(04-03-2021, 12:05 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: 1.) Keep in mind, there is one thing you can bet on (in NFL scouting) and win every time – whatever WR prospect the NFL deems as ‘the best’, the first (or second) WR taken in drafts…then that/those wide receiver(s) FOR SURE will NOT be the best NFL WRs from that particular draft within 1-3 years of looking back. 

2.) In 2020, Ruggs-Jeudy went #1-2 off the board and that was a monumental mistake. Those guys aren’t even in the top 5-10 among WR talents from that class. That doesn’t mean they stink…just means they are not ‘the best’ or ‘elite’…or worthy of such high draft picks.

Man, this is one of the dumber things I've ever read.  (Seriously, no offense to you, this is directed to the author of it).  He actually makes some good points later on, but these two things kind of negate everything that follows it.

1.)  FOR SURE?  Uh, did this guy not see the AJ Green and Julio Jones draft?  Those guys weren't the best receivers from their class?

I just checked some other drafts where names stood out to see how this holds up...

Amari Cooper is easily the best receiver taken in the 2015 draft.  Demayrius Thomas and Dez Bryant are the best WR's in the 2010 class.  Calvin Johnson is the best receiver taken from the 2007 class.  Larry Fitzgerald is the best receiver taken from the 2004 class.

Like I said, the guy has some other decent examples, but this statement is just flat out wrong.  There's nothing to show that the first receievers off the board are guaranteed to not be the best player in their class. 

Not to mention, what's he's saying isn't unique to that position.  As much as you can you can point to first receiver off the board often not being the best of his class you can do it with other positions as well.  It's simple odds. 

2.) How in the hell can he already say Ruggs and Jeudy aren't worthy of their picks and won't be elite? 

They're "not even in the top 5-10 among WR talents from that class"?  Is this a joke?  This guy can't be serious, right?

Jerry Jeudy just had 853 yards receiving with Drew Lock and Jeff Driskel as his QB's.  One of his games they actually had to convert a practice squad wide receiver to QB for a game because of Covid cases.

Can anyone find me 5-10 WR's in that class that are definitely better?  (Jefferson, Higgins, Claypool????)

It's only been one year, so it's way too early to call this one.  And there's certainly not 5-10 guys who were better.

The only iron clad guarantee I know of if things go south quick is that some republican will pray for rain.. Minus that I simply don't believe in iron clad guaranteed athletes. Injuries happen every season and more and more athletes get injured every season. Sometimes they recover quick, but there's no guarantee. Some just give up and find another way to make a living..Still, no guarantees..Some look great playing college ball, but all too often they play against players who will never sniff the NFL much less have HOF careers..
I've decided I'm in the Sewell camp, but since my phone has yet to ring from PBS asking my egg spurt opinion I'll leave it at that..

(04-03-2021, 07:50 AM)spazz70 Wrote: So, just like the CBs he will be playing against every game in the NFL?  Just saying, the NFL CBs are going to be a lot better.

Henderson was also a junior at that point, so more polished and with an extra year of game experience and Chase still came out on top against him.  Murdock was literally nit picking Chase because he didn't make the #9 OA pick look like a complete clown and pimping Sewell for not giving up a sack to Day 3 picks that will probably be backups if they hang around the league at all. Not to mention Jefferson was an All Pro last year and Florida decided to put their top CB on Chase.

The thing with both Chase and Sewell is the tape we have on them is from their sophomore years.  Neither guy is a finished product on film.  Chase wasn't a polished route runner.  Sewell gets his hands outside the defender's shoulder pads and grabs a ton, which will be holding in the pros.  These are technique issues that can be cleaned up.

(04-03-2021, 03:33 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Except, he is right when you watch Chase play Florida, see the video above. 

The point of Chase was supposed to be... he creates separation, Burrow needs WRs that can get open. Dude, he's covered and covered well, in more reps then he is open.

Again, the guy writing it is wrong on the measurables, and he seems salty, but after I read it, I watched the video... and it shows a guy that might be good at the next level, but this isn't some super special, generational, never before seen talent that everyone on here is claiming.

Man, that term 'generational talent' is getting thrown around so much anymore, by so many people. 

Sewell will most likely be a terrific lineman for many years. Chase will probably be a terrific WR for many years. However, I doubt either will turn out to be 'generational'. 

That term should be reserved for talents like Jim Brown, Anthony Munoz, Jerry Rice, Reggie White, etc. Those guys were generational talents because they played at an insanely high level for a long period of time. Like I said, I expect Sewell and Chase to be outstanding players...but generational talents? Not so much.

How about we stop tearing each other (and other players) down for a bit?

The POV of the Sewell crowd IS valid - Sewell is the consensus #1 rated Tackle in this draft and the OL was (for at least part of last season) epically bad.

On the other hand, the POV of the Chase crowd is ALSO valid. Chase is an out and out playmaker. And in our offense it would let us run out a 3 WR (which is our base) set of Higgins, Chase and Boyd. This is pretty radically different than what we usually have which is 1 or 2 sound receivers and then scrubs. This is also the logic with the Pitts advocates; the difference there was until we signed Reiff it would be hard for a TE for us to go out and catch passes.

Sewell, Chase, Pitts....we're going to get a high end prospect no matter who we end up with.

I guess the big factor is what you think the "state of the OL" is right now. To me, we are definitely in a better spot than we were a lot of last season. Reiff is a huge upgrade over Hart. And the actual stats (not PFF synthetic ratings the actual stats) showed that once we had Spain and XSF at the Guard spots the interior line issues largely stopped. Add in that Turner is gone and Pollack is in and the prognosis is better.

So, if to you the line prognosis is sufficiently good then players like Pitts and Chase enter the picture. If not, then it would be either Sewell or (if it were me) trade back with, say, the Pats and still be positioned well to get Vera Tucker.

(04-03-2021, 04:19 PM)Joelist Wrote: How about we stop tearing each other (and other players) down for a bit?

It's almost as if WJ3 was referencing some on this board.

(04-03-2021, 01:45 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Man, that term 'generational talent' is getting thrown around so much anymore, by so many people. 

Sewell will most likely be a terrific lineman for many years. Chase will probably be a terrific WR for many years. However, I doubt either will turn out to be 'generational'. 

That term should be reserved for talents like Jim Brown, Anthony Munoz, Jerry Rice, Reggie White, etc. Those guys were generational talents because they played at an insanely high level for a long period of time. Like I said, I expect Sewell and Chase to be outstanding players...but generational talents? Not so much.

This. Every year there's "generational" talent coming out of the draft, or at least that's what people say. I think a lot of it is just the players agents AND the NFL are hyping up players (the NFL would do it so they can get more views for the draft).

(04-03-2021, 01:45 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Man, that term 'generational talent' is getting thrown around so much anymore, by so many people. 

Sewell will most likely be a terrific lineman for many years. Chase will probably be a terrific WR for many years. However, I doubt either will turn out to be 'generational'. 

That term should be reserved for talents like Jim Brown, Anthony Munoz, Jerry Rice, Reggie White, etc. Those guys were generational talents because they played at an insanely high level for a long period of time. Like I said, I expect Sewell and Chase to be outstanding players...but generational talents? Not so much.

Pitts fits this definition much more IMO.

6'6" 250 pound TE/WR that can run a 4.44 forty that runs crisp routes and has great hands...

Calvin Johnsonesque but bigger and faster.

If there is a generational talent in this Draft Kyle Pitts is that guy.

(04-03-2021, 04:19 PM)Joelist Wrote: How about we stop tearing each other (and other players) down for a bit?

The POV of the Sewell crowd IS valid - Sewell is the consensus #1 rated Tackle in this draft and the OL was (for at least part of last season) epically bad.

On the other hand, the POV of the Chase crowd is ALSO valid. Chase is an out and out playmaker. And in our offense it would let us run out a 3 WR (which is our base) set of Higgins, Chase and Boyd. This is pretty radically different than what we usually have which is 1 or 2 sound receivers and then scrubs. This is also the logic with the Pitts advocates; the difference there was until we signed Reiff it would be hard for a TE for us to go out and catch passes.

Sewell, Chase, Pitts....we're going to get a high end prospect no matter who we end up with.

I guess the big factor is what you think the "state of the OL" is right now. To me, we are definitely in a better spot than we were a lot of last season. Reiff is a huge upgrade over Hart. And the actual stats (not PFF synthetic ratings the actual stats) showed that once we had Spain and XSF at the Guard spots the interior line issues largely stopped. Add in that Turner is gone and Pollack is in and the prognosis is better.

So, if to you the line prognosis is sufficiently good then players like Pitts and Chase enter the picture. If not, then it would be either Sewell or (if it were me) trade back with, say, the Pats and still be positioned well to get Vera Tucker.

Well said, anyway we go we can't really mess it up. We are in a great spot and even a greater spot after the Dolphins trade.

Vera-Tucker would also be more than fine with me in a trade back, as would be Slater or Darrisaw.

Don't get why some have to be so pissy round here. We all agree O-line needs upgraded and the Draft is deep at OT and also 
has some good interior Lineman that can be had in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. We are in a great spot at the right time to improve
our biggest weaknesses.

(04-03-2021, 06:02 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Pitts fits this definition much more IMO.

6'6" 250 pound TE/WR that can run a 4.44 forty that runs crisp routes and has great hands...

Calvin Johnsonesque but bigger and faster.

If there is a generational talent in this Draft Kyle Pitts is that guy.


Well said, anyway we go we can't really mess it up. We are in a great spot and even a greater spot after the Dolphins trade.

Vera-Tucker would also be more than fine with me in a trade back, as would be Slater or Darrisaw.

Don't get why some have to be so pissy round here. We all agree O-line needs upgraded and the Draft is deep at OT and also 
has some good interior Lineman that can be had in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. We are in a great spot at the right time to improve
our biggest weaknesses.

I remember OJ Howard being a "generational" TE too.

(04-03-2021, 09:42 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: I remember OJ Howard being a "generational" TE too.

I don't remember people saying he was elite

(04-03-2021, 09:42 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: I remember OJ Howard being a "generational" TE too.

I don't remember that at all. 

OJ Howard was drafted 19th, so I'm not sure why that word would get used on a player that's not even taken in the top half of the round.  Not to mention, he's slower than Pitts, he has lower verticle leap, and his wingspan and hands are smaller.  Oh yeah, and he was a year older and was coming off a 595 yard, 3 TD Sr. Season.

(04-03-2021, 11:43 PM)BobJohnson55 Wrote: I don't remember people saying he was elite

(04-04-2021, 12:31 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I don't remember that at all. 

OJ Howard was drafted 19th, so I'm not sure why that word would get used on a player that's not even taken in the top half of the round.  Not to mention, he's slower than Pitts, he has lower verticle leap, and his wingspan and hands are smaller.  Oh yeah, and he was a year older and was coming off a 595 yard, 3 TD Sr. Season.

http://insidethepylon.com/nfl/2017-nfl-draft/2017/04/11/37878/

https://amp.charlotteobserver.com/sports/nfl/carolina-panthers/article146704184.html

https://www.thefantasyauthority.com/redraft/oj-howard-vs-david-njoku/
"Howard, to me, is one of the best prospects ever at tight end. He can start and produce right away and is the total package."

(04-04-2021, 12:32 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: http://insidethepylon.com/nfl/2017-nfl-draft/2017/04/11/37878/

https://amp.charlotteobserver.com/sports/nfl/carolina-panthers/article146704184.html

https://www.thefantasyauthority.com/redraft/oj-howard-vs-david-njoku/
"Howard, to me, is one of the best prospects ever at tight end. He can start and produce right away and is the total package."

So a couple articles got written that he was? Like they do every year of the top guys. I dont remember fans claiming he was generational talent that needs to be taken with the 5th pick. 

(04-04-2021, 02:15 AM)BobJohnson55 Wrote: So a couple articles got written that he was? Like they do every year of the top guys. I dont remember fans claiming he was generational talent that needs to be taken with the 5th pick. 

There was definitely talk of him at 9 before we took mega stud John Ross.

(04-03-2021, 06:02 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Pitts fits this definition much more IMO.

6'6" 250 pound TE/WR that can run a 4.44 forty that runs crisp routes and has great hands...

Calvin Johnsonesque but bigger and faster.

If there is a generational talent in this Draft Kyle Pitts is that guy.


Well said, anyway we go we can't really mess it up. We are in a great spot and even a greater spot after the Dolphins trade.

Vera-Tucker would also be more than fine with me in a trade back, as would be Slater or Darrisaw.

Don't get why some have to be so pissy round here. We all agree O-line needs upgraded and the Draft is deep at OT and also 
has some good interior Lineman that can be had in the 2nd and 3rd rounds. We are in a great spot at the right time to improve
our biggest weaknesses.

Calvin ran a 4.33 and was 237lbs and 6'5. Essentially the same size and a touch faster even.

I know I was touting Kyle Pitts just a couple days ago,  but allow me to temper expectations again.

He wouldn't be the first TE to garner this much hype going into a draft. The others didn't exactly live upto the hype.

His pro day numbers were good for a TE, but weren't the best ever,  even going back 15 years.  I think his wing span is undoubtedly the best,  but speed, bench press,  broad jump,  vertical jump etc, put him even with or below Vernon Davis.  EDIT: I don't have three cone drill numbers for Davis : END EDIT. Was Davis a very good player? Absolutely. Was he a "generational" talent? Not really.  I'm not sure there was ever a year he was considered to be the absolute number one at TE. TOP 5, probably,  but never the best (and if he was, then maybe just for one year).

Having said that,  would I take a player like Davis at 5 and be happy with his career? No doubt.  But what if I have to miss out on a perennial All Pro? I'd think that's another Bengals' luck situation. There's also no guarantee Pitts can live upto Vernon Davis standards,  let alone go above it. Do I think his wingspan advantage can take him there? There's a chance,  but that's about the only athletic advantage he has over Davis.

Again,  the question comes down to which position is critical to Bengals' overall team success? I'm again leaning towards Sewell,  but talk to me again in a couple of days,  and I might argue for drafting Chase or Pitts over him.  .

EDIT:
Difference in qb with Burrow over Alex Smith, would definitely help Pitts do better than Davis, but a lot of other things go into it as well.

(04-04-2021, 05:02 AM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: There was definitely talk of him at 9 before we took mega stud John Ross.

Yes with Bengals fans because we needed a healthy tight end,but fans from all over did not see him as a Kyle Pitts. He didn't have that type of hype. 

(04-03-2021, 01:45 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Man, that term 'generational talent' is getting thrown around so much anymore, by so many people. 

Sewell will most likely be a terrific lineman for many years. Chase will probably be a terrific WR for many years. However, I doubt either will turn out to be 'generational'. 

That term should be reserved for talents like Jim Brown, Anthony Munoz, Jerry Rice, Reggie White, etc. Those guys were generational talents because they played at an insanely high level for a long period of time. Like I said, I expect Sewell and Chase to be outstanding players...but generational talents? Not so much.

While I certainly agree with the thrust of what you are saying, I want to say this on Sewell. He is more than the run of the mill top OT prospect.

The kid is 20. He sat out last year. The year BEFORE that he won the Outland Trophy. First true sophmore ever to win it. Ever. The season he did so, he was 19 years old. 18 until October. Half the year. If he had not sat out, it is certainly possible (even likely) we'd be looking at a 2-time Outland winner. Which I will remind folks, is given to the best lineman in the country. Offensive OR defensive. The only other 2 time winner? Dave Remington, Nebraska. 

And for those focused on measurables, remember, the kid is 20. Turns 21 in October. He could still be growing. Even if not, he'll still fill out more.

I think those salivating over Chase and/or Pitts is understandable. For my money, Pitts is a generational TE prospect as a pass catcher. Period. And Chase is electric and has a history with Burrow. We need to both improve the OL & get speedy receivers.

But Sewell has accomplished things that true sophmore lineman have never before accomplished. And his is still a baby. Rather than giving Pollack lemons and asking him to make lemonade (which he can do), give him a gem and see what happens.

Am I gonna be frothing at the mouth if we take Chase or Pitts or trade down & pick Slater/Waddle/Smith or even Parsons? No. 

(04-04-2021, 02:13 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: While I certainly agree with the thrust of what you are saying, I want to say this on Sewell. He is more than the run of the mill top OT prospect.

The kid is 20. He sat out last year. The year BEFORE that he won the Outland Trophy. First true sophmore ever to win it. Ever. The season he did so, he was 19 years old. 18 until October. Half the year. If he had not sat out, it is certainly possible (even likely) we'd be looking at a 2-time Outland winner. Which I will remind folks, is given to the best lineman in the country. Offensive OR defensive. The only other 2 time winner? Dave Remington, Nebraska. 

And for those focused on measurables, remember, the kid is 20. Turns 21 in October. He could still be growing. Even if not, he'll still fill out more.

I think those salivating over Chase and/or Pitts is understandable. For my money, Pitts is a generational TE prospect as a pass catcher. Period. And Chase is electric and has a history with Burrow. We need to both improve the OL & get speedy receivers.

But Sewell has accomplished things that true sophmore lineman have never before accomplished. And his is still a baby. Rather than giving Pollack lemons and asking him to make lemonade (which he can do), give him a gem and see what happens.

Am I gonna be frothing at the mouth if we take Chase or Pitts or trade down & pick Slater/Waddle/Smith or even Parsons? No. 

I agree ,I'm not going to be mad if it's sewell ,chase ,or Pitts or even a trade down. I'll take any of that on this team. I just hope if they take sewell we will get a good receiver later on because we need that too. I like marquese Stevenson I think he could be a hidden gem. If we take chase I hope they take a 2nd round lineman. 

Edit- I'd love to draft pitts ,but that would make the draft for us complicated, because we will be putting off a o lineman or receiver until the later rounds. Even though pitts can line up everywhere he's not made to be an x outside receiver, and I heard only was on the outside 20% of the time.

(04-04-2021, 02:13 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: While I certainly agree with the thrust of what you are saying, I want to say this on Sewell. He is more than the run of the mill top OT prospect.

The kid is 20. He sat out last year. The year BEFORE that he won the Outland Trophy. First true sophmore ever to win it. Ever. The season he did so, he was 19 years old. 18 until October. Half the year. If he had not sat out, it is certainly possible (even likely) we'd be looking at a 2-time Outland winner. Which I will remind folks, is given to the best lineman in the country. Offensive OR defensive. The only other 2 time winner? Dave Remington, Nebraska. 

And for those focused on measurables, remember, the kid is 20. Turns 21 in October. He could still be growing. Even if not, he'll still fill out more.

I think those salivating over Chase and/or Pitts is understandable. For my money, Pitts is a generational TE prospect as a pass catcher. Period. And Chase is electric and has a history with Burrow. We need to both improve the OL & get speedy receivers.

But Sewell has accomplished things that true sophmore lineman have never before accomplished. And his is still a baby. Rather than giving Pollack lemons and asking him to make lemonade (which he can do), give him a gem and see what happens.

Am I gonna be frothing at the mouth if we take Chase or Pitts or trade down & pick Slater/Waddle/Smith or even Parsons? No. 

If we go Sewell/Chase we are either getting someone who won the Outland trophy at 19 or the Biletnikoff trophy at 19. I think we are going to have an amazing player either way.