(04-27-2021, 07:05 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: We also added a first round OT. He played with theirs at Alabama...

They added Conklin and Bill Callahan. We added Reiff and Pollack. The Browns aren’t the best example anyway though, imo. That two headed monster of a running game would make any QB’s life easier. Mixon is good, but he ain’t Nick Chubb. And Perine certainly isn’t Kareem Hunt.

That's the point, we can't run the ball to save our life.

Adding Reiff was nice, but he's not Conklin.  Pollack should have a strong impact.  The point is, if you have a great line, you can dictate the game.  Burrow makes every WR better - IF he has time to do what he needs.

It's an entertaining debate. I've already said my piece in previous threads. I'm okay with whoever we pick, but the smart choice is to take the grade A left tackle prospect when you're in position to get one. It's very rare one drops to the mid rounds (does happen every year for wideouts though).

I'll be happy with whoever we pick though. A WR high puts more pressure on us hitting on oline prospects later, but it could work as a strategy.

(04-27-2021, 07:08 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: That's the point, we can't run the ball to save our life.

Adding Reiff was nice, but he's not Conklin.  Pollack should have a strong impact.  The point is, if you have a great line, you can dictate the game.  Burrow makes every WR better - IF he has time to do what he needs.

Completely baseless statement. He played on an absolutely stacked LSU team in college, and in Cincinnati the only WR’s that saw any success at all were already good before Burrow got here. Boyd broke records at Pitt and put up back-to-back 1k yds with bad QB play in 2018 & 19. Tee was also very good at Clemson.

The rest of his WR’s?

Tate - 150 yds 0 TD
Erickson - 139 yds 0 TD
Thomas - 132 yds 1 TD
Green - 523 yds 2 TD
Ross - 17 yds 0 TD

Where is the evidence Burrow can “make every WR better?”

(04-27-2021, 07:28 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Completely baseless statement. He played on an absolutely stacked LSU team in college, and in Cincinnati the only WR’s that saw any success at all were already good before Burrow got here. Boyd broke records at Pitt and put up back-to-back 1k yds with bad QB play in 2018 & 19. Tee was also very good at Clemson.

The rest of his WR’s?

Tate - 150 yds 0 TD
Erickson - 139 yds 0 TD
Thomas - 132 yds 1 TD
Green - 523 yds 2 TD
Ross - 17 yds 0 TD

Where is the evidence Burrow can “make every WR better?”

Considering Zac wouldn't play Tate, I can't put that on Burrow.

Ross played how many games?  

You really don't think Burrow made Boyd any better? Didn't make Higgins any better?

If we draft Chase, why do we need Burrow?  He already is a stud and doesn't need a QB to make him any better.  Let's trade him for a haul and get Devonta and Chase and roll with Boyd, Higgins, Devonta and Chase and put Brandon Allen at QB.

IF you believe that Burrow can't make the WRs better, then we wasted a pick on him last year.  End of story.

(04-27-2021, 07:31 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: Considering Zac wouldn't play Tate, I can't put that on Burrow.

Ross played how many games?  

You really don't think Burrow made Boyd any better? Didn't make Higgins any better?

If we draft Chase, why do we need Burrow?  He already is a stud and doesn't need a QB to make him any better.  Let's trade him for a haul and get Devonta and Chase and roll with Boyd, Higgins, Devonta and Chase and put Brandon Allen at QB.

IF you believe that Burrow can't make the WRs better, then we wasted a pick on him last year.  End of story.

This is getting silly now. It most certainly does not make him a “wasted pick.” I want to see Burrow reach 2019 LSU level in Cincinnati. It’s that simple. And for that he’s going to need as many great weapons as possible.

(04-27-2021, 06:57 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Who are these "many", because most sites, mocks, and airplay that I hear all have Sewell as the top OL prospect.  Just give a few names, that's all.

Daniel Jeremiah, Lance Zierlein and Matt Miller are big fans of Slater and is their #1. Duke Manyweather has worked with both and considers them OT1A & OT1B.

As a side note, I’ve seen Darrisaw listed above Slater due to the belief that Slater will be forced inside (I don’t agree FWIW).

(04-27-2021, 07:40 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: This is getting silly now. It most certainly does not make him a “wasted pick.” I want to see Burrow reach 2019 LSU level in Cincinnati. It’s that simple. And for that he’s going to need as many great weapons as possible.

 you seem to be indicating to be a great QB you need great WRs.. so how many is great 1,2,3?  there are many  very good to great  QBs that did not have multiple number of great to very good WRs, normally 2 ...  or how about the idea that without a running game you won;t have a great QB or without a line you won't have a great QB.. so in the end is the QB ability more dictated by what they can do or what other's can do ?  

This seems like the discussion we were having with Dalton... and we were good with Dalton but never reached great.  So which is it for you with Burrow ?  do we have to surround him with a multitude of very good WRS and that will do it even with an adequate line  and not much running game or could we surround him with a very good line with a set of two good WRs and a  solid running game to be very good.

(04-27-2021, 05:55 PM)Synric Wrote: This has nothing to do with round 2 as their will be Offense Line and Wide Receivers in rounds 2 and 3. This is just straight prospect rankings. 

I have Ja'Marr Chase as a better overall prospect than Penei Sewell.

Fair enough, but I would rank them as Pitts, Sewell, Chase personally. 

And that ranking includes more then just the RAS score stuff:

Pitts to me is the most unique of the three, he comes in and causes so many issues for defenses and has no opt out and has shown it for years.

Sewell is at the greatest position of need for the team and has more years of success then Chase. Sewell started as a Freshman and was dominate. Got injured and bounced back like nothing happened, winning the Outland Trophy as a sophomore.

Chase came on super strong after a really pedestrian first year with Burrow. 313 yards with Burrow year 1 and was really a non factor, then gets hooked up with Joe Brady and all of the sudden, that offense explodes. I think Chase will be a good WR but he will need the type of coach that knows how to use him and get the most out of him and I don't think that is Taylor is on the Brady level.

So my rankings aren't just a "raw" prospect rank but a who comes in and gets the most out of them on this team.

I was in the minority last year saying we should trade out of one and take Herbert and the extra picks and was told I was crazy that Herbert wasn't even close to Burrow. Well, he was. Sometimes it isn't just about looking at tape and saying this guy is a good prospect, you have to take into account the team, the need, the coaching and what they are going to do with these guys. 

(04-27-2021, 07:40 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: This is getting silly now. It most certainly does not make him a “wasted pick.” I want to see Burrow reach 2019 LSU level in Cincinnati. It’s that simple. And for that he’s going to need as many great weapons as possible.

What's silly to me is that last year you were the one yelling the loudest for Burrow and how he'd make the line better and the WR's better and that didn't translate to wins.

Now you are the one screaming the loudest he needs the elite talent at WR to succeed..


So which is it? Is Burrow elite and if he is, he doesn't need the most elite weapons, as Brady, Rodgers, have done it without the elite WRs or is Burrow a good QB but not the guy that elevates the play of those around him.

Can't have it both ways Nico. 

(04-27-2021, 09:02 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote:  you seem to be indicating to be a great QB you need great WRs.. so how many is great 1,2,3?  there are many  very good to great  QBs that did not have multiple number of great to very good WRs, normally 2 ...  or how about the idea that without a running game you won;t have a great QB or without a line you won't have a great QB.. so in the end is the QB ability more dictated by what they can do or what other's can do ?  

This seems like the discussion we were having with Dalton... and we were good with Dalton but never reached great.  So which is it for you with Burrow ?  do we have to surround him with a multitude of very good WRS and that will do it even with an adequate line  and not much running game or could we surround him with a very good line with a set of two good WRs and a  solid running game to be very good.

I have no desire to rehash the same old Dalton debates. But to answer your question, I’d rather have an average to slightly above average OL and elite weapons, than an elite OL and average to slightly above average weapons. Did the Browns beat KC in the playoffs despite having the better OL and running game? I want to be able to hang with best offenses in the league (KC, Tampa, BUF, etc). Just give me an adequate OL, Joe Burrow, and as many weapons as possible.

(04-27-2021, 09:31 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Fair enough, but I would rank them as Pitts, Sewell, Chase personally. 

And that ranking includes more then just the RAS score stuff:

Pitts to me is the most unique of the three, he comes in and causes so many issues for defenses and has no opt out and has shown it for years.

Sewell is at the greatest position of need for the team and has more years of success then Chase. Sewell started as a Freshman and was dominate. Got injured and bounced back like nothing happened, winning the Outland Trophy as a sophomore.

Chase came on super strong after a really pedestrian first year with Burrow. 313 yards with Burrow year 1 and was really a non factor, then gets hooked up with Joe Brady and all of the sudden, that offense explodes. I think Chase will be a good WR but he will need the type of coach that knows how to use him and get the most out of him and I don't think that is Taylor is on the Brady level.

So my rankings aren't just a "raw" prospect rank but a who comes in and gets the most out of them on this team.

I was in the minority last year saying we should trade out of one and take Herbert and the extra picks and was told I was crazy that Herbert wasn't even close to Burrow. Well, he was. Sometimes it isn't just about looking at tape and saying this guy is a good prospect, you have to take into account the team, the need, the coaching and what they are going to do with these guys. 

You could at least be fair and also mention Chase won the Biletnikoff as a sophomore...

(04-27-2021, 09:35 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: What's silly to me is that last year you were the one yelling the loudest for Burrow and how he'd make the line better and the WR's better and that didn't translate to wins.

Now you are the one screaming the loudest he needs the elite talent at WR to succeed..


So which is it? Is Burrow elite and if he is, he doesn't need the most elite weapons, as Brady, Rodgers, have done it without the elite WRs or is Burrow a good QB but not the guy that elevates the play of those around him.

Can't have it both ways Nico. 

I never said we shouldn’t surround Burrow with great weapons though. Why some of you are so resistant to trying to recreate the 2019 LSU offense I have no idea. Going into last year I had no idea AJ’s play would be as bad as it was. Had he been anything close to his former self we would have won a lot of those close games. But way too often we were able to march the ball right down the field only to not do shit in the red zone. And that was largely because Burrow threw a grand total of 3 TD’s to anyone other than Tee or Boyd.

I speculate that I’m actually looking forward to 5-8th rounder that we dub the steal of the draft and the college free agent that comes in and captivates us all only to be let go in the final cuts and not signed to the practice squad.

You know, all things we normally ***** about post draft


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

(04-27-2021, 09:48 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I never said we shouldn’t surround Burrow with great weapons though. Why some of you are so resistant to trying to recreate the 2019 LSU offense I have no idea. Going into last year I had no idea AJ’s play would be as bad as it was. Had he been anything close to his former self we would have won a lot of those close games. But way too often we were able to march the ball right down the field only to not do shit in the red zone. And that was largely because Burrow threw a grand total of 3 TD’s to anyone other than Tee or Boyd.

You literally said drafting Burrow would make the line better and the WRs better. He won 2 games and the line was a wreck. Boyd was just as good with Dalton as he was with Burrow. Higgins broke out, but who elevated who in this situation?

You went on that he was going to be the next Andrew Luck (which he might but only in terms of his career being cut short due to injury) and that no other QB in the class was close to him... Herbert is absolutely on his level, might even be better, time will tell but we certainly could have traded back and gotten the extra pick last year and the extra pick this year to let the Dolphins move up and would have been just fine.

Recreating the LSU offense? This isn't fantasy land, this is the NFL. Not going to get Joe Brady or Justin Jefferson or Clyde Edwards-Helaire all of which were just as big a part of that offense as anyone, and honestly I think Joe Brady was the biggest part of it. 

If the issue is red zone offense, then you want someone other then a 6 foot WR... get a TE like Pitts, or even the Penn State kid in round two. 

The argument for Chase was he was going to take the top off the defense, but you literally just said the real issue was the not scoring in the red zone. So again... which is it?

What is really sounds like to me is all the pro Chase crowd think that he comes in and we have Moss and on boy, here we go LSU all over... and that isn't real life. A suspect line in college no problem (as you have said over and over the LSU line wasn't very good) but a suspect line in the NFL? That is a huge problem. 

Chase will be a good WR, but he isn't the correct pick for this team. I said this last year, you argued, and my argument ended being 100% correct. I'm not looking at 2021, I'm looking at the long term. Sewell and Chase will both be good pros and I think both will be in the upper tier of their position group. However, I look at two other factors. First, I actually believe Tee Higgins can be the real #1 WR on this team and that we need a Chris Henry type, a guy who can go deep, doesn't need to be the #1 just needs to get the defense to respect him deep and that is a 3rd or 4th round guy easy. Secondly, if Sewell and Chase both hit their ceiling, Chase will give you 6 or 7 great years, while Sewell can give you 10 plus. Not an opinion just a fact based on life of WRs at an elite level. Chad gave us 7 great years, Green 6.5, Carl Pickens four, WRs historically don't stay great for long. There is exceptions, but I'm talking the norm. Meanwhile, look at the top shelf OL guys, you get 10 years or in Whit's case 14 years. 

So why do you want to take 6 or 7 great years in one and pass on 10 plus great years? Why are we selling Higgins short when he showed more as a rookie then Chad Johnson's rookie year (not saying he will be Chad, but he shows so much promise and we are ready to replace him)? And before you say Higgins won't be replaced by Chase.. Chase will help... there is only so many targets in a game. CJ is going to be back, Boyd, and Higgins, the coaches are committed to Sample, we need a 3rd option for WR, not a 1st option. You don't draft your 3rd target in round one.

(04-27-2021, 10:16 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: You literally said drafting Burrow would make the line better and the WRs better. He won 2 games and the line was a wreck. Boyd was just as good with Dalton as he was with Burrow. Higgins broke out, but who elevated who in this situation?

You went on that he was going to be the next Andrew Luck (which he might but only in terms of his career being cut short due to injury) and that no other QB in the class was close to him... Herbert is absolutely on his level, might even be better, time will tell but we certainly could have traded back and gotten the extra pick last year and the extra pick this year to let the Dolphins move up and would have been just fine.

Recreating the LSU offense? This isn't fantasy land, this is the NFL. Not going to get Joe Brady or Justin Jefferson or Clyde Edwards-Helaire all of which were just as big a part of that offense as anyone, and honestly I think Joe Brady was the biggest part of it. 

If the issue is red zone offense, then you want someone other then a 6 foot WR... get a TE like Pitts, or even the Penn State kid in round two. 

The argument for Chase was he was going to take the top off the defense, but you literally just said the real issue was the not scoring in the red zone. So again... which is it?
Carl Pickens
What is really sounds like to me is all the pro Chase crowd think that he comes in and we have Moss and on boy, here we go LSU all over... and that isn't real life. A suspect line in college no problem (as you have said over and over the LSU line wasn't very good) but a suspect line in the NFL? That is a huge problem. 

Chase will be a good WR, but he isn't the correct pick for this team. I said this last year, you argued, and my argument ended being 100% correct. I'm not looking at 2021, I'm looking at the long term. Sewell and Chase will both be good pros and I think both will be in the upper tier of their position group. However, I look at two other factors. First, I actually believe Tee Higgins can be the real #1 WR on this team and that we need a Chris Henry type, a guy who can go deep, doesn't need to be the #1 just needs to get the defense to respect him deep and that is a 3rd or 4th round guy easy. Secondly, if Sewell and Chase both hit their ceiling, Chase will give you 6 or 7 great years, while Sewell can give you 10 plus. Not an opinion just a fact based on life of WRs at an elite level. Chad gave us 7 great years, Green 6.5, Carl Pickens four, WRs historically don't stay great for long. There is exceptions, but I'm talking the norm. Meanwhile, look at the top shelf OL guys, you get 10 years or in Whit's case 14 years. 

So why do you want to take 6 or 7 great years in one and pass on 10 plus great years? Why are we selling Higgins short when he showed more as a rookie then Chad Johnson's rookie year (not saying he will be Chad, but he shows so much promise and we are ready to replace him)? And before you say Higgins won't be replaced by Chase.. Chase will help... there is only so many targets in a game. CJ is going to be back, Boyd, and Higgins, the coaches are committed to Sample, we need a 3rd option for WR, not a 1st option. You don't draft your 3rd target in round one.

You do realize he was a rookie last year, right.... Peyton's rookie year wasn't the most stellar either...Its what you do year after year to improve yourself... 

(04-27-2021, 10:31 PM)The Clapp Wrote: You do realize he was a rookie last year, right.... Peyton's rookie year wasn't the most stellar either...Its what you do year after year to improve yourself... 

People compared him to Andrew Luck who went 11-5 his rookie year.

Again, it is simple.

If Burrow is elite and the QB he was hyped to be, he doesn't need Chase. Look at the WRs that cycle through Pitt, look at Green Bay with one guy, look at Brady where WRs go to be discovered...

If we have to have Chase for Burrow to be elite, then we botched the pick last season and should have gotten the extra picks and taken Herbert.

Can't be both.

(04-27-2021, 10:34 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: People compared him to Andrew Luck who went 11-5 his rookie year.

Again, it is simple.

If Burrow is elite and the QB he was hyped to be, he doesn't need Chase. Look at the WRs that cycle through Pitt, look at Green Bay with one guy, look at Brady where WRs go to be discovered...

If we have to have Chase for Burrow to be elite, then we botched the pick last season and should have gotten the extra picks and taken Herbert.

Can't be both.

You're right i don't think he needs Chase... I believe..

(04-27-2021, 10:16 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: You literally said drafting Burrow would make the line better and the WRs better. He won 2 games and the line was a wreck. Boyd was just as good with Dalton as he was with Burrow. Higgins broke out, but who elevated who in this situation?

You went on that he was going to be the next Andrew Luck (which he might but only in terms of his career being cut short due to injury) and that no other QB in the class was close to him... Herbert is absolutely on his level, might even be better, time will tell but we certainly could have traded back and gotten the extra pick last year and the extra pick this year to let the Dolphins move up and would have been just fine.

Recreating the LSU offense? This isn't fantasy land, this is the NFL. Not going to get Joe Brady or Justin Jefferson or Clyde Edwards-Helaire all of which were just as big a part of that offense as anyone, and honestly I think Joe Brady was the biggest part of it. 

If the issue is red zone offense, then you want someone other then a 6 foot WR... get a TE like Pitts, or even the Penn State kid in round two. 

The argument for Chase was he was going to take the top off the defense, but you literally just said the real issue was the not scoring in the red zone. So again... which is it?
Carl Pickens
What is really sounds like to me is all the pro Chase crowd think that he comes in and we have Moss and on boy, here we go LSU all over... and that isn't real life. A suspect line in college no problem (as you have said over and over the LSU line wasn't very good) but a suspect line in the NFL? That is a huge problem. 

Chase will be a good WR, but he isn't the correct pick for this team. I said this last year, you argued, and my argument ended being 100% correct. I'm not looking at 2021, I'm looking at the long term. Sewell and Chase will both be good pros and I think both will be in the upper tier of their position group. However, I look at two other factors. First, I actually believe Tee Higgins can be the real #1 WR on this team and that we need a Chris Henry type, a guy who can go deep, doesn't need to be the #1 just needs to get the defense to respect him deep and that is a 3rd or 4th round guy easy. Secondly, if Sewell and Chase both hit their ceiling, Chase will give you 6 or 7 great years, while Sewell can give you 10 plus. Not an opinion just a fact based on life of WRs at an elite level. Chad gave us 7 great years, Green 6.5, Carl Pickens four, WRs historically don't stay great for long. There is exceptions, but I'm talking the norm. Meanwhile, look at the top shelf OL guys, you get 10 years or in Whit's case 14 years. 

So why do you want to take 6 or 7 great years in one and pass on 10 plus great years? Why are we selling Higgins short when he showed more as a rookie then Chad Johnson's rookie year (not saying he will be Chad, but he shows so much promise and we are ready to replace him)? And before you say Higgins won't be replaced by Chase.. Chase will help... there is only so many targets in a game. CJ is going to be back, Boyd, and Higgins, the coaches are committed to Sample, we need a 3rd option for WR, not a 1st option. You don't draft your 3rd target in round one.

Christ, that is a pretty long winded post, and I’m not going to respond to each point individually (it’s all been covered ad nauseam), but as far you wanting to trade back for Herbert last year? That’s not how I remember it. I remember you not wanting to take a QB at all until we built up the OL. Which I disagreed with then, and still do. Herbert balled out and won OROY despite having a shit OL. Theirs was equally as bad as ours. Just look at his numbers under pressure. He deserves a lot of the credit himself, but his WR’s and TE’s also did a good job of making plays for him.

And recreating the LSU offense doesn’t have to be “fantasy land.” We already have the QB, we have the stud WR in the slot (Boyd = Jefferson), and we have a good WR with good size (Tee = Marshall). We have a very good RB (Mixon = CEH). We even picked up Thad Moss. We just need an adequate OL (not a single 1st or 2nd rounder on that LSU line). Replacing Hart and Jordan is a great start on that. Now we just need the down the field big play guy in Chase. If we get even average OL play, and add Chase, then it’s put up or shut up time for ZT. He’s supposedly this young “offensive minded” coach, well if we give him all that this team should score a lot of points, and win a lot of games.

(04-27-2021, 10:34 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: People compared him to Andrew Luck who went 11-5 his rookie year.

Again, it is simple.

If Burrow is elite and the QB he was hyped to be, he doesn't need Chase. Look at the WRs that cycle through Pitt, look at Green Bay with one guy, look at Brady where WRs go to be discovered...

If we have to have Chase for Burrow to be elite, then we botched the pick last season and should have gotten the extra picks and taken Herbert.

Can't be both.

He doesn’t “need” Chase. He can be a very good QB without a true stud #1 WR. I just don’t know why wouldn’t want to give him one though when have the chance. Other than this silly notion that Sewell is the only good offensive lineman in this draft.

You keep bringing up positions I took, or things I said however long ago. Fact is, things change. Opinions change. Once I really started diving into this draft class, and heard the arguments for going Chase and OL in 2 & 3 I switched sides. I don’t really see that as a bad thing. I never like digging in so much that I’m not open to having my mind changed.

I’m also just trying to stay positive about all this. It’s been clear for a few weeks they’re leaning towards Chase, and not only do I not want to spend the entire offseason being miserable over a single draft pick, I also think that selection would make sense.

(04-27-2021, 10:34 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: People compared him to Andrew Luck who went 11-5 his rookie year.

Again, it is simple.

If Burrow is elite and the QB he was hyped to be, he doesn't need Chase. Look at the WRs that cycle through Pitt, look at Green Bay with one guy, look at Brady where WRs go to be discovered...

If we have to have Chase for Burrow to be elite, then we botched the pick last season and should have gotten the extra picks and taken Herbert.

Can't be both.

Umm Pittsburgh has always had stellar receivers since Ben has been there, so not sure where that comes from. It’s no coincidence that Brady had his best year in a long time this year because he had arguably the best or 2nd best weapons around him. Boyd and Higgins are good, but they are nothing like Davante Adams, or any of the top notch WR Pitt has had or Brady when he’s had his best seasons. You’re really reaching but you’re starting to make no sense. If you think Sewell is going to just completely change our O-line, that’s one argument, but don’t downplay the impact Chase can have on this offense.