(05-10-2021, 02:12 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I continue to be shocked at how little this organization values the LB position.

Probably because they only have 1 or 2 on the field the majority of the time.

It's the least important position on the field

(05-10-2021, 03:48 PM)BengalFanInCanada Wrote: I sure hope we get there before Burrows is well into his 70’s.

Lol I meant 4th year. Had 5th year listed originally, must have missed the edit correctly.

(05-10-2021, 04:01 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: Probably because they only have 1 or 2 on the field the majority of the time.

It's the least important position on the field

Huh?  When do the Bengals ever have only 1 LB on the field? 

It's not at all an unimportant position.  And if you don't believe me then take a look at the amount of LB's taken in the 1st round these last 5 years:

2021 - 5
2020 - 4
2019 - 4
2018 - 4
2017 - 5

Total = 22

Now look at these other positions on defense over those same 5 years...

DE
2021 - 4
2020 - 2
2019 - 5
2018 - 2
2017 - 6

Total = 19

DT
2021 - 1
2020 - 2
2019 - 5
2018 - 3
2017 - 1

Total - 14

DB (CB+S)

2021 - 5
2020 - 6
2019 - 3
2018 - 6
2017 - 8

Total - 28

Why are teams investing 1st round picks into such an unimportant positon?

(05-10-2021, 03:54 PM)bengals67 Wrote: I think the only other contract for Dede will be the next one he signs after a one year contract for 2021.

I would love to see him as our number 4 but I would rather sign a quality linebacker and a quality o lineman who gets cut for salary cap reasons.
I wish we had signed the Green Bay center who went to San Diego - as an example.

Obviously we want those but we shouldn't keep trying to improve the team in any way that we can.

(05-10-2021, 04:21 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Huh?  When do the Bengals ever have only 1 LB on the field? 

It's not at all an unimportant position.  And if you don't believe me then take a look at the amount of LB's taken in the 1st round these last 5 years:

2021 - 5
2020 - 4
2019 - 4
2018 - 4
2017 - 5

Total = 22

Now look at these other positions on defense over those same 5 years...

DE
2021 - 4
2020 - 2
2019 - 5
2018 - 2
2017 - 6

Total = 19

DT
2021 - 1
2020 - 2
2019 - 5
2018 - 3
2017 - 1

Total - 14

DB (CB+S)

2021 - 5
2020 - 6
2019 - 3
2018 - 6
2017 - 8

Total - 28

Why are teams investing 1st round picks into such an unimportant positon?

Are all those 1st round LBs off-ball LBs, or are some of them 3-4 OLBs?

From what I see for off-ball LBs...
2021 - 3 (Parsons, Collins, Davis)
2020 - 3 (Simmons, Brooks, Queen)
2019 - 2 (White, Bush)
2018 - 4 (Smith, Edmunds, LVE, Evans)
2017 - 3 (Reddick, Davis, Foster)

There are a couple other guys who might have been given the label of LB, but they really are just EDGE rushers.
They are not really dropping into coverage hardly at all.

EDIT - And here are the guys from the above list who made the Top 50 LBs in the league last year according to PFF...
Roquan Smith - 17th
Isaiah Simmons - 29th
Rashaan Evans - 38th

So out of all the LBs taken in the 1st round 2017-2020, only 3 ended up in PFF's Top 50 in performance last season. To me, that shows that LB hasn't been worth the investment in the 1st round. Most of the guys in the Top 50 (and especially Top 30) are 2nd, 3rd, and 4th round draft picks.

(05-10-2021, 12:17 PM)ochocincos Wrote: https://www.si.com/nfl/bengals/news/bengals-one-of-multiple-teams-interested-in-former-jaguars-receiver-dede-westbrook

For those who have visited the Free Agents section know I had mentioned Westbrook as a possible guy to go get, so I'm excited if this happens.
I think Westbrook can be a good WR3/4. He put up 717 yards and 5 TDs on 66 receptions on 101 targets in 2018, and then 660 yards and 3 TDs on the same number of receptions and targets in 2019.
Westbrook was a former Biletnikoff winner at Oklahoma.

I don't believe too much competition is ever really a bad thing. Bring him in if he wins a spot then that is a good thing.

(05-10-2021, 02:12 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I continue to be shocked at how little this organization values the LB position.

Not sure that is true of this staff right now. They spent 4 draft picks on the position the last two seasons as well as bringing in Josh Bynes last season. Not sure the devalue it as much as they are just young at the position right now. I actually look forward to seeing more of what Wilson, Gaither-Davis, and Bailey bring to the position.

(05-10-2021, 02:12 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I continue to be shocked at how little this organization values the LB position.

What vet LB would you bring in? Please don't say KJ Wright, because I guarantee by mid season you will be complaining about how much we wasted on him. He's a shell of what he used to be. These LBs have been in our system long enough, time to let them fly.

A WR4/5 with some versatility and upside. Sounds like a good signing, and an immediate upgrade to the Auden Tate and Alex Ericson type WR’s.

(05-10-2021, 03:59 PM)yang Wrote: I know right, we only drafted (checks notes)  THREE last year! 

I also wouldn't be surprised to see Ossai standing up on a few plays. 

(05-10-2021, 05:50 PM)sandwedge Wrote: What vet LB would you bring in? Please don't say KJ Wright, because I guarantee by mid season you will be complaining about how much we wasted on him. He's a shell of what he used to be. These LBs have been in our system long enough, time to let them fly.

It's probably too late to add anyone of real note at this point. 

The last LB we took in the first two rounds was Ray Mauluga (round 2) 12 years ago in 2009.  Since that time we've tried to fill out the position group with middle round picks and bargain bin FA's.

Look, if you want to agree with that approach then that's your choice.  But I don't think anyone can refute that the team clearly doesn't value LB's like they do with other positions.  Nor do they value the position as much as other teams do.

People keep pointing to last years draft but I think that only strengthens my argument.  They immediately handed meaningful PT to a 3rd and 4th round rookie, signed a scrub in FA and pretended like they were perfectly fine there.

(05-10-2021, 07:33 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: It's probably too late to add anyone of real note at this point. 

The last LB we took in the first two rounds was Ray Mauluga (round 2) 12 years ago in 2009.  Since that time we've tried to fill out the position group with middle round picks and bargain bin FA's.

Look, if you want to agree with that approach then that's your choice.  But I don't think anyone can refute that the team clearly doesn't value LB's like they do with other positions.  Nor do they value the position as much as other teams do.

People keep pointing to last years draft but I think that only strengthens my argument.  They immediately handed meaningful PT to a 3rd and 4th round rookie, signed a scrub in FA and pretended like they were perfectly fine there.

Here are the Top 30 LBs in the NFL last year according to PFF in order, and the round they were drafted:
- Fred Warner (Rd 3)
- Bobby Wagner (Rd 2)
- Eric Kendricks (Rd 2)
- Lavonte David (Rd 2)
- Demario Davis (Rd 3)
- Blake Martinez (Rd 4)
- KJ Wright (Rd 4)
- Mykal Walker (Rd 4)
- LJ Fort (UDFA)
- Darius Leonard (Rd 2)
- Myles Jack (Rd 2)
- Deion Jones (Rd 2)
- Josey Jewell (Rd 4)
- Kevin Pierre Louis (Rd 4)
- Malcolm Smith (Rd 7)
- Sione Takitaki (Rd 3)
- Roquan Smith (Rd 1)
- Nick Kwiatkoski (Rd 4)
- TJ Edwards (UDFA)
- Jayon Brown (Rd 5)
- BJ Goodson (Rd 4)
- Alexander Johnson (UDFA)
- Cole Holcomb (Rd 5)
- Jamie Collins (Rd 2)
- Nicholas Morrow (UDFA)
- Kyle Van Noy (Rd 2)
- Troy Reeder (UDFA)
- Zach Cunningham (Rd 2)
- Isaiah Simmons (Rd 1)
- Dre Greenlaw (Rd 5)

Most of the players in the Top 30 were drafted in Rds 2-4.
The Bengals have drafted Pratt and Wilson in Rd 3, ADG in Rd 4.

I think Rd 2 might be a sweet spot for the Bengals to take a new LB next year if they don't get good enough performance from at least two guys, but no way would I spend a 1st rounder on LB.
OL in Rd 1, LB in Rd 2.
If the OL actually comes a long way this year, I'd also be game for TE in Rd 1 (if there was a TE worth taking).

(05-10-2021, 02:20 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I would hope that the Bengals can actually realistically go deep in the playoffs by 2023, which would be Burrow's 54th year.

I sure hope we get there before Burrows is well into his 70’s.

I think this is recognition that our WR depth is terrible.

Thomas is a nice ST player but is a below average receiver. He should be the last WR on the roster, not 1 snap from starting.

Tate is slow as Christmas and whines about his utilization more than he gets open. He has theoretical utility as a big target in the red zone, but has only 1 TD in 3 years. No special teams value.

Neither of those guys play in the slot. We have no backup for Boyd. And no PR. Lees & Robinson are UDFAs.

We use a lot of 4 (or 5) WR sets. We need 5 quality WRs. We have 3.

Like Fred, I expected at least 2 in the draft. No issue with taking Ossai in the 3rd (great value pick), and I like the Sample & Shelvin picks. I'd have gone WR with the other 4th or the pick in the 5th (McPherson was a reach).

Will say the same thing I said before. Not sure I see where another 10 yard per catch WR is needed/fits. You already have Boyd/Tate/Thomas/Uzomah/Sample who are those 11-9 yard per catch guys.

Might as well have kept Erickson and just thrown the ball more to him if you want to add Westbrook.

I'd like to have a solid veteran mixed into this group, whether it be a #4/5 type just for depth other than Auden Tate. As I see it now we have:

1) Higgins
2) Chase
3) Boyd
4) Tate
5) Thomas
6) Morgan

- I just dont like 4-6, I'd look at Vets like this:

1) Kenny Stills- #4
2) Danny Amendola #5/PR capability
3) Golden Tate- #4

-all these guys would be a valuable backup, or a better #4 option than what we have.

(05-10-2021, 04:49 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Are all those 1st round LBs off-ball LBs, or are some of them 3-4 OLBs?

From what I see for off-ball LBs...
2021 - 3 (Parsons, Collins, Davis)

Not completely relevant to the conversation you're having here, but...

Collins, I question how long he'll be able to pretend to be an off-ball LB if he doesn't lose (and keep off) a lot of weight. 

At the medical combine he weighed in at 270, and he ran a 4.66 at his Pro Day (which is pretty universally accepted to be a faster time than people run at the combine). When he ran that he had already cut weight to 259 to run that. So he's probably even slower at his normal 270.

So he weighed in at 270 and ran ~4.73+ (they say add roughly .07 to a Pro Day time, the plus is for the extra weight).... I don't see that lasting as an off-ball LB. That's legitimately just a DE's numbers there. Dunlap ran a little faster and was just 7 pounds heavier at the combine.

(05-10-2021, 04:49 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Are all those 1st round LBs off-ball LBs, or are some of them 3-4 OLBs?

From what I see for off-ball LBs...
2021 - 3 (Parsons, Collins, Davis)
2020 - 3 (Simmons, Brooks, Queen)
2019 - 2 (White, Bush)
2018 - 4 (Smith, Edmunds, LVE, Evans)
2017 - 3 (Reddick, Davis, Foster)

There are a couple other guys who might have been given the label of LB, but they really are just EDGE rushers.
They are not really dropping into coverage hardly at all.

EDIT - And here are the guys from the above list who made the Top 50 LBs in the league last year according to PFF...
Roquan Smith - 17th
Isaiah Simmons - 29th
Rashaan Evans - 38th

So out of all the LBs taken in the 1st round 2017-2020, only 3 ended up in PFF's Top 50 in performance last season. To me, that shows that LB hasn't been worth the investment in the 1st round. Most of the guys in the Top 50 (and especially Top 30) are 2nd, 3rd, and 4th round draft picks.

I think "good linebacker" are a result of having a d line that wipes out the blockers giving the LBs good lanes and angles. 

Have not done the research but I'm guessing that most of the top 50 linebackers come from teams with top 10 to 15 D lines

(05-10-2021, 04:28 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Obviously we want those but we shouldn't keep trying to improve the team in any way that we can.

Once I saw that KC is interested...I stopped wondering. Once they get involved its like a blackhole swallowing up everything.   

I seen former 2st rounder Josh Doctson got cut after sitting out last year with the Jets. 3 years in Washington and one w/ Vikings. Not sure what happened to him, kind of like Ross. Lots of injuries but I remember everyone being so high on him coming out. Invite him in for a look?