Maybe Zac is finally beginning to learn that hiring your old pals from losing programs probably ain't such a good idea.. I had to learn the same lesson about hiring friends. It rarely works in your favor..
I HATED the Turner hire from the moment it was announced. I would have rather them hired a ketchup spokesman..or an anti ketchup crusader for that matter. Hell, Matt Geatz for that matter..

(05-08-2021, 11:15 AM)impactplaya Wrote: Im hoping Pollack can do for this oline what Bill Callahan did
For the Browns in 2020. He took a middle tier oline and 
Transformed into  the best oline in the NFL.
If the Bengals oline can be even average to good this year
Its a playoff team. 
Jim Turner ******** every olinemens growth laat year.

Prior to the 2020 season, the Browns signed Jake Conklin as a FA from Tenn. He had been all-pro once in TN. They also drafted Jedrick Willis, OT, with their first round pick.

They prioritized improving the OL. They did. They made the POs. What a coincidence! Callahan deserves some credit, no doubt. Conklin was all-pro again. 

Now, I was firmly on team Sewell, but that is done, now. Adding Reiff & Carman will help. Adding Pollack will help. How much? I guess we will have a year to see. 

One way to look at it is that the Burrow, Mixon, Chase, Higgins, and Boyd have the skill positions set for a couple years (or hopefully, more). We could use more depth, but in terms of high draft picks or big ticket FAs, we are probably looking at other positions in the near future.

Turner was a disaster. Don't trust what you saw of guys with Turner at the helm. Give Pollack a year with the guys we had (Jonah, Hopkins, XSF, Spain, Price, Johnson, Jordan, Adeniji) + a solid vet OT in Reiff + his choice on some new guys (Carman, Smith, Hill) & we can then have a real idea of what our needs are and what those guys can do.

Yes, I realize that is 12 guys and we likely only keep 10. Hopefully 2 go to the PS and our PS level guys migrate off the roster altogether (Prince, Sutherland).

If Pollack can make these guys shine, fantastic. Maybe Jonah turns into a perennial pro-bowler at LT and Carman is a homerun at RG and Price plays like a first rounder and Spain & XSF play the best they've ever played and Smith looks like the steal of the draft and Jordan becomes a monster.

But that is coming up roses an awful lot. I tend to doubt it. Unless Pollack cheats like Bob Baffert. If our OL makes the jump to average, that is a HUGE improvement. And speaks well of Pollack. 

But I am still of a mind to emphasize OL next year as well. If our O-line was good, or very good, or, great, what do you think Burrow, Mixon, Chase, Higgins, and Boyd could do? What could Pollack do with A level talent? I think we'd be contenders. Pronto.

(05-08-2021, 09:51 AM)impactplaya Wrote: Pollack has a proven track record as a ex player and OL coach.
As a matter of fact no other position.coach on.the team
Has a resume with such achievements
So.its not like the Bengals hired some oline coach from
Virginia State or Kansas A and M. Or has been a.journeymen
Coach that has a new team.every 3 years
He actually has a track record of getting results.

I don't think any other coach on the team, save for Simmons, has a resume of success anywhere at all. That certainly includes Taylor as well.

 

(05-08-2021, 06:19 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Fair, but I don't recall anyone thinking Zimmer was going to walk on water, shit rainbows, and turn a bunch of scrubs into good players when he came here in 2008. 

I honestly don't remember what the talk was like in 2008.

That said, we know what Pollack did in Cincy before that mess in NY. We knew what he did in Dallas before we hired him initially.

So...we have reason to believe what happened in NY was a fluke. Just as what happened to Zim in ATL was a fluke. I know I knew better than to judge Zim for that.

One bad stop shouldn't cancel out a good/great career. Especially when the situation is a total mess.

(05-09-2021, 02:41 AM)Bengal Dude Wrote: Honestly, I enjoy the knock towards Turner. He might go down as one of the worst coaching hires in team history. It says a lot when a position coach can be considered so terrible for your team. 

Right there with Terryl Austin, Ken Zampese and Lou Anarumo.

The common thread is that all of these guys (and Turner), had bad resumes.

We should've known better.

(05-10-2021, 01:42 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I honestly don't remember what the talk was like in 2008.

That said, we know what Pollack did in Cincy before that mess in NY. We knew what he did in Dallas before we hired him initially.

So...we have reason to believe what happened in NY was a fluke. Just as what happened to Zim in ATL was a fluke. I know I knew better than to judge Zim for that.

One bad stop shouldn't cancel out a good/great career. Especially when the situation is a total mess.

Do we? He inherited an already great OL in Dallas, though. We never saw him ever develop anyone or do work. You or I could have been a good OL coach in Dallas in 2015.

Heading into 2015....
Tyron Smith (2011 1st rounder): Pro Bowl 2013/2014, 2nd Team All-Pro 2013, 1st Team All-Pro 2014
Travis Frederick (2013 1st rounder): Pro Bowl 2014, 2nd Team All-Pro 2014
Zack Martin (2014 1st rounder): Pro Bowl 2014, 1st Team All-Pro 2014

So when Frank Pollack became the OL Coach for the Cowboys in 2015, he inherited two 1st Team All-Pros and a 2nd Team All-Pro on his OL. All young. Even the other two guys might not be Pro Bowlers, but Doug Free (79.3 PFF in 2014) and Ronald Leary (79.9 PFF in 2014) were anything but scrubs. Both would have been the highest rated guys on the Bengals OL. Lol

You give me those 5 guys at that time and I will be a great OL coach, too. Heck, DeMarco Murray was the OPoY, Tony Romo and Jason Witten were Pro Bowlers, and Dez Bryant was an All-Pro... all in 2014 before Pollack took over.

Pollack is Paul Guenther to Bill Callahan's Mike Zimmer in this scenario.

(05-10-2021, 02:32 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Do we? He inherited an already great OL in Dallas, though. We never saw him ever develop anyone or do work. You or I could have been a good OL coach in Dallas in 2015.

Heading into 2015....
Tyron Smith (2011 1st rounder): Pro Bowl 2013/2014, 2nd Team All-Pro 2013, 1st Team All-Pro 2014
Travis Frederick (2013 1st rounder): Pro Bowl 2014, 2nd Team All-Pro 2014
Zack Martin (2014 1st rounder): Pro Bowl 2014, 1st Team All-Pro 2014

So when Frank Pollack became the OL Coach for the Cowboys in 2015, he inherited two 1st Team All-Pros and a 2nd Team All-Pro on his OL. All young. Even the other two guys might not be Pro Bowlers, but Doug Free (79.3 PFF in 2014) and Ronald Leary (79.9 PFF in 2014) were anything but scrubs. Both would have been the highest rated guys on the Bengals OL. Lol

You give me those 5 guys at that time and I will be a great OL coach, too. Heck, DeMarco Murray was the OPoY, Tony Romo and were Pro Bowlers, and Dez Bryan was an All-Pro... all in 2014 before Pollack took over.

Pollack is Paul Guenther to Bill Callahan's Mike Zimmer in this scenario.

I like this post here

A lot of people just have blind faith and are telling themselves anything to feel ultra super positive about 2021.

Thinking Pollack was the final missing piece and can turn the whole o-line around, and that it’s Turner’s fault that Michael Jordan and Billy Price stink is just barely logical atm

Actually Pollack did a good job in Dallas getting the line coached up, and when he left the performance nosedived. On the Jets there were a lot of other factors including awful QB play and bad decisions in Free Agency and the draft and he still managed to coach up Mekhi Becton properly. And we have stats in other threads here showing how the Bengals line performance nosedived under Turner from Pollack. Price was one example of this - Pollack had him shaping up into a good player the one season he had him but injuries intruded and then Turner ruined him. And Pollack did not draft Jordan and I suspect Jordan is a cut.

Far from a problem being people supposedly (but not provably) having blind faith a FAR bigger problem is people looking with something akin to desperation for anything and everything they can find to talk down the Bengals offseason. Optimism is always better than cynicism and pessimism and the optimism here is not without reason.

(05-10-2021, 02:32 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Do we? He inherited an already great OL in Dallas, though. We never saw him ever develop anyone or do work. You or I could have been a good OL coach in Dallas in 2015.

Heading into 2015....
Tyron Smith (2011 1st rounder): Pro Bowl 2013/2014, 2nd Team All-Pro 2013, 1st Team All-Pro 2014
Travis Frederick (2013 1st rounder): Pro Bowl 2014, 2nd Team All-Pro 2014
Zack Martin (2014 1st rounder): Pro Bowl 2014, 1st Team All-Pro 2014

So when Frank Pollack became the OL Coach for the Cowboys in 2015, he inherited two 1st Team All-Pros and a 2nd Team All-Pro on his OL. All young. Even the other two guys might not be Pro Bowlers, but Doug Free (79.3 PFF in 2014) and Ronald Leary (79.9 PFF in 2014) were anything but scrubs. Both would have been the highest rated guys on the Bengals OL. Lol

You give me those 5 guys at that time and I will be a great OL coach, too. Heck, DeMarco Murray was the OPoY, Tony Romo and Jason Witten were Pro Bowlers, and Dez Bryant was an All-Pro... all in 2014 before Pollack took over.

Pollack is Paul Guenther to Bill Callahan's Mike Zimmer in this scenario.

Alot of people believe Frank Pollack was an instrumental in coaching the Cowboys Offensive Line because Bill Callahan was the Offensive Coordinator.

(05-08-2021, 10:15 AM)TJ528 Wrote: dude I completely agree with you.  Pollack is the best hire the front office made in 3 years. 

He can make a huge difference IF Taylor's let's him. This is Zacs offense and if he only wants to run it 15-20 times per game and throw it 50 times thats what Zacs gonna do. Me, I'd rather see us run the ball 35-40 times per game at close to the 4.9 ypc we averged when Pollack left.

When are people gonna realize this isn't 2001 anymore.. Thats not what this team is set up for and no one is really... 

(05-08-2021, 09:37 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Lets be honest Pollack has some proving to do.. he can't continue to ride the 3 year run he had at Dallas, he was let go after a downturn in 2017, came here for a year did ok.. went to the Jets and even after they invested 4 FA and a 1st rounder Jets Oline did not perform well.

I don;t think he is a bad coach but the performance the last few years does carry some concern of can he be one of the better Oline coaches in the league and move players up the ladder.. I do hope so

Is there anything you are high on withing the organization?

(05-10-2021, 07:30 AM)Synric Wrote: Alot of people believe Frank Pollack was an instrumental in coaching the Cowboys Offensive Line because Bill Callahan was the Offensive Coordinator.

Don't buy that at all. There's too much evidence the the contrary...

D'Brickshaw Ferguson, Nick Mangold, Brandon Moore all became Pro Bowlers/All-Pros for the first time under Callahan with the Jets. 
Callahan goes to Dallas and Tyron Smith, Zack Martin, and Travis Frederick all become Pro Bowlers/All-Pros for the first time. 
Callhan goes to DC and Brandon Scherff becomes a Pro Bowler for the first time. 
THEN Callahan goes to Cleveland and Wyatt Teller becomes a 2nd Team All-Pro for the first time.

Callahan goes to 4 teams and gets 8 guys to become Pro Bowl/All-Pro OL for the first times in their careers. 
Pollack goes to 4 teams and gets 0 guys to become Pro Bowl/All-Pro OL for the first times in their careers.


- - - - - - - -
(I still hope Pollack absolutely kicks ass and the Bengals OL does great in 2021, I just don't know if I have seen anything that should make me expect it.)

(05-10-2021, 08:59 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Don't buy that at all. There's too much evidence the the contrary...

D'Brickshaw Ferguson, Nick Mangold, Brandon Moore all became Pro Bowlers/All-Pros for the first time under Callahan with the Jets. 
Callahan goes to Dallas and Tyron Smith, Zack Martin, and Travis Frederick all become Pro Bowlers/All-Pros for the first time. 
Callhan goes to DC and Brandon Scherff becomes a Pro Bowler for the first time. 
THEN Callahan goes to Cleveland and Wyatt Teller becomes a 2nd Team All-Pro for the first time.

Callahan goes to 4 teams and gets 8 guys to become Pro Bowl/All-Pro OL for the first times in their careers. 
Pollack goes to 4 teams and gets 0 guys to become Pro Bowl/All-Pro OL for the first times in their careers.


- - - - - - - -
(I still hope Pollack absolutely kicks ass and the Bengals OL does great in 2021, I just don't know if I have seen anything that should make me expect it.)

Frank Pollack was the best candidate available. 
Its not like their was a line of out of work
Oline coaches waiting to be hired that had resumes
Comparable to Pollacks. 
I think there was a couple college level oline
Coaches in the interview process.
Who.do you think they should have replaced Turner
With other than Pollack?

(05-10-2021, 07:48 AM)Tony Wrote: Is there anything you are high on withing the organization?

Yea I'm actually really high on that Katie and Troy are in charge.  

I like they are allowing Elizabeth to be included more in the day to day operations at 28 years old. 

I'm highly Joe Burrow and the talent we have on offense.  

I think we have some good players on defense just not enough of them.  

However, I think the major problem in this organization comes down Zac and his staff. 

It's time to step up or shut up.  I'm hoping that Pollack came back on a deal that allows him to stick around for the next coach, because I truly like Pollack. I think he's going to be a big factor in this offense. He's going to improve the offensive line, but even a miracle worker doesn't do stuff over night.  

However, personally, I think it's time for Zac to hand over those offensive play calling duties and take ownership of the hole team.  

How does Zac Taylor not get more heat for letting Pollack walk and more importantly hiring Turner? What an awful awful hire. Everyone even knew it at the time he was brought on.

(05-10-2021, 09:37 AM)impactplaya Wrote: Frank Pollack was the best candidate available. 
Its not like their was a line of out of work
Oline coaches waiting to be hired that had resumes
Comparable to Pollacks. 
I think there was a couple college level oline
Coaches in the interview process.
Who.do you think they should have replaced Turner
With other than Pollack?

They've already committed to making themselves the LSU Major League Affiliate, so why not go all in? Hire James Cregg. Then they don't even need to change OL Coaches when they inevitably hire Joe Brady to be HC next season. Lol

(05-08-2021, 09:42 AM)TJ528 Wrote: Listen I like Pollack but what else is he supposed to say "this line needs serious help" lol I mean I fo like it that he called out Turner for his incompetence, which inturn kind of rubs off on Zac for hiring Turner. 

I'm not sure I have as much faith in Billy Price as him but if he can turn this line this year into an average OL I'll start believing the man walks on water lol

The sad part is Turner was brought into the organization  knowing exactly who he was, his past and all the verified chaos he is.

Who is responsible for that, Zac? Tobin? Mike?  Whoever scooped him up should have been fired along with Turner.

(05-10-2021, 10:05 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: They've already committed to making themselves the LSU Major League Affiliate, so why not go all in? Hire James Cregg. Then they don't even need to change OL Coaches when they inevitably hire Joe Brady to be HC next season. Lol

Makes you wonder if the whole LSU thing with Burrow Moss
And Chase is by design or desperation by Zac Taylor
If anything the Burrow Chase being reunited is producing
Positive opinions from the football writers media figures
Etc etc and its creating excitement in the fanbase

(05-09-2021, 01:53 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: Prior to the 2020 season, the Browns signed Jake Conklin as a FA from Tenn. He had been all-pro once in TN. They also drafted Jedrick Willis, OT, with their first round pick.

They prioritized improving the OL. They did. They made the POs. What a coincidence! Callahan deserves some credit, no doubt. Conklin was all-pro again. 

Now, I was firmly on team Sewell, but that is done, now. Adding Reiff & Carman will help. Adding Pollack will help. How much? I guess we will have a year to see. 

One way to look at it is that the Burrow, Mixon, Chase, Higgins, and Boyd have the skill positions set for a couple years (or hopefully, more). We could use more depth, but in terms of high draft picks or big ticket FAs, we are probably looking at other positions in the near future.

Turner was a disaster. Don't trust what you saw of guys with Turner at the helm. Give Pollack a year with the guys we had (Jonah, Hopkins, XSF, Spain, Price, Johnson, Jordan, Adeniji) + a solid vet OT in Reiff + his choice on some new guys (Carman, Smith, Hill) & we can then have a real idea of what our needs are and what those guys can do.

Yes, I realize that is 12 guys and we likely only keep 10. Hopefully 2 go to the PS and our PS level guys migrate off the roster altogether (Prince, Sutherland).

If Pollack can make these guys shine, fantastic. Maybe Jonah turns into a perennial pro-bowler at LT and Carman is a homerun at RG and Price plays like a first rounder and Spain & XSF play the best they've ever played and Smith looks like the steal of the draft and Jordan becomes a monster.

But that is coming up roses an awful lot. I tend to doubt it. Unless Pollack cheats like Bob Baffert. If our OL makes the jump to average, that is a HUGE improvement. And speaks well of Pollack. 

But I am still of a mind to emphasize OL next year as well. If our O-line was good, or very good, or, great, what do you think Burrow, Mixon, Chase, Higgins, and Boyd could do? What could Pollack do with A level talent? I think we'd be contenders. Pronto.

The Bengals' approach to the OL really isn't THAT far off from what the Browns have done, it's just not quite there yet.
Each team drafted a new LT in the 1st round.
Each team picked up a former 1st rounder in FA.
Each team drafted a 2nd rounder for one of their OG spots.
Each team picked up a good pass blocker but just ok run blocker outside of the team to play their other OG spot (Teller was just ok at run blocking until last year).
Both teams got a new OL coach after their previous one underwhelmed.

The only difference really now is the Browns signed a proven C in FA whereas the Bengals turned a bad OG in Hopkins into a decent C.

If the Bengals can get a similar turnaround with XSF and/or Spain that CLE got with Teller, and if Carman can turn into something similar to Bitonio, they could end up having a decent OL.

(05-10-2021, 10:24 AM)Bengalitis Wrote: The sad part is Turner was brought into the organization  knowing exactly who he was, his past and all the verified chaos he is.

Actually a lot of people around here liked Turner.  They thought we needed a "real man" like him to make our O-linemen tougher.