(07-13-2021, 12:03 PM)TJ528 Wrote: At the end of the day it's truly not up to Burrow.  There's a reason the Bengals have a medical staff, and coaching staff. 

If they want to hold Burrow out for the preseason because they want to make sure the knee is as close to 100% healed as possible they will. 

They have an investment in this player and the ROI is more important than the players feelings at the end of the day.

Ok so if he's cleared then play him.  I just don't care what ZT thinks, really.  

(07-12-2021, 04:11 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Pretty simple question, do you want to see Joe Burrow play in the preseason?  It could be for only for a series or two, only for a single game, or multiple games.  Or would you prefer he doesn't play at all?

I suppose, since I'm asking, i should answer my own question.  I'm hoping they don't play him.  Even if he's healthy enough, I'd prefer he doesn't see any in-game action until the start of the season.

Fwiw, I think preseason can be great for certain things; I think letting guys battle for a roster spot or for a starting position are good examples.  I also think they can be very good for letting rookies get a taste of the NFL and get adjusted to what it's like.  But I don't think  Burrow will benefit from it.  In fact, if I had my way, most guys wouldn't play in the preseason.

I think as far as him getting him confident playing again, that can be accomplished in practice and scrimmages.  They can simulate a lot of things in a contolled environment.  I just think with his recovery timeline lining up so closely to preseason and the start of the regular season, it's better to err on the side of caution.

What says you?

Given that he struggled out of the gate against SD last year, I think he should play if cleared.  

(07-13-2021, 11:51 AM)TJ528 Wrote: Wes, normally you and I agree and pretty much think along the same lines. 

However, I think Burrow needs to play at least in the 2nd or 3 game of the season.  

He needs to go against defense he doesn't see in practice every day.  He needs to trust he isnt going to get injured if he gets hit or hit low again. 

If the Bengals hold him out and allow him to get accustomed to the game in practice and scrimmage there is NO WAY IN HELL that Zac Taylor is going to let his defense ever come within 3 foot of Burrow. 

Burrow needs to get hit.  He needs live action.  He needs to play against a "real" defense and not something Lou's drawn up lol

However, I do not believe the Bengals will allow Burrow to play in the pre-season.  The soonest you'll see him is Week 1 of the NFL season. 

Fwiw, I am not a fan of the preseason at all.  It could be that I'm permanently scarred from Kijana Carter, but I just don't think it does that much for a lot of the players.  If I had my way, I wouldn't let 75% of the starters even see the field in preseason.  I'd rather sacrifice them possibly having to shake off the rust for a few plays in Week 1 then risk a terrible injury in completely meaningless game that could potentially derail the entire season.  And that goes for all types of players, not just guys who are coming off knee injuries.

So, that plays into it a lot for me with Joe.  So when you add in his recovery time being so close I'd prefer to be safe.  If they want him to take some hits I think they can expose him to that in practices and intrasquad scrimmages.  And I think in a controlled environment they can simulate a lot of things (ex: pocket collapsing, guys bearing down on him, etc.)

I often look to college football (or even high school) as an example of not needing exhibition games. That's what scrimmages are for  Sure, some teams open up with some cupcakes but there's always a few really good ranked games to open the season. And it's not like they don't have guys coming off injury or who haven't played yet.  I just don't see why NFL guys need exhibitions to get ready.  It's alway seemed like a money grab to me, just to throw on two extra home games to ticket packages and to make a little bit extra TV revenue.

So that's kind of where I'm coming from.  It's not just Joe coming off an injury, it's that I hate the preseason in general.  But when you combine the two (serious injury + preseason) I just don't think it's worth it.  But I do get the other side too, that's why I thought it would make a good thread.  

(07-13-2021, 12:53 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Fwiw, I am not a fan of the preseason at all.  It could be that I'm permanently scarred from Kijana Carter, but I just don't think it does that much for a lot of the players.  If I had my way, I wouldn't let 75% of the starters even see the field in preseason.  I'd rather sacrifice them possibly having to shake off the rust for a few plays in Week 1 then risk a terrible injury in completely meaningless game that could potentially derail the entire season.  And that goes for all types of players, not just guys who are coming off knee injuries.

So, that plays into it a lot for me with Joe.  So when you add in his recovery time being so close I'd prefer to be safe.  If they want him to take some hits I think they can expose him to that in practices and intrasquad scrimmages.  And I think in a controlled environment they can simulate a lot of things (ex: pocket collapsing, guys bearing down on him, etc.)

I often look to college football (or even high school) as an example of not needing exhibition games. That's what scrimmages are for  Sure, some teams open up with some cupcakes but there's always a few really good ranked games to open the season. And it's not like they don't have guys coming off injury or who haven't played yet.  I just don't see why NFL guys need exhibitions to get ready.  It's alway seemed like a money grab to me, just to throw on two extra home games to ticket packages and to make a little bit extra TV revenue.

So that's kind of where I'm coming from.  It's not just Joe coming off an injury, it's that I hate the preseason in general.  But when you combine the two (serious injury + preseason) I just don't think it's worth it.  But I do get the other side too, that's why I thought it would make a good thread.  

i love the preseason personally as it lets some of these guys that might never have a shot show what they can do and sometimes it works out for them.,   If vets didn't have to compete to hold off the new waive of players every year it would probably lead to complacency. and poor play  I could see some big time stars not needing preseason but they generally want it to get going.  and its hard to get any sort of feel for how things are working in practice against your own guys or in preseason if you dont ever play your main guys.


We have all seen time and time again that draft status does not equate to playing ability in the NFL  which is why preseason is very important.  its a lot for the coaches building their roster too.  

(07-12-2021, 06:10 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Yes.

Otherwise you're throwing Burrow into Week 1 cold after 10 months of not playing.

Pretty much this.

Plus slinging the ball in 7-on-7 is a whole different monster than game speed play, even with the vanilla ass defense teams play in preseason.

(07-13-2021, 12:53 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Fwiw, I am not a fan of the preseason at all.  It could be that I'm permanently scarred from Kijana Carter, but I just don't think it does that much for a lot of the players.  If I had my way, I wouldn't let 75% of the starters even see the field in preseason.  I'd rather sacrifice them possibly having to shake off the rust for a few plays in Week 1 then risk a terrible injury in completely meaningless game that could potentially derail the entire season.  And that goes for all types of players, not just guys who are coming off knee injuries.

So, that plays into it a lot for me with Joe.  So when you add in his recovery time being so close I'd prefer to be safe.  If they want him to take some hits I think they can expose him to that in practices and intrasquad scrimmages.  And I think in a controlled environment they can simulate a lot of things (ex: pocket collapsing, guys bearing down on him, etc.)

I often look to college football (or even high school) as an example of not needing exhibition games. That's what scrimmages are for  Sure, some teams open up with some cupcakes but there's always a few really good ranked games to open the season. And it's not like they don't have guys coming off injury or who haven't played yet.  I just don't see why NFL guys need exhibitions to get ready.  It's alway seemed like a money grab to me, just to throw on two extra home games to ticket packages and to make a little bit extra TV revenue.

So that's kind of where I'm coming from.  It's not just Joe coming off an injury, it's that I hate the preseason in general.  But when you combine the two (serious injury + preseason) I just don't think it's worth it.  But I do get the other side too, that's why I thought it would make a good thread.  

Trust me, i dislike preseason football because it's boring.  You never see a playbook. 

You hardly ever see the intensity of a regular season game. 

I agree that I like seeing UDFA make teams becasue they come in with nothing guaranteed and bust their ass and a lot of times make the team.  


If you look at Marvins regime, there were multiple UDFA's on those teams.  Some great leaders Vinny Ray, Burfect, Kyle Cook, Erickson, Trey Hopkins,  Kaesviharn, ect. 

from 2019 class of Undrafted Free Agents who made a name for themselves?  Stanley Morgan maybe?   How about the 2020 Undrafted Free Agents?  Again, looking at the 10 UDFA's we signed in 2020 maybe 1 eventually makes an impact?  Washington (WR). 

So lets look at 2021 UDFA class, The Bengals actally have a good UDFA class for the first time in Zac Taylor's career as a HC. 

Pooka Williams
Drue Chrisman
Riley Lees
Darius Hodges

Those are the only 4 who i think have a chance at making this team. 

You develop depth by hitting on your UDFA's something this team has truly sucked at since Marvin left. 

**Sorry I got on a bit of a tangent talking about UDFA's and the only reason I enjoy the pre-season*** 

I do get a bit nervous about this staff and how they handle players in preseason. Rodney Anderson or whatever his name was was a sad case where they ran the kid too much and he broke. Might have been inevitable but I felt they didn’t handle that situation properly. That’s someone they could’ve kept on the shelf for a season IMO.

I think it depends on where he is at practice at each game week. Is he going 11 on 11 live in drills? I think if he can he should play at least a quarter or two just to get into the rhythm before season open.

Do the Bengals have any joint practices schedule with another team this year?

(07-13-2021, 12:53 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: Fwiw, I am not a fan of the preseason at all.  It could be that I'm permanently scarred from Kijana Carter, but I just don't think it does that much for a lot of the players.  If I had my way, I wouldn't let 75% of the starters even see the field in preseason.  I'd rather sacrifice them possibly having to shake off the rust for a few plays in Week 1 then risk a terrible injury in completely meaningless game that could potentially derail the entire season.  And that goes for all types of players, not just guys who are coming off knee injuries.

So, that plays into it a lot for me with Joe.  So when you add in his recovery time being so close I'd prefer to be safe.  If they want him to take some hits I think they can expose him to that in practices and intrasquad scrimmages.  And I think in a controlled environment they can simulate a lot of things (ex: pocket collapsing, guys bearing down on him, etc.)

I often look to college football (or even high school) as an example of not needing exhibition games. That's what scrimmages are for  Sure, some teams open up with some cupcakes but there's always a few really good ranked games to open the season. And it's not like they don't have guys coming off injury or who haven't played yet.  I just don't see why NFL guys need exhibitions to get ready.  It's alway seemed like a money grab to me, just to throw on two extra home games to ticket packages and to make a little bit extra TV revenue.

So that's kind of where I'm coming from.  It's not just Joe coming off an injury, it's that I hate the preseason in general.  But when you combine the two (serious injury + preseason) I just don't think it's worth it.  But I do get the other side too, that's why I thought it would make a good thread.  

I kind of agree with you. Healthy experienced veterans should not need to play unless they have new coaches or a new system. The fact that preseason tickets cost the same as regulat season is a scam.

But preseason games can be very important for young players still learning the game or guys coming back from injuries who have never been at risk of getting hit in practice.

I don't think anyone wants to see him play a lot but he really needs to face a few snaps under fire before the regular season.

If Burrow doesn't play in the pre season this year and every year after he's a vet who doesn't need the preseason, he could be the only NFL player to never play in the preseason ever...or something.

(07-13-2021, 03:09 PM)plantmanky Wrote: I think it depends on where he is at practice at each game week.  Is he going 11 on 11 live in drills?  I think if he can he should play at least a quarter or two just to get into the rhythm before season open.  

Do the Bengals have any joint practices schedule with another team this  year?

There are no joint practices this year.  

I don't see a hell of a lot of difference if he gets seriously injured in the last preseason game or the first quarter of the first game.. It's not as if 16 3/4 games are going to be much different from missing all 17 games.. If he's gonna get hurt it's gonna happen regardless of which game it happens in..Preseason or the first few games? We're still screwed.. It's like arguing about dying in your driveway or getting hit the second you pull out of your driveway. Is anyone really going to notice the difference?

Yes, he needs a series or two in each game. It's football, you can't play scared, because that increases your chance of injury. He'll need to get out there and get at it. And I'm quite sure he is chomping at the bit himself.

He needs to play a couple series. Look.we are starting
New pieces on the oline. This oline needs to mesh and Joe needs
To face a live defense other than his own.

(07-14-2021, 11:19 AM)impactplaya Wrote: He needs to play a couple series. Look.we are starting
New pieces on the oline. This oline needs to mesh and Joe needs
To face a live defense other than his own.

Hey Impact, I was made aware that the OL and new players on defense will mesh and gel in training camp, and mini camp and the games really don't matter for gelling.  

Anyway yes, he needs to face a defense that's allowed to him and not a defense called by Lou. 

(07-13-2021, 09:01 AM)fredtoast Wrote: He knows he can't get hit in practice.  He needs real game reps.



Dalton has nothing to do with this.  I have said MULTIPLE times that Burrow has more upside than Dalton and should be a better QB.

The fact that you fall over backwards to make excuses for Burrow, yet shat on Dalton when he had better seasons than Joe did last year is a joke.  

This time last year you were not concerned about the O-line because Burrow was not a "statue in the pocket like Andy Dalton".  Also WRs were not as important because Burrow could "throw them open", but now the fact that he only had two 900 yard receivers is an excuse for finishing in the bottom third of the league in passer rating.  Finally you are talking about how "good" Burrow looked against the Colts when you would shit on Dalton for posting a 78 passer rating in a loss.

I like Burrow very much as our QB of the future.  He was the #1 overall pick for a reason.  He has the potential to be much better than Dalton was.  But I don't to play "make believe" about how good he was last year because I am not embarrassed about predicting that he would play so much better than Dalton did.

The reason Burrow needs snaps in preseason is that he is still developing as a QB and needs all the chances he can to improve before the season starts.  Pointing to how good he was last year without preseason play is silly when he finished ranked 24th in the league.

You're comparing performances of a veteran QB who, for the majority of his career, had one of the most talented rosters in the NFL and a veteran HC to Joe Burrow who, as a rookie, didn't even get an offseason program and had one of the worst rosters in the NFL.

You struggle with context and critical thought, Fred. It's your achilles heel in any discussion.

(07-15-2021, 12:36 AM)PDub80 Wrote: You're comparing performances of a veteran QB who, for the majority of his career, had one of the most talented rosters in the NFL and a veteran HC to Joe Burrow who, as a rookie, didn't even get an offseason program and had one of the worst rosters in the NFL.

You struggle with context and critical thought, Fred. It's your achilles heel in any discussion.

2011 had a lockout, the Bengals had a new OC, were predicted to go 0-16, had a rookie 2nd round pick QB, and their best WR with at least 1 NFL reception heading into the season was Jerome Simpson.

(07-12-2021, 05:35 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I rarely agree with Murdock, but he hit the nail on the nail on the head here.  Burrow has never returned from a serious injury before.

(07-15-2021, 01:25 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: 2011 had a lockout, the Bengals had a new OC, were predicted to go 0-16, had a rookie 2nd round pick QB, and their best WR with at least 1 NFL reception heading into the season was Jerome Simpson.

- In 2011, the only game that was canceled was the HOF Game. Training camp, preseason, etc still went ahead as planned. The lockout was done by end of July.

- Also, I have never been hard on rookie Dalton. Not even 2nd year Dalton. What I said in that post was in reference to Fred stating I would have been hard on Dalton for a similar performance that Burrow had against the Colts.

^ My point back was YES, but Dalton was in a different situation for most of his career. I wouldn't have been hard on AD for something like that in his 1st or 2nd year. That's why I brought up context. This stuff doesn't happen in a vaccum.

(07-12-2021, 05:37 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The Bengals should be improved this year, but we won't be close to good enough to win any game wasting a half getting our QB practice reps.  He has to be confident and ready to go from the very first snap.

To me the preseason is just another practice, only against another team.  Teams don't go full speed and these days many don't even play their best players.  Other than simulating game conditions I doubt he'd get anything different than he's getting in practice against his own team, other than the defense coming after him as he's not protected with the orange jersey.

I see both sides of this but think the risks far outweigh the benefits.