(06-13-2021, 04:08 PM)Beaker Wrote: But you're convinced a 16 foot giant ate people in Afghanistan. Gotcha. 

Its people like you that I don't worry about. You will believe your own absurd notions no matter what evidence is put in front of you to the contrary. If it conflicts with your particular world view it has to be BS. I get to teach our youth the true facts, while you simply get to put forth unsubstantiated myths on a message board.

If someone wishes to oppose the Theory of Evolution by Natural Selection, that's one thing. When they assert evolution itself is untrue, that's a completely different proposition that is not based in reality, as evolution is a fact. I think people often confuse the actual process of evolution with the explanation for said process; which itself is thoroughly disappointing as it's easily and readily accessible to anyone with access to a school, a library or an internet connection.

(06-13-2021, 04:08 PM)Beaker Wrote: But you're convinced a 16 foot giant ate people in Afghanistan. Gotcha. 

Its people like you that I don't worry about. You will believe your own absurd notions no matter what evidence is put in front of you to the contrary. If it conflicts with your particular world view it has to be BS. I get to teach our youth the true facts, while you simply get to put forth unsubstantiated myths on a message board.

Funny how your absurd notions of coming from goo makes more sense to you and teaching the youth lies is a good thing Beaker.

I agree with you on football and I like you but I have seen evidence that you would refute no matter the evidence.

It is what it is man, we just will never agree on this, you have a job to do, indoctrination. I don't do that and don't believe in it at all.

At least you said what you do. That was honest of you.

(06-13-2021, 05:25 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: If your scientific knowledge base is formed around stories from the bible. You may have some outdated theories. Sounds like someone spent some coin at the Ark Encounter.

I get why religious types are not big on accepting the fact our lives are absolutely itsy bitsy teeny tiny flashes in the pan in the grand scheme of time. It's an unsettling concept.

I believe our ancestors slayed some monsters. And at the same time I am totally stunned there are adults who think a story from some ancient book about some guy building a boat and loading it up with two of every animal on earth while the entire planet flooded is plausible but evolution, time, and thousands of years of human civilization later with all the scientific advancements, collective knowledge,  and discoveries is too far out to believe.

You must of watched that Russell Crowe movie LMAO!

It was terrible, hollywood....

I don't know how everything happened, I only have faith man. It is cool if you don't even if I find it sad.

I do understand others not understanding as everything is very vague to us that comes from the Bible.

That is why I pray on it and pray for discernment. Its all good Nati, hope I didn't offend.

(06-13-2021, 05:37 PM)Lucidus Wrote: In an effort to be as respectable as possible, I will simply describe your post as unfortunate. Perhaps the educational system failed your greatly in terms of scientific basics and critical thinking skills, or perhaps you simply prefer conspiracies, anti-scientific theories or ideologies that claim to be true because they fall outside evidence based consensus. In either case, it's unfortunate nevertheless. 

When you assert that evidence for the flood is all around us, it's simply not true. In fact, there is no evidence at all that would suggest a global flood. If scientists thought was was such evidence, they would be pursuing it to great degrees in hopes of making an incredible discovery. They would not be attempting to "cover it up" as you asserted. 

You referenced the origin of the word dinosaur. It's a combination of the Greek words "deinos" and "sauros" and first used in around 1841 by Richard Owen as a means to categorize a certain family of fossils, which he coined "dinosauria". He invented the term to describe large reptiles that lived hundreds of millions of year prior. He realized these fossils were deserving of their own distinct taxonomic grouping; as there was no useful utility in ambiguous labels.

The subject of giants killing soldiers in Afghanistan is the product of conspiratorial and supernatural sites around the web that have been spreading said nonsense for years and have yet to provide even a scintilla of proof. I'm astonished [although I probably shouldn't be] that anyone with even the slightest level of cognitive reasoning would believe such a thing.

Finally, when you assert that the Bible should be taken more literally, does that include instructions on owning your fellow human beings, treating women as second class citizens, forcing rape victims to marry their assailants and killing unruly children?

Are you a teacher Lucidus? Just wondering, you sound like one who likes to teach this BS to children?

The Bible is History, it isn't just written in stone. It is written in your heart, it is the word. Not something you should take so lightly.

I am astonished a man of such intellect could think that everything in the Bible is about hurting women and raping them and killing 
them. This is where you go out of line and do not understand what the meaning of life is. Life is a test. It isn't supposed to be easy.

BTW, back to the thread. I saw a cool vid of UFO's flying in and out of volcanoes before, was pretty damn wild. They must be lava 
proof. Don't know what metal they have on their ships but they wouldn't be flying in and out of volcanoes if they were flammable.

(06-13-2021, 07:28 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Are you a teacher Lucidus? Just wondering, you sound like one who likes to teach this BS to children?

The Bible is History, it isn't just written in stone. It is written in your heart, it is the word. Not something you should take so lightly.

I am astonished a man of such intellect could think that everything in the Bible is about hurting women and raping them and killing 
them. This is where you go out of line and do not understand what the meaning of life is. Life is a test. It isn't supposed to be easy.

BTW, back to the thread. I saw a cool vid of UFO's flying in and out of volcanoes before, was pretty damn wild. They must be lava 
proof. Don't know what metal they have on their ships but they wouldn't be flying in and out of volcanoes if they were flammable.

I'm a neuropsychologist. When you refer to teaching BS, you are basically stating that known reality, facts, evidence and the best current scientific models are BS. If that is indeed your stance sir, then I must ask what in the world you would want taught? 

Everything I mentioned is very literally stated in the Bible. I'm very curious as to why you dismiss those and say it's out of line to bring them up? That is to say, if you feel the Bible should be taken more literally, how can you then want less literal interpretation of the uncomfortable parts?

(06-13-2021, 07:14 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Funny how your absurd notions of coming from goo makes more sense to you and teaching the youth lies is a good thing Beaker.

I agree with you on football and I like you but I have seen evidence that you would refute no matter the evidence.

It is what it is man, we just will never agree on this, you have a job to do, indoctrination. I don't do that and don't believe in it at all.

At least you said what you do. That was honest of you.

Funny how you call me presenting evidence that has withstood the scientific method and advances in technology as indoctrination. Yet you refer to a 2000+ yr old collection of parables with no tangible evidence to support anything it puts forth....much of it in direct opposition to simple logic...as the truth. But you go on doing you. 

(06-13-2021, 08:05 PM)Lucidus Wrote: I'm a neuropsychologist. When you refer to teaching BS, you are basically stating that known reality, facts, evidence and the best current scientific models are BS. If that is indeed your stance sir, then I must ask what in the world you would want taught? 

Everything I mentioned is very literally stated in the Bible. I'm very curious as to why you dismiss those and say it's out of line to bring them up? That is to say, if you feel the Bible should be taken more literally, how can you then want less literal interpretation of the uncomfortable parts?

Thanks man, needed to know, I am a Carpenter and worked in the labor force my entire life so you might call me a peasant or 
something alike. I want the truth taught to children is all and at least let them think for themselves. You talked like everything in 
the Bible is about killing children and raping women which just isn't true. That is entirely evil and something we should all learn 
from. That is what the Bible is about Lucidus. Life is a test, be good, love Jesus who died for your sins.

But don't think I am pushing this on you, you are a free agent sir.

(06-13-2021, 08:47 PM)Beaker Wrote: Funny how you call me presenting evidence that has withstood the scientific method and advances in technology as indoctrination. Yet you refer to a 2000+ yr old collection of parables with no tangible evidence to support anything it puts forth....much of it in direct opposition to simple logic...as the truth. But you go on doing you. 

I don't believe in your scientific method bro, it is all good.

Same to you. We are still buds right?

Hope I didn't offend you, you are one of my favorite posters of all time.

(06-13-2021, 08:05 PM)Lucidus Wrote: I'm a neuropsychologist. When you refer to teaching BS, you are basically stating that known reality, facts, evidence and the best current scientific models are BS. If that is indeed your stance sir, then I must ask what in the world you would want taught? 

Everything I mentioned is very literally stated in the Bible. I'm very curious as to why you dismiss those and say it's out of line to bring them up? That is to say, if you feel the Bible should be taken more literally, how can you then want less literal interpretation of the uncomfortable parts?

I really have no dog in this fight, as I believe the Bible and Evolution can go hand in hand and are not mutually exclusive. That said, I don't know you Lucidus, you're probably a great guy but you are coming off as one of those smug science worshippers who think science is the answer to everything and is absolute. Except it's not. How many times has a scientific fact later been proven wrong? It was once known reality that the world was flat. The best scientific models are only the best scientific models until a better one comes along that can disprove it. Sometimes science worshippers tend to forget the very basis of science, which is to question everything. Oh, and as for the Bible, you realize there are two books, right? The 1st book is all about wrath and slaying and eyes for eyes, etc. Then this kid was born and a 2nd book was written and it becomes about loving your enemy, forgiveness, etc. The second book supersedes the first. Hence Old Testament vs. New Testament.

I have no dog in the science/religion fight either. But I'll say this, I strongly believe the history of this world, the true history, is nothing at all like we were taught in school. And we don't yet know what that history even was.

(06-14-2021, 09:15 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I don't believe in your scientific method bro, it is all good.

Same to you. We are still buds right?

Hope I didn't offend you, you are one of my favorite posters of all time.

Again, science doesn't require belief, only understanding, its religion which requires belief. 

Just so you know, I didn't reach my current world view by simply dismissing religion. I have read many religious texts including the bible, the Quran, the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying, holistic texts such as a Course in Miracles, etc. In addition, I found science to be quite logical and thorough at explaining why and how many things occur in nature. I found religion as more of a way to seek inner peace, but not so good at explaining why things occur in nature. I am totally open to changing my world view should something else provide strong evidence to explain things. I even allow for the possibility that a creator got life started, but I'm also very certain that once it began it has proceeded via evolution. Could it be that if there is a creator, that evolution was the way they intended for life to proceed? Could be. 

I would not exclude you as a friend or acquaintance because we have different views on certain topics. Different views and beliefs are what lead us to discovery and truth. Staying in the same rut surrounding yourself with only those that think exactly like you it what prevents advancement in thinking and discovery. So no, I rarely get offended irl, and never on a message board. Its all good. 

(06-14-2021, 09:13 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Thanks man, needed to know, I am a Carpenter and worked in the labor force my entire life so you might call me a peasant or 
something alike. I want the truth taught to children is all and at least let them think for themselves. You talked like everything in 
the Bible is about killing children and raping women which just isn't true. That is entirely evil and something we should all learn 
from. That is what the Bible is about Lucidus. Life is a test, be good, love Jesus who died for your sins.

But don't think I am pushing this on you, you are a free agent sir.

I would never refer to you as a peasant, nor anyone that works in a field that requires manual labor. My husband owns and operates a greenhouse and has done so for many years. He does manual work on a daily basis. 

As to certain aspects of the Bible that I find egregious and abhorrent, I never stated that it was the majority content, only that it was prevalent and extremely problematic in my view. The fact that we can find passages in a holy book that are truly wicked should provide pause and serious examination before insisting that it should be taken more literally, which was your initial assertion.

As to the notion of sin and atonement, I find that concept entirely nonsensical and somewhat maniacal. Any concept that states that you or I should be held responsible for the actions of those that came before us, for which we had zero involvement, is unjust by it's very nature. Should my descendants be imprisoned for crimes that I committed? Of course, that leads to the offer of forgiveness [by way of sacrificial atonement]. The idea that if you subjugate yourself to a certain criterion, you can be pardoned because your sentence has already been served by someone else prior to the crime ever being committed is not at all a system that relies on fairness or equitableness. Instead, is seems more the case to be a concept derived from ancient people creating loopholes for strict doctrine and impositions that proceeded the NT and the introduction of a pathway to salvation. 

(06-15-2021, 08:35 AM)Sled21 Wrote: I really have no dog in this fight, as I believe the Bible and Evolution can go hand in hand and are not mutually exclusive. That said, I don't know you Lucidus, you're probably a great guy but you are coming off as one of those smug science worshippers who think science is the answer to everything and is absolute. Except it's not. How many times has a scientific fact later been proven wrong? It was once known reality that the world was flat. The best scientific models are only the best scientific models until a better one comes along that can disprove it. Sometimes science worshippers tend to forget the very basis of science, which is to question everything. Oh, and as for the Bible, you realize there are two books, right? The 1st book is all about wrath and slaying and eyes for eyes, etc. Then this kid was born and a 2nd book was written and it becomes about loving your enemy, forgiveness, etc. The second book supersedes the first. Hence Old Testament vs. New Testament.

I certainly don't worship science; nor do I worship anything. I do however, have confidence in the scientific method, as it has proven to be the best and most reliable means of investigating, exploring and providing explanations for the reality that we live in. We benefit from science every single day and in almost every aspect of our lives. 

You are correct when stating that science is not perfect and has made mistakes. That's part of the process. However, when science does make a mistake, do you know how said mistake is rectified? By way of the scientific method. Science is necessarily self-correcting, in that the goal is to always come closer to the most factual and reliable approximations / understandings / explanations. In that sense, science is constantly bottlenecking; striving to get closer and closer to the most accurate answers or models. There has never been a case where science was wrong about something and it the remedy was found in any religious book. The mistakes of science have always been rectified by using the scientific method to identify the mistake, what led to the mistake and finding a solution to fix the mistake. 

I find it interesting that you stated the second book [NT] supersedes the first [OT]. Both books are asserted to be inspired by the same God. The same God who offers a path to salvation is the second book also gave instructions on how to own other human beings in the first book. The God who often speaks in peaceful platitudes in the second book also orders genocides in the first. Moreover, it is stated very clearly in the NT that Jesus did not some to destroy the law of the Prophets, but to fulfill them. Take slavery for example. The NT never instructs people to not own their fellow humans as property. Instead, the instruction is "be good to your masters". 

Two books. One God. Did God's character, morality or "unchanging" nature suddenly change between books? Is there not a conflict there? How does one explain the chaotic, bi-polar, mistake-laden and rather capricious tendencies of this God; a God that is supposed to be perfect? 

(06-15-2021, 01:10 PM)Lucidus Wrote: I would never refer to you as a peasant, nor anyone that works in a field that requires manual labor. My husband owns and operates a greenhouse and has done so for many years. He does manual work on a daily basis. 

As to certain aspects of the Bible that I find egregious and abhorrent, I never stated that it was the majority content, only that it was prevalent and extremely problematic in my view. The fact that we can find passages in a holy book that are truly wicked should provide pause and serious examination before insisting that it should be taken more literally, which was your initial assertion.

As to the notion of sin and atonement, I find that concept entirely nonsensical and somewhat maniacal. Any concept that states that you or I should be held responsible for the actions of those that came before us, for which we had zero involvement, is unjust by it's very nature. Should my descendants be imprisoned for crimes that I committed? Of course, that leads to the offer of forgiveness [by way of sacrificial atonement]. The idea that if you subjugate yourself to a certain criterion, you can be pardoned because your sentence has already been served by someone else prior to the crime ever being committed is not at all a system that relies on fairness or equitableness. Instead, is seems more the case to be a concept derived from ancient people creating loopholes for strict doctrine and impositions that proceeded the NT and the introduction of a pathway to salvation. 


I certainly don't worship science; nor do I worship anything. I do however, have confidence in the scientific method, as it has proven to be the best and most reliable means of investigating, exploring and providing explanations for the reality that we live in. We benefit from science every single day and in almost every aspect of our lives. 

You are correct when stating that science is not perfect and has made mistakes. That's part of the process. However, when science does make a mistake, do you know how said mistake is rectified? By way of the scientific method. Science is necessarily self-correcting, in that the goal is to always come closer to the most factual and reliable approximations / understandings / explanations. In that sense, science is constantly bottlenecking; striving to get closer and closer to the most accurate answers or models. There has never been a case where science was wrong about something and it the remedy was found in any religious book. The mistakes of science have always been rectified by using the scientific method to identify the mistake, what led to the mistake and finding a solution to fix the mistake. 

I find it interesting that you stated the second book [NT] supersedes the first [OT]. Both books are asserted to be inspired by the same God. The same God who offers a path to salvation is the second book also gave instructions on how to own other human beings in the first book. The God who often speaks in peaceful platitudes in the second book also orders genocides in the first. Moreover, it is stated very clearly in the NT that Jesus did not some to destroy the law of the Prophets, but to fulfill them. Take slavery for example. The NT never instructs people to not own their fellow humans as property. Instead, the instruction is "be good to your masters". 

Two books. One God. Did God's character, morality or "unchanging" nature suddenly change between books? Is there not a conflict there? How does one explain the chaotic, bi-polar, mistake-laden and rather capricious tendencies of this God; a God that is supposed to be perfect? 

Right, a scientific fact is only a fact until disproven. But that happens all the time, so scientific facts are only what we believe to be true at the point in time. I'm not a science denier by any means, but I am skeptical of all things. And by it's nature, true science requires that.

Nope, no conflict. Two words. Jesus Christ who died on the cross for all our sins. 

Let's stay on UFO guys right ?

Beliefs are beliefs and to everyone his own even if they make no sense for other people.

(06-15-2021, 02:21 PM)Arturo Bandini Wrote: Let's stay on UFO guys right ?

Beliefs are beliefs and to everyone his own even if they make no sense for other people.

Ancient astronauts..... the drawings in history are really something.

(06-15-2021, 03:14 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Ancient astronauts..... the drawings in history are really something.

As I said, maybe it's just people from the future. 

Still think the space is too big. 

Or maybe it was just the first Sci Fi novel of history :)

(06-15-2021, 08:35 AM)Sled21 Wrote: I really have no dog in this fight, as I believe the Bible and Evolution can go hand in hand and are not mutually exclusive. That said, I don't know you Lucidus, you're probably a great guy but you are coming off as one of those smug science worshippers who think science is the answer to everything and is absolute. Except it's not. How many times has a scientific fact later been proven wrong? It was once known reality that the world was flat. The best scientific models are only the best scientific models until a better one comes along that can disprove it. Sometimes science worshippers tend to forget the very basis of science, which is to question everything. Oh, and as for the Bible, you realize there are two books, right? The 1st book is all about wrath and slaying and eyes for eyes, etc. Then this kid was born and a 2nd book was written and it becomes about loving your enemy, forgiveness, etc. The second book supersedes the first. Hence Old Testament vs. New Testament.

We could put that another way. If science is a student learning they stay hungry and continue reading to look for more knowledge and accept when they get an answer wrong by adapting their understanding and moving on. If religion is a student learning they sit there with their arms crossed, claim they have already read the book and know all the answers and nothing can change their mind.

It just seems like an easy out to me. Instead of accepting it’s a vastly complicated reality that we will never fully comprehend people find it easier to listen to the story from the guy wearing the fancy costume and blame/credit god for everything.

(06-15-2021, 09:13 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I have no dog in the science/religion fight either. But I'll say this, I strongly believe the history of this world, the true history, is nothing at all like we were taught in school. And we don't yet know what that history even was.

We might be somewhat close on our guess but I agree and I don’t think we will ever know the true history. Hell we are tearing down statues that aren’t even 200 years old and that stuff a few years back when Isis was destroying ancient stuff. I’d imagine it has happened repeatedly throughout human history. We don’t even know our history and we can communicate with each other. We damn sure won’t be able to piece together the entire story of the planet with rocks and bones.

(06-15-2021, 04:52 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: We could put that another way. If science is a student learning they stay hungry and continue reading to look for more knowledge and accept when they get an answer wrong by adapting their understanding and moving on. If religion is a student learning they sit there with their arms crossed, claim they have already read the book and know all the answers and nothing can change their mind.

It just seems like an easy out to me. Instead of accepting it’s a vastly complicated reality that we will never fully comprehend people find it easier to listen to the story from the guy wearing the fancy costume and blame/credit god for everything.

I know just as many people who are stubborn about so called scientific facts as I do people who are stubborn in the religious beliefs. Both groups are closed minded.

(06-13-2021, 08:47 PM)Beaker Wrote: Funny how you call me presenting evidence that has withstood the scientific method and advances in technology as indoctrination. Yet you refer to a 2000+ yr old collection of parables with no tangible evidence to support anything it puts forth....much of it in direct opposition to simple logic...as the truth. But you go on doing you. 

I'm in the camp that science and religion aren't mutually exclusive. I believe in the bible, Jesus, and evolution. I don't take the Old Testament super literal...I believe God created us through the power and process of evolution.