(06-03-2021, 02:52 PM)ochocincos Wrote: The shorter the routes, usually the higher the completion percentage.

The reality is Sample had the lowest YPR (8.7) of all TEs who had 30+ receptions.

He may be sure-handed, but he's not exciting as a pass catcher in any way, shape, or form.

That's a little harsh.  He made a one-handed grab last season that would have been on a ton of highlight reels if it were someone like Gronk.  

(06-03-2021, 03:36 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: That's a little harsh.  He made a one-handed grab last season that would have been on a ton of highlight reels if it were someone like Gronk.  

Fair enough.
I was referring more to gaining a good chunk of yardage on a play.
His longest yards gained on a reception was 23 last year and 21 the year before.
By comparison, Uzomah's longest reception was 54 yards, Eifert's longest was 71 yards, and Gresham's longest was 55 yards.

(06-03-2021, 08:51 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I was looking up the RB numbers on targets to try and project how many will go Mixon's way if he would be healthy all season.  (I settled on 60 targets with 50 receptions...but I digress).  

Looking at all the receivers outside of the RBs, who would you have guessed had the highest catch %?

My guess was Sample, which obviously turned out to be right. However, catch % is just one stat and not enough of one for me to believe he should start. I don't know how many targets he had and haven't looked up a thing, but my guess is that he wasn't a factor as a receiver.

 

(06-03-2021, 02:01 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: I know a couple of those were my personal favorite:  The TE screen.  Sample is underrated here as both a blocker and as a receiver.  Probably the fact that he was "overdrafted" in the minds of many in Rd 2.  

People would also probably be surprised to know that he has 19 more receptions than Uzomah did at this point in his career.  Both of their rookie seasons were pretty much a loss, but Sample's 40 receptions in his sophomore season was only surpassed by Uzomah ONCE in his career.  It was Uzo's fourth season where he had 43 receptions.

I hope both of them can get about 60 receptions in 2021, with Uzo getting more downfield shots and Sample moving the chains.  

That's all fine and good but I've seen flashes from Uz his whole career that makes me want to see more.

Not a single one from Sample except maybe that grab you mentioned.

I hope the guy proves me wrong but if you looked up the definition of "meh" in the dictionary Drew's picture should be beside it.

Hey at least I'm not throwing the "B" word in this discussion.

(06-03-2021, 11:24 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: It should be no surprise he lead the team in catch percentage.  When the ball travels and average of 3.8 yards and you're usually completely uncovered it's only logical that you're going to have a higher catch percentage than those who actually running legitimate routes in legitmate coverages.

Okay, so he did really well at what he was asked to do.  Is it really his fault that the team only asked him to be a blocker and dump off guy?

(06-03-2021, 11:24 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Here's some interesting stats from Drew Sample, which you can check here in the "Advanced Receiving and Rushing":

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/S/SampDr00.htm

Yards Per Reception - 8.7
Yards Per Target - 6.0
Yards Before Catch - 3.8
Yards After Catch - 5.0
Total Yards Before Catch - 151
Total Yards After Catch - 198

Drew Sample average catch upon completion was under 4 yards.  Really try to wrap your head around that number.  3.8 yards.  That's insanely low.

He actually got more yards after the catch than he did in his route.  Does he strike you as the type of guy to elude tacklers?  The reason this number is what it is is because they would just dump it off to him, usually when he was completely uncovered.  Then he'd lumber forward until a defender would finally pick him up.

It should be no surprise he lead the team in catch percentage.  When the ball travels and average of 3.8 yards and you're usually completely uncovered it's only logical that you're going to have a higher catch percentage than those who actually running legitimate routes in legitmate coverages.

Deeper TE-Y routes depend on play action.

I guessed Sample because TEs almost always have a higher catch % than WR's, because they generally run shorter/easier routes. Then I guessed that the TE would be Sample because it's implied that you were surprised. Easy peezy.

(06-03-2021, 08:44 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Okay, so he did really well at what he was asked to do.  Is it really his fault that the team only asked him to be a blocker and dump off guy?

We'll have to agree to disagree on the "he did really well at what he was asked to do" part.  Almost any TE could do really well at catching 4 yard passes.

The question I have is why they asked him to do so little.  CJ Uzomah, who on his very best day is average at best, was asked to do something very different in weeks 1 and 2 playing in the same exact offense, with the same playbook and with the same personnel.  Why would they completely change how the position is used once Sample became TE1?  My guess is because he's an absolutely garbage receiving threat and they know it.

I'm sorry, but whoever called for this pick needs to be removed from football decisions immediately.  They ought to be out of the league.  You don't draft a guy in the 2nd round that is this much of a nobody in the pass game.  You can find players like this in the late rounds, if not as UDFA's.

(06-03-2021, 08:44 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Okay, so he did really well at what he was asked to do.  Is it really his fault that the team only asked him to be a blocker and dump off guy?

Took the words out of my mouth. Guy does what is asked of him.

(06-03-2021, 09:35 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: We'll have to agree to disagree on the "he did really well at what he was asked to do" part.  Almost any TE could do really well at catching 4 yard passes.

The question I have is why they asked him to do so little.  CJ Uzomah, who on his very best day is average at best, was asked to do something very different in weeks 1 and 2 playing in the same exact offense, with the same playbook and with the same personnel.  Why would they completely change how the position is used once Sample became TE1?  My guess is because he's an absolutely garbage receiving threat and they know it.

I'm sorry, but whoever called for this pick needs to be removed from football decisions immediately.  They ought to be out of the league.  You don't draft a guy in the 2nd round that is this much of a nobody in the pass game.  You can find players like this in the late rounds, if not as UDFA's.

You'd be surprised at how wrong you are. Finding a TE that is very good at blocking and very good at catching the ball is rare. 

(06-03-2021, 10:23 PM)sandwedge Wrote: Took the words out of my mouth. Guy does what is asked of him.

Man I hope you're right.

Wasn't targeted in college.

Used in sparse receiving role in pros.

Just a victim of circumstances?

We shall see...

(06-03-2021, 10:29 PM)sandwedge Wrote: You'd be surprised at how wrong you are. Finding a TE that is very good at blocking and very good at catching the ball is rare. 

He's not very good at catching the ball. (????????)

Have you looked at his numbers?  He's a complete non-factor in the pass game.  Despite finishing top 5 in snaps played he's sub 30 in production. 

Defensive coordinators arent afraid of Sample.when.the ball.is
In his hands. Even in.the red.zone Sample is a non.factor to DCs

(06-03-2021, 11:05 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: He's not very good at catching the ball. ????????

Have you looked at his numbers?  He's a complete non-factor in the pass game.  Despite finishing top 5 in snaps played he's sub 30 in production. 

I'm not sure we have a big enough Sample size to judge him yet.

I have no issues with Sample. Short passes? Tom Brady makes a pretty good living with short passes all day..

(06-03-2021, 06:04 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Fair enough.
I was referring more to gaining a good chunk of yardage on a play.
His longest yards gained on a reception was 23 last year and 21 the year before.
By comparison, Uzomah's longest reception was 54 yards, Eifert's longest was 71 yards, and Gresham's longest was 55 yards.

Good point.  Sample is, after one complete season (his rookie year was mostly injured), a better blocker than either of the other three.  

(06-03-2021, 11:55 AM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Here's a list of the top 41 Tight Ends in 2020 (I included Uzomah for the +1) and their Average Yards Before Catch:

Richard Rodgers - 10.4
Jared Cook - 10.3
Mike Gesicki - 10.1
Mark Andrews - 8.9
Dan Arnold - 8.5
Rob Gronkoski - 8.4
Irv Smith - 8.0
Travis Kelce - 7.9
Cameron Brate - 7.5
Cj Uzomah - 7.1
George Kittle - 7.0
Jack Doyle - 7.0
Robert Tonyan - 7.0
Dallas Goedert - 6.9
Zach Ertz - 6.9
Mo Alie-Cox - 6.8
Tyler Eifert - 6.6
Hunter Henry - 6.5
Eric Ebron - 6.5
Tyler Higbee - 6.4
Darren Fells - 6.4
Anthony Fisker - 6.3
Jordan Akins - 6.2
Kyle Rudolph - 6.1
TJ Hockenson - 5.9
Hayden Hurst - 5.8
Eric Ebron - 5.8
Trey Burton - 5.8
Darren Waller - 5.8
Austin Hooper - 5.7
Jordan Reed - 5.7
Logan Thomas - 5.3
Dalton Schultz - 5.3
Dawson Knox - 5.3
Jimmy Graham - 5.1
Jonnu Smith - 5.1
Chris Herndon - 5.1
Harrison Bryant - 5.0
Noah Fant - 4.8
Gerald Everett - 4.2
Drew Sample - 3.8

Now, keep in mind, these stats don't mean a whole bunch on their own.  Guys who get more work at a variety of routes will have lower averages then guys who strictly run on late downs and longer distances.  It doesn't mean they're better by any means.  Also, guys who get a ton of work in the Red Zone will have lower numbers as well.

But I think this illustrates the types of routes these guys were asked to run, and I think it gives a little more perspective.

Though it was just 2 games.. CJ showed early returns in those two games that he might be headed to a very solid top 10 TE year.. hope he starts off this year like last year... 

(06-04-2021, 07:39 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Good point.  Sample is, after one complete season (his rookie year was mostly injured), a better blocker than either of the other three.  

He's a good blocker. But what good teams nowadays don't deploy a TE who at least has decent pass catching ability?
If your TE on the field is often being kept in as a blocker and/or not much of a threat in the passing game, you're losing a playmaker.
Sample may be one of the best blockers, but he's one of the worst in terms of receiving production.
The Bengals don't even have a TE on the list of Top 32 preseason rankings on PFF - https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-pff-tight-end-rankings-2021-nfl-season

It's pretty bad when you don't even make it above a guy like Blake Jarwin.
Jarwin was a UDFA who had 307-3 in 2018 and 365-3 in 2019 with DAL before only playing a single game last year due to injury.
Jarwin still had a better 2019 than Sample had in 2020.
Not good if a 2nd round pick is less productive as a pass catcher than a UDFA on another team.

And before anyone says Sample was just used as a blocker so much, he had the 15th-most receiving snaps out of all TEs (433).
He had more receiving snaps than Mark Andrews, who put up 701-7 last year.

(06-03-2021, 11:05 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: He's not very good at catching the ball. (????????)

Have you looked at his numbers?  He's a complete non-factor in the pass game.  Despite finishing top 5 in snaps played he's sub 30 in production. 

He was targeted 53 times and caught 40 balls. That is 75%. 

The only thing I can say is I hope with an improved line, healthy JB, and ZT get his play calling together

We see improved numbers from Sample. Is he ever going to be a top tier TE ? I doubt it