati, it’s not like our offense was great. Particularly in the red zone.

Obviously protecting him takes priority, but he absolutely needs another weapon on the outside. Especially if we’re content with the TE’s we currently have.

(03-26-2021, 03:31 PM)jj22 Wrote: The same people defending this FA period are the same people calling for Pitts/Chase.

If this FA period was as successful as they say, then those would be options. Unfortunately, it wasn't and thus a pick other then Sewell will be panned everywhere, and the lack of protection and focus on the Oline will be the story heading into the season. We saw this when they went with Higgins over an Olineman at 33 last year. It isn't like them ignoring the line didn't just happen last offseason to horrific results. Have folks forgot?

You want the luxury pick? Do what the Charges did for their star QB. For them, the draft is open. For us, there's calls to make the same mistake we've made over the years, which is going for the shiny toy while our QB gets destroyed.

If Jonah is their LT as they claim, I’m certain they believe they can find a RT or OG later in than draft than #5. Someone like Leatherwood at the top of round 2. Chase at #5 and Leatherwood in round 2 would be two Day 1 plug and play starters and the start to a very good to excellent draft.

(03-26-2021, 03:54 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And Bench Reiff for a rookie?



You really crack me up sometimes.

I wouldn’t expect all 4 to start, but provide some depth which is also needed.

(03-27-2021, 12:24 AM)Frank Booth Wrote: You can get a legit number 3 receiver in the 3rd round

First 2 rounds goes to offensive line. No more playing around. The line has been this team’s number 1 issue since 2016

That's where you are wrong. We are not looking for a #3 receiver,we are replacing green who played the x spot ,outside receiver. Higgins played ok for a rookie but he isn't that good to be trusted as a #1. Tyler boyd doesn't have the speed to stretch the field ,he's a good route runner and a good slot receiver. We need a X player who's going to need to play a lot like aj green did for us last year. Yes he wasn't that productive,but he still played that spot and took the corner. You are treating them two receivers like big time weapons and they aren't! You are over valuing them..that's why I think the Bengals will take chase,he's an outside receiver that will produce right away. 

Even when I look for ways to draft Kyle Pitts I dont see it happening because they aren't going to line up Kyle pitts on the outside a lot and they already have slot covered by boyd. I like pitts better then chase but it's not going to happen. Sure we could draft late round receiver, but the later rounds you go you cant really rely on them year 1 and play a lot of spot x,starter. 

Also you are thinking they will draft Sewell #5 overall and put him at guard? Or move guys that dont want to be moved ,I dont see it happening, and then like I said still have to draft 2-3 other receivers,and hope a later round guy can play all year at X outside receiver and be heavily relied on. 

(03-27-2021, 02:51 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I think the whole “Burrow doesn’t need elite weapons” thing is pretty exaggerated. He’s never proven that. His LSU offense was stacked (Chase, Jefferson, Marshall). And as impressive as he was in Cincinnati, it’s not like our offense was great. Particularly in the red zone.

Obviously protecting him takes priority, but he absolutely needs another weapon on the outside. Especially if we’re content with the TE’s we currently have.

So you're saying Burrow needs to be surrounded with talent like Dalton?

I thought an elite QB would elevate his teammates?

If Burrow NEEDS an elite receiver, he isn't as good as some say he is. Boyd and Higgins are not bums. They will catch their fair share if the ball in placed correctly. Burrow can do that, as long as there isn't a D-lineman about to crush him. Would be nice to see what he could do with a great pocket to throw from.