(04-17-2021, 02:53 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: We wouldn't be having this discussion if Chase played at any other school than LSU.  I look back at this year and can't really think of too many people during the season saying  "boy, we have a huge need at WR and we really need to address it as a priority in the offseaon"

I just can't figure out why it's happening now.  

Now, I can go back and look at nearly every game and say, holy crap, how much better would this offense be if we would run the ball and stop getting out QB hit so much.

Not just LSU but specifically the Burrow chemistry that led to dominance.  I get the plug and play potential, but Sewell is a dream prospect.

One thing I want from the pick Chase group is more specific plans to address the OL.  The class depth is immense, but give me a few names and scenario if a stud DL is there in the 2nd.  

I won't lie that my vision may be blurred from the thirst for a good OL again.  Instead, some (not all) Chase backers come across like "we will have so many weapons we will figure it out".  That comes across like a communist trying to tell me why it hasn't worked before but will work this time.  

I know I sound like the old guy with issues, but Cincy needs to be realistic about the state of the OL or we will repeat futility.  That said, Burrow is a generational gift to the franchise and if Chase helps keep him long term AND you fix the OL I'm for it.  It's just on paper Sewell looks like the best prospect to come out in years at out biggest need. This is a very unique situation hence the civil war.  

(04-17-2021, 03:47 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Laps wants Sewell too:
https://www.cincyjungle.com/2021/4/10/22375994/bengals-draft-2021-dave-lapham-nfl-rumors-news-penei-sewell-vs-jamarr-chase

It's sorta like linemen think linemen are important

We should! We're the heart, soul, muscle, and bones of a team! And some of us are even pretty enough to be the face. 

Yeah... but what do they say about any of the other O-line talent prospects?

You'd think only the top Offensive Tackle is worth a damn in all of the drafts by some of these statements.

(04-17-2021, 05:01 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: I would say yes plus i take the weight of great players more than i do analysts and Sewell and Chase are neck and neck in prospect rating..

(04-17-2021, 05:10 PM)SladeX Wrote: I can tell you that I'm NOT more in the know than Munoz. Yes, I  consider his and Andersons opinion to have weight.

What is their take on Samuel Cosmi or Wyatt Davis? They don't have one because they don't actually review film of draft prospects. 

Just 2 guys airing their opinions like everyone else.
Albeit 2 legendary guys who know the inside and outs of the frontline of the gridiron battle like very few of us other opinion expressers.
There appears to be a definite leaning, real or imagined, from Bengaldom itself towards Chase. Are they now capable of smokescreens and mirrors?
They’ve seemed to be a ‘show your hand’ organisation but perhaps times are a changing.

(04-17-2021, 02:37 PM)Burma Wrote: What is mind boggling is how viturally everyone "in the know" is saying to take Sewell yet the Bengals are leaning towards Chase (possibly a smoke screen).  When everyone in the room is disagreeing with you, you have to stop and think, "is it I who am wrong?" Unless you know, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that you are the smartest person in that room there is a good chance you are wrong. I have zero confidence that the Bengals front office is ever the smartest person in any room, contrary to their own perceptions.

Not really a reply directly to you Burma....

People are hinging KNOWING what our FO is doing based mostly upon one statement from Tobin, where he stated "that it is a deep draft class for OL" in one of his press conferences.  For so many people this is the largest piece of evidence that we are going Chase.

Really!?!?  He said the same thing every expert, every person on this board, and every Mother's son has said about the draft because it's so glaringly obvious, but THIS single statement, which he has repeated has people on both sides (Chase or Sewell) pointing at us and saying "It's obviously Chase!".

Do you think the man has no guile?  And this is based upon a statement that says NOTHING because everyone knows it.  It just boggles me how much people read into what FO people say (when they all lie or make statement that say nothing this time of year), and then think they know exactly what their team is doing.

Perhaps.....just maybe......it is remotely possible.......perhaps......that Tobin is talking about the OLine depth to make people think we're going after Chase, to keep someone who wants Sewell from trading with Atlanta.  Perhaps.  Just a consideration.

(04-17-2021, 03:33 PM)Synric Wrote: Are former players really "in the know" I doubt they have spent their free time watching film on draft prospects.

Alot draft analysts like Zeirlein, DJ, and Brugler have Chase rsted higher than Sewell and I know at the very least those 3 guys have watched a ton of tape on each prospect.

This.

Obviously it’s interesting to hear former players opinions, but let’s be honest, they’re merely arguing off position in most cases, rather than actually preferring one particular prospect over the other.

(04-17-2021, 05:13 PM)Whatever Wrote: You have to look at how well informed those dissenting opinions are versus your own.  If you're Mike Brown, you're paying millions of dollars for a team of people to break down hours of tape on every prospect, plus attend workouts and do interviews to determine how well each prospect fits your scheme and needs and assemble your big board which is going to tell you who to take.  I love Munoz as much as anybody, but when talking about Sewell, he was like "I watched him play a couple of times.". It's not like he's out there breaking down film on all these guys.  The guy's a multimillionaire.  He's got better things to do with his time.  Not to mention that just because a guy was a great player doesn't mean they are also a great talent evaluator.  Case in point, how many QB's has John Elway gone through?

The other thing is Chase vs Sewell isn't a right or wrong.  Both guys could easily become great players.  Both guys could bust.  We could draft Sewell and he could play amazing and Burrow could still get hurt.  We could draft Chase and he could play like crap and Burrow could stay healthy.  We could draft Sewell and get the next Chad Johnson in the 2nd.  We could also get the next Jerome Simpson in the 2nd.  We could draft Chase and get the next Andrew Whitworth or Eric Fisher in the second.  

Also a good point. Willie’s opinion I put a little more stock into since he actually works with linemen for a living, but even he was a little non-committal on whether or not Sewell is OT1 in this draft (which is understandable for obvious reasons).

(04-17-2021, 07:57 PM)Stewy Wrote: Not really a reply directly to you Burma....

People are hinging KNOWING what our FO is doing based mostly upon one statement from Tobin, where he stated "that it is a deep draft class for OL" in one of his press conferences.  For so many people this is the largest piece of evidence that we are going Chase.

Really!?!?  He said the same thing every expert, every person on this board, and every Mother's son has said about the draft because it's so glaringly obvious, but THIS single statement, which he has repeated has people on both sides (Chase or Sewell) pointing at us and saying "It's obviously Chase!".

Do you think the man has no guile?  And this is based upon a statement that says NOTHING because everyone knows it.  It just boggles me how much people read into what FO people say (when they all lie or make statement that say nothing this time of year), and then think they know exactly what their team is doing.

Perhaps.....just maybe......it is remotely possible.......perhaps......that Tobin is talking about the OLine depth to make people think we're going after Chase, to keep someone who wants Sewell from trading with Atlanta.  Perhaps.  Just a consideration.

Well, he actually said 3 things:

They are going to take BPA.
They wont be forced to pick based on need.
There are o-line starters in the 2nd and 3rd round.

I think the 3 comments together is why people are thinking Chase. Of course, they may consider Sewell the BPA. 

IMO, I don't think anyone is trading up to 4 for Sewell. If someone goes to 4 for a non-QB, it will be for Pitts or Chase - with Miami being the most likely to do so.

Sewell is the smoke screen. Gotta keep people convinced we want him so nobody jumps up to #4 and takes Chase ahead of us. We will get the best non QB player available, and address the OL on days 2 and 3.

I guess what I am wondering about is why some in the Sewell camp on this forum have been condescending and borderline insulting to other forum members and outright insulting to players on the team. All this even while a LOT of the Chase camp want us to go OL in both 2 and 3.

Remember the draft is longer than one round and the OL class a a lot deeper than just Sewell.

Alijah Vera Tucker
Rashawn Slater
Christian Darrisaw
Alex Leatherwood
Jaylen Mayfield
Wyatt Davis
Aaron Banks
Landon Dickerson

ALL of these prospects are considered by most scouts to be plug and play. I could list more.

OMG, this argument went on for over 20 pages in another thread and now here we go again.

(04-17-2021, 09:56 PM)Joelist Wrote: I guess what I am wondering about is why some in the Sewell camp on this forum have been condescending and borderline insulting to other forum members and outright insulting to players on the team. All this even while a LOT of the Chase camp want us to go OL in both 2 and 3.

Remember the draft is longer than one round and the OL class a a lot deeper than just Sewell.

Alijah Vera Tucker
Rashawn Slater
Christian Darrisaw
Alex Leatherwood
Jaylen Mayfield
Wyatt Davis
Aaron Banks
Landon Dickerson

ALL of these prospects are considered by most scouts to be plug and play. I could list more.

I don;t see that way at all.. I see much depth in Wr also and we don;t know the run on tackles or wrs how that will go plus others like me are strong on the believe we have control at #5 we don;t have that control in 2nd round and I think we all can agree Oline is still the most need position so why risk the unknown in 2nd round if Sewell is there.... I don;t see people saying people are idiots that want Chase over Sewell I think they are trying to show the Chase lovers that reality is Oline is still the most need and we for sure can pick the best prospect in Sewell at 5.. if you asked me if i be happy ending up with few of those players on your list as our first Oline with only picking up Reiff in FA.. I would say no way. 

(04-17-2021, 02:52 PM)Burma Wrote: Exactly, You can raise up a player without degrading another. It's not a zero-sum game here. Chase it awesome, Pitts is awesome, and Sewell is awesome. Tie breaker goes to need.

Yep. I agree. 

I would say having an elite LT is tied for the 2nd most valuable position with elite pass rusher (the most valuable position being an elite QB).

I would be thrilled to grab the elite LT. If we had a chance at an elite WR or an elite pass rusher next year, I'd chose the elite pass rusher. WR fits in there closely after LT/pass rusher in my value chart. QB highest. Elite corner/safety/WR are in that high mid tier of value.

We already have 2 really good wideouts. It's easy to build off of that. It's not easy to build an offense behind a shaky offensive line. It's not easy to defend an elite offense without a pass rush either. These are the most critical components to success in my mind. You can win with an average QB if you have an elite offensive line and pass rush. You can't win jack with great weapons with no blocking help.

(04-17-2021, 09:36 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Well, he actually said 3 things:

They are going to take BPA.
They wont be forced to pick based on need.
There are o-line starters in the 2nd and 3rd round

Same difference really.  The first two are things every GM says every year and mean nothing.  The third was the point of my entire post, which was draft specific and not yearly generic.

BPA is relative to the Bengals big board, which none of us know what it looks like.  BPA on almost all media based expert's boards I've seen have Sewell over Chase.

Not Picking on need - even if they do pick based on need, the Bengals need both a WR and OLine.

So again Tobin's words mean nothing and if people are trying to wring meaning out of them, they are fooling themselves,  But feel free to be fooled I guess. 

(04-17-2021, 09:56 PM)Joelist Wrote: I guess what I am wondering about is why some in the Sewell camp on this forum have been condescending and borderline insulting to other forum members and outright insulting to players on the team. All this even while a LOT of the Chase camp want us to go OL in both 2 and 3.

Remember the draft is longer than one round and the OL class a a lot deeper than just Sewell.

Alijah Vera Tucker
Rashawn Slater
Christian Darrisaw
Alex Leatherwood
Jaylen Mayfield
Wyatt Davis
Aaron Banks
Landon Dickerson

ALL of these prospects are considered by most scouts to be plug and play. I could list more.

Why not both?  

(04-17-2021, 10:44 PM)Stewy Wrote: Same difference really.  The first two are things every GM says every year and mean nothing.  The third was the point of my entire post, which was draft specific and not yearly generic.

BPA is relative to the Bengals big board, which none of us know what it looks like.  BPA on almost all media based expert's boards I've seen have Sewell over Chase.

Not Picking on need - even if they do pick based on need, the Bengals need both a WR and OLine.

So again Tobin's words mean nothing and if people are trying to wring meaning out of them, they are fooling themselves,  But feel free to be fooled I guess. 

This furthers my point--or makes me want to expand on my point. 

I value Sewell higher than I value Chase strictly because of the position he plays. If he is a dominant LT, that is more valuable than a dominant WR. The WR will sell tickets, but the LT makes the run game and pass game better. It has nothing to do with need, and everything to do with value. 

It seems like a lot of people are down on Sewell's value on the boards here. I'm not saying Chase has low value either. I'd be happy with Sewell, Chase or Pitts. But I'd take Sewell before I took the other two. I'd certainly be happy with Chase or Pitts if Sewell is gone. Even if they choose the WR/TE over the LT, I'll still be happy with the caliber of player for sure. But the strategy is just a little less than ideal in my mind if they pass on an elite LT prospect. It's too valuable to pass up in my mind. If there were an elite pass rusher available, it would be a toss up on which to pick, but I'd probably go LT just to protect the QB.

(04-17-2021, 10:44 PM)Stewy Wrote: Same difference really.  The first two are things every GM says every year and mean nothing.  The third was the point of my entire post, which was draft specific and not yearly generic.

BPA is relative to the Bengals big board, which none of us know what it looks like.  BPA on almost all media based expert's boards I've seen have Sewell over Chase.

Not Picking on need - even if they do pick based on need, the Bengals need both a WR and OLine.

So again Tobin's words mean nothing and if people are trying to wring meaning out of them, they are fooling themselves,  But feel free to be fooled I guess. 

My point was that there's no reason for Tobin to be 'talking about the OLine depth to make people think we're going after Chase' because no one is trading up to 4 to get Sewell, and I don't see the Falcons taking him over Pitts. If they want Sewell, he'll be there at 5. If they want Pitts or Chase, at least one of them will be there.

(04-17-2021, 03:01 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: It is not Chase or bust... 

Such a silly statement.

After the National Championship game everyone was all "Gotta take Smith" prior to his injury Waddle was viewed as possibly the number one WR in the class.

There is talent at WR in all 7 rounds of this draft. 

There is talent at OL in all 7 rounds.

It is simply a case of what group can your offense not function with a bad one at? OL or WR... 

Curious, did Baltimore make the playoffs? They have 1 WR you could name and Higgins and Boyd are better then Hollywood Brown. The have a good OL, run the ball well and play good defense.

If you don't take Chase you can still run an efficient offense with a 2nd round WR (Marshall, Dyami Brown, Elijah Moore).

It's pretty much impossible to run an effective offense with a bad OL. Jonah is an injury concern, Hopkins is coming off an ACL, XSF has been injured three straight years, Spain is average/solid (Auden Tate level), and Reiff is the wildcard who has had success in the NFL at RG...

Chase would be an upgrade but Sewell would be just as big of an upgrade.

Dumb statements like Chase or bust, are why this franchise has sucked since Mike Brown took over.

(04-17-2021, 02:54 PM)Trademark Wrote: We definitely need a playmaker at WR. You feel comfortable with Higgins, Boyd and Tate? There's plenty of offensive line help in the draft. It's Chase or bust....

We definitely need someone dependable at tackle. You feel comfortable with a one year vet and a guy who played half a season in two years? There's plenty of wide receiver help in the draft and already on the roster.