(05-22-2021, 12:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: 1.  No it is not proving your point.  If they gave Marvin slack because they would not give him any help in free agency then Taylor is not getting that slack.

2.  The team may be reluctant to move on from coaches, but you still can't play the "every other team in the league would have done it" card.

3.  And, finally I see that you still refused to even mention that LeBeau was only given 2 off seasons to turn around ne of the worst teams in the league.

1. You also said "lack of help in the personnel department". Taylor still deals with that.

2. Maybe not, if you want to hang me on that statement, but my point still stands. The overwhelming majority of teams would've dumped Marvin at least once or twice during that run. Not to mention the other dudes.

3. Lebeau is the outlier. We've had 4 HC's before Taylor during the Mike era. 3 out of 4 were retained too long...objectively. The consensus back then was that the new stadium had a little to do with the uncharacteristically swift firing.

(05-22-2021, 12:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: 1.  No it is not proving your point.  If they gave Marvin slack because they would not give him any help in free agency then Taylor is not getting that slack.

2.  The team may be reluctant to move on from coaches, but you still can't play the "every other team in the league would have done it" card.

3.  And, finally I see that you still refused to even mention that LeBeau was only given 2 off seasons to turn around ne of the worst teams in the league.

LeBeau was an easier decision for the Bengals because he had just come off the worst season in their history and his 2 year deal expired after the season, so they didn't have to technically fire him or owe him any money.

I think this back and forth shows that folks will manipulate any fact they can find to support their stance.

The big question is: What is your stance

Mine is to support the Bengals

(05-22-2021, 10:05 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I think this back and forth shows that folks will manipulate any fact they can find to support their stance.

The big question is: What is your stance

Health on key players we are a competitive 6-10 win team that could sneak into the playoffs. Injuries or key players not performing to expectations and we are a bottom 5 team again.

I do think generally people are expecting us to be worse than I think we would be in a perfect world where we have all our guys all year.

(05-22-2021, 10:05 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I think this back and forth shows that folks will manipulate any fact they can find to support their stance.

The big question is: What is your stance

Mine is to support the Bengals

There isn't a "regular" on this board who doesnt want nothing more than the Bengals to be a winning franchise. The difference is do you continue to "support" a team with a front office that continues to disappoint fans season after season OR do you hold the front office accountable for its actions and bad decisions that result in bad results season after season?

In all honesty every Bengal fan is different and enjoys the sport in their way and nobody is wrong, it's what works for you! 

Either way does not make you any less or more of a fan.

And the way I look at it when I'm not having fun on here with everyone being a wiseass, all of us are die hard fans because we wouldn't be here otherwise. Being a Bengal fan is not easy. But I look at it as a badge of honor, its not hard to have been a Patriots fan these past 20 years, but we went through the shit and are still here waiting for our moment.

and waiting...and waiting...and waiting 

(05-22-2021, 10:24 PM)GodFather Wrote: There isn't a "regular" on this board who doesnt want nothing more than the Bengals to be a winning franchise. The difference is do you continue to "support" a team with a front office that continues to disappoint fans season after season OR do you hold the front office accountable for its actions and bad decisions that result in bad results season after season?

In all honesty every Bengal fan is different and enjoys the sport in their way and nobody is wrong, it's what works for you! 

Either way does not make you any less or more of a fan.

And the way I look at it when I'm not having fun on here with everyone being a wiseass, all of us are die hard fans because we wouldn't be here otherwise. Being a Bengal fan is not easy. But I look at it as a badge of honor, its not hard to have been a Patriots fan these past 20 years, but we went through the shit and are still here waiting for our moment.

and waiting...and waiting...and waiting 

Silly that this even needs to be said. We've all been regulars here for around a decade or longer. Anyone who tries to paint "negative" posters on here in a bad light is only doing so to puff themselves up and feel superior.

I'm not here for that. We all (well most) see what's held this team back for the last 30 years and at times we'll bring it up. Others prefer (or maybe need?) to keep things more rosy to make the product more palatable, I guess.

Neither view is necessarily wrong, and obviously we all love the team and want to see them dominate and win championships.

(05-22-2021, 10:05 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I think this back and forth shows that folks will manipulate any fact they can find to support their stance.

The big question is: What is your stance

Mine is to support the Bengals

(05-22-2021, 10:05 PM)bfine32 Wrote: The big question is: What is your stance

Mine is to support the Bengals

Mine is that I want the team to be successful.

(05-22-2021, 10:24 PM)GodFather Wrote: There isn't a "regular" on this board who doesnt want nothing more than the Bengals to be a winning franchise. The difference is do you continue to "support" a team with a front office that continues to disappoint fans season after season OR do you hold the front office accountable for its actions and bad decisions that result in bad results season after season?

In all honesty every Bengal fan is different and enjoys the sport in their way and nobody is wrong, it's what works for you! 

Either way does not make you any less or more of a fan.

And the way I look at it when I'm not having fun on here with everyone being a wiseass, all of us are die hard fans because we wouldn't be here otherwise. Being a Bengal fan is not easy. But I look at it as a badge of honor, its not hard to have been a Patriots fan these past 20 years, but we went through the shit and are still here waiting for our moment.

and waiting...and waiting...and waiting 

How do you hold someone that owes you nothing, accountable? People can choose to still be fans or move on.

(05-23-2021, 10:38 AM)sandwedge Wrote: How do you hold someone that owes you nothing, accountable? People can choose to still be fans or move on.

Owes me nothing... Sure.

But some of y'all pay for that stadium.

(05-23-2021, 10:38 AM)sandwedge Wrote: How do you hold someone that owes you nothing, accountable? People can choose to still be fans or move on.

How do the Bengals owe their fans, and specifically the local ones, nothing?

The county had paid out somewhere in the neighborhood of 900 million dollars for Paul Brown Stadium.  I'm not sure if those who live out of town can fully appreciate this.  It's not just some arbitrary number, it has a real cost.  A cost we've beared for 25 years.

I've actually tried before to roughly estimate just how much it's cost me personally, and it gets paid out in so many ways it's hard to do.  But I do know it's well into thousands.

Here's just a few real world examples of it, that someone who lives here experiences.

---20k car purchase  >>> $100 added in taxes goes to the Bengals.

---Spent 10k at Home Depot while remodeling >>> $50 in tax goes to the Bengals

---$150 at Target >>>  .75 cents into the Bengals tray.

---New $1,000 TV at Best Buy >>> $5 added in taxes goes to the Bengals.

---New Playstation or Xbox >>>> $2.50 added in taxes goes to the Bengas.

---12 pack of beer >>>  Throw .06 cents into the Bengals jar.

---Someone who has regularly smoked or dipped, had paid the Bengals over $300 just in taxes over these 25 years.

Now these might not sound like a lot on their own, but they had up.  We get taxed on everything.  So if you do this over and over, and over again you'll start to see how this gets so expensive. 

Most adults have probably bought 3 or 4 cars in these 25 years.  They've probably shopped for clothing at Target or Macy or Footlocker dozens and dozens of times.  They've probably had a handful of TV, and a couple of video game systems.  That .06 on beer looks a lot different when you account for hundreds of purchases.

So we're not really talking about a normal product.  It's not as simple as saying if you don't like this new flavor of Pringles then don't eat it.  This is subsidized by the tax payers of Hamilton County.

Nothing bothers me more on here than when people make this argument (they owe you nothing), especally when they're from out of town.  They do owe us.  They owe us a lot.

Not to mention, taxes aside, when you pay for a product (tickets purchased, advertising made off of your interest) you're entitled to complain about a substandard return.  If the Bengals were a normal product, like let's say an faulty or shitty HP laptop, the consumer would get a refund, replacment, or they'd return it.  If it were a messed up food order they'd either comp you, give you a new order, or give you a discount.  Unfortunately, that's not the case with a product like this.

Please stop saying the Bengals owe their fans nothing.  It's total bullshit.

/rantover

(05-22-2021, 10:05 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I think this back and forth shows that folks will manipulate any fact they can find to support their stance.

The big question is: What is your stance

Mine is to support the Bengals

Support is a pretty open ended word, though. 

(05-23-2021, 11:48 AM)Nately120 Wrote: Support is a pretty open ended word, though. 

True, It just seems many look for the dark cloud in front of the silver lining in every situation. 

Not saying one is "better" than the other; I just cannot understand the mentality. 

(05-23-2021, 11:16 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: How do the Bengals owe their fans, and specifically the local ones, nothing?

The county had paid out somewhere in the neighborhood of 900 million dollars for Paul Brown Stadium.  I'm not sure if those who live out of town can fully appreciate this.  It's not just some arbitrary number, it has a real cost.  A cost we've beared for 25 years.

I've actually tried before to roughly estimate just how much it's cost me personally, and it gets paid out in so many ways it's hard to do.  But I do know it's well into thousands.

Here's just a few real world examples of it, that someone who lives here experiences.

---20k car purchase  >>> $100 added in taxes goes to the Bengals.

---Spent 10k at Home Depot while remodeling >>> $50 in tax goes to the Bengals

---$150 at Target >>>  .75 cents into the Bengals tray.

---New $1,000 TV at Best Buy >>> $5 added in taxes goes to the Bengals.

---New Playstation or Xbox >>>> $2.50 added in taxes goes to the Bengas.

---12 pack of beer >>>  Throw .06 cents into the Bengals jar.

---Someone who has regularly smoked or dipped, had paid the Bengals over $300 just in taxes over these 25 years.

Now these might not sound like a lot on their own, but they had up.  We get taxed on everything.  So if you do this over and over, and over again you'll start to see how this gets so expensive. 

Most adults have probably bought 3 or 4 cars in these 25 years.  They've probably shopped for clothing at Target or Macy or Footlocker dozens and dozens of times.  They've probably had a handful of TV, and a couple of video game systems.  That .06 on beer looks a lot different when you account for hundreds of purchases.

So we're not really talking about a normal product.  It's not as simple as saying if you don't like this new flavor of Pringles then don't eat it.  This is subsidized by the tax payers of Hamilton County.

Nothing bothers me more on here than when people make this argument (they owe you nothing), especally when they're from out of town.  They do owe us.  They owe us a lot.

Not to mention, taxes aside, when you pay for a product (tickets purchased, advertising made off of your interest) you're entitled to complain about a substandard return.  If the Bengals were a normal product, like let's say an faulty or shitty HP laptop, the consumer would get a refund, replacment, or they'd return it.  If it were a messed up food order they'd either comp you, give you a new order, or give you a discount.  Unfortunately, that's not the case with a product like this.

Please stop saying the Bengals owe their fans nothing.  It's total bullshit.

/rantover

The citizens of Hamilton County voted for the sales tax, not the Bengals. 

(05-23-2021, 12:00 PM)bfine32 Wrote: The citizens of Hamilton County voted for the sales tax, not the Bengals. 

Your point?

(05-23-2021, 12:11 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Your point?

Your county owes you, not the Bengals. Pretty sure the Bengals have brought a lot to the economy of Hamilton County. The Bengals owe you nothing more than to remain in Hamilton County. 

(05-23-2021, 12:17 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Your county owes you, not the Bengals. Pretty sure the Bengals have brought a lot to the economy of Hamilton County. The Bengals owe you nothing more than to remain in Hamilton County. 

They both owe me.  They (the Bengals) were heavily involved in that entire process and helped shape public opinion.  They also hired the county commissioner (Bob Beddinghaus) who spearheaded the entire campaign on the county side (shady AF).

As far as the bringing a lot to the economy of the county, that has been disproven numerous times.  And not just here, but in general.  NFL teams don't bring in anywhere near what they claim.  Their numbers rely on some of the most ridiculous assumptions (No one would do anything on Sundays or spend if there wasn't football, every restaurant and bar patron within so many miles is only eating or drinking there because of the NFL, etc.)

(05-23-2021, 12:00 PM)bfine32 Wrote: The citizens of Hamilton County voted for the sales tax, not the Bengals. 

Maybe the vote was rigged. 

(05-23-2021, 11:06 AM)jason Wrote: Owes me nothing... Sure.

But some of y'all pay for that stadium.

I try so hard to not think about that statement when making purchases.... 

Go and pick out a nice new grill, realize I'm giving money to the county for the damn stadium deal and that asshole Mike Brown. It creates a strange divide in emotions and the desire to drive to Kentucky and Indiana for purchases.

Thankfully Party Source is in Newport/Bellevue.

(05-23-2021, 11:16 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: How do the Bengals owe their fans, and specifically the local ones, nothing?

The county had paid out somewhere in the neighborhood of 900 million dollars for Paul Brown Stadium.  I'm not sure if those who live out of town can fully appreciate this.  It's not just some arbitrary number, it has a real cost.  A cost we've beared for 25 years.

I've actually tried before to roughly estimate just how much it's cost me personally, and it gets paid out in so many ways it's hard to do.  But I do know it's well into thousands.

Here's just a few real world examples of it, that someone who lives here experiences.

---20k car purchase  >>> $100 added in taxes goes to the Bengals.

---Spent 10k at Home Depot while remodeling >>> $50 in tax goes to the Bengals

---$150 at Target >>>  .75 cents into the Bengals tray.

---New $1,000 TV at Best Buy >>> $5 added in taxes goes to the Bengals.

---New Playstation or Xbox >>>> $2.50 added in taxes goes to the Bengas.

---12 pack of beer >>>  Throw .06 cents into the Bengals jar.

---Someone who has regularly smoked or dipped, had paid the Bengals over $300 just in taxes over these 25 years.

Now these might not sound like a lot on their own, but they had up.  We get taxed on everything.  So if you do this over and over, and over again you'll start to see how this gets so expensive. 

Most adults have probably bought 3 or 4 cars in these 25 years.  They've probably shopped for clothing at Target or Macy or Footlocker dozens and dozens of times.  They've probably had a handful of TV, and a couple of video game systems.  That .06 on beer looks a lot different when you account for hundreds of purchases.

So we're not really talking about a normal product.  It's not as simple as saying if you don't like this new flavor of Pringles then don't eat it.  This is subsidized by the tax payers of Hamilton County.

Nothing bothers me more on here than when people make this argument (they owe you nothing), especally when they're from out of town.  They do owe us.  They owe us a lot.

Not to mention, taxes aside, when you pay for a product (tickets purchased, advertising made off of your interest) you're entitled to complain about a substandard return.  If the Bengals were a normal product, like let's say an faulty or shitty HP laptop, the consumer would get a refund, replacment, or they'd return it.  If it were a messed up food order they'd either comp you, give you a new order, or give you a discount.  Unfortunately, that's not the case with a product like this.

Please stop saying the Bengals owe their fans nothing.  It's total bullshit.

/rantover

This story below from a few years back furthers your point.

https://www.wcpo.com/news/insider/county-has-spent-920m-in-deal-to-build-stadium-keep-nfl-team-in-town-since-2000



The agreement between the county and the Bengals is still viewed as one of the worst agreements ever made. 

https://www.businessinsider.com/worst-stadium-deal-cincinnati-2011-7


The Bengals absolutely owe the people of Hamilton County more then what they have given to them. The absolute total lack of effort in terms of fielding a competitive team from a management on down standpoint is complete and utter crap. 

The good news is, five more years and the deal is done.