(08-14-2021, 05:27 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Top half of the starters in the league (26th).  Same time Iloka was the 17th highest paid.

Big enough to prove Mike Brown values safeties.

Enough to pay Bates 15 mil per year? I hope so.

(08-14-2021, 05:27 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Top half of the starters in the league (26th).  Same time Iloka was the 17th highest paid.

Big enough to prove Mike Brown values safeties.

You said he got a "big contract" and that is what I took exception to.  If you're telling me that Shawn Williams ranking 26th in pay among safeties in 2016 is proof of this then we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

Again, 4 years 20 million dollars is not a big contract for saftety.  Not now, and not then.  That's average starter money for guys beyond their rookie deal.

(08-14-2021, 05:32 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: You said he got a "big contract" and that is what I took exception to.  If you're telling me that Shawn Williams ranking 26th in pay among safeties in 2016 is proof of this then we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

Again, 4 years 20 million dollars is not a big contract for saftety.  Not now, and not then.  That's average starter money for guys beyond their rookie deal.

Even though Williams was the #2 paid safety on the team he was still in the top half of the league among starting Safeties.

So it was plenty big enough to show that Mike Brown values safeties.

"Big" is a subjective term, and I am not getting into another semantic argument with a guy who uses the term "bum" to describe half of the starters in the NFL.  To me having our #2 paid safety in the top half of the league in salary it is "big enough" to show that Mike Brown values safeties.

(08-14-2021, 06:22 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Even though Williams was the #2 paid safety on the team he was still in the top half of the league among starting Safeties.

So it was plenty big enough to show that Mike Brown values safeties.

"Big" is a subjective term, and I am not getting into another semantic argument with a guy who uses the term "bum" to describe half of the starters in the NFL.  To me having our #2 paid safety in the top half of the league in salary it is "big enough" to show that Mike Brown values safeties.

It doesn't seem like you are able to keep straight who it is you're quoting.  I never said anything about Mike Brown valuing safties; that was someone else.  Again, for the 3rd time now, my argument was that was not a big contract.  If you'd like to have a conversation about how much Mike values safties I would suggest quoting the person who introduced that conversation.

You can say it's subjective all you'd like; no one with any knowledge of NFL contracts would say a 4 year 20 million dollar, with only 4 million in guarantees is a big contract.  You can keep fighting me on that all you want; you will continue to look silly. 

(08-14-2021, 03:52 PM)fredtoast Wrote: What is this based on?

Bengals gave Shawn Williams a big contract.  Over $5 million a year way back in 2016.

Bates contract will be mega compared to SW.  I guess I do not have concrete source for this claim, but I have felt since last draft that the Bengals may not pay Bates because of the position he plays.  From what I understand, Mike Brown values position players like QB, RB, WR, and CB.  Not really safety or OL.  I think what they paid DT Akins was huge step for this organization.  I hope I am wrong here.  Bates has effusive personality.  But knowing this organization they will low ball and piss off Bates.  Probably franchise him.  then sign him.  

Safeties are to defense what interior line is to offense, as far as who Mike is willing to pay.

He just doesn't value certain positions.

(08-14-2021, 07:17 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: It doesn't seem like you are able to keep straight who it is you're quoting.  I never said anything about Mike Brown valuing safties; that was someone else. 

Exactly.  You have to understand what I was talking about in order to understand what I meant by "big".  Instead you just jumped in the middle of a conversation and tried to take it in a different direction.

The discussion I was having was about Mike Brown's value of safeties.  The fact that Shawn Williams salary was second among safeties on the team but still in the top half of all starting safeties in the league shows that it was big enough to prove Mike Brown values safeties.

(08-14-2021, 07:44 PM)psychdoctor Wrote:   From what I understand, Mike Brown values position players like QB, RB, WR, and CB.  Not really safety or OL. 

You understand wrong.  Mike Brown made Levi Jones and Willie Anderson the highest paid pair of OTs in the entire league.

(08-14-2021, 07:44 PM)psychdoctor Wrote:  But knowing this organization they will low ball and piss off Bates.  Probably franchise him.  then sign him.  

Apparently you don't "know" this franchise because they have spent tons of money re-signing their own top players.  Here is a list of players who all got big second and even third contracts from the Bengals without being franchised.

Carson Palmer
Chad Johnson
TJ Houshmendzedah
Levi Jones
Willie Anderson
Rich Braham
Bobbie Williams
Andrew Whitworth
Clint Boling
Andy Dalton
AJ Green 
Vontaze Burfict
Geno Atkins
Carlos Dunlap
Leon Hall
Brian Simmons
Robert Geathers
Domata Peko
Cedric Benson
Tyler Eifert
Giovani Bernard
Dre Kirkpatrick
Adam Jones
Reggie Nelson
Shawn Williams
George Iloka
Joe Mixon
Sam Hubbard

Well…

https://www.si.com/nfl/bengals/gm-report/nfl-insider-believes-jessie-bates-will-play-out-2021-season-without-a-new-contract

(08-25-2021, 07:01 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Well…

https://www.si.com/nfl/bengals/gm-report/nfl-insider-believes-jessie-bates-will-play-out-2021-season-without-a-new-contract

Speculation..... I think they sign him soon... See how that works?

(08-25-2021, 07:08 PM)Tony Wrote: Speculation..... I think they sign him soon... See how that works?

Well, I for one put more stock into what an NFL Insider speculates than I do Tony from The Bengals Board.

See how that works?

It's still speculation. It's not like Bates or the Bengals told this dude their intentions...

(08-25-2021, 07:24 PM)Tony Wrote: It's still speculation. It's not like Bates or the Bengals told this dude their intentions...

Well, no shit. It’s still disappointing that it’s the only bit of Bates contract talk we’re currently seeing out there though. If I saw speculation that a deal was close to getting done I would have posted that, too.

Tag em and bag em

From what Bates said, all signs point to no extension. I really think the Bengals are over-thinking this. The cap will go up next year with the extra regular season game revenue. Sign him now while you can afford him. Next year his value will be higher yet, and they definitely won't be re-signing him
(because of the "safeties don't garner top money" BS). This is all a case of the Bengals over-thinking the situation--as they did with Big Whit. A lot of the best defenses over the past ten years had a great safety (Vikings safeties, Ravens, Steelers, Seattle, etc. etc.). They can find good starters at CB like they did this year. Spend on a legit safety and a legit pass rush.

(08-25-2021, 08:47 PM)Bengalstripes9 Wrote: From what Bates said, all signs point to no extension. I really think the Bengals are over-thinking this. The cap will go up next year with the extra regular season game revenue. Sign him now while you can afford him. Next year his value will be higher yet, and they definitely won't be re-signing him
(because of the "safeties don't garner top money" BS). This is all a case of the Bengals over-thinking the situation--as they did with Big Whit. A lot of the best defenses over the past ten years had a great safety (Vikings safeties, Ravens, Steelers, Seattle, etc. etc.). They can find good starters at CB like they did this year. Spend on a legit safety and a legit pass rush.

I think you’re under thinking this. They can franchise tag him and who else are we really saving that tag for? Let him play this year. If he does great, strike up a deal, If not, franchise him for another year. If he has some horrific injury or performs significantly worse this season then you’ve saved yourself a headache.

(08-25-2021, 09:37 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: I think you’re under thinking this. They can franchise tag him and who else are we really saving that tag for? Let him play this year. If he does great, strike up a deal, If not, franchise him for another year. If he has some horrific injury or performs significantly worse this season then you’ve saved yourself a headache.

How often do players that get tagged actually end up signing long term deals though?

(08-25-2021, 09:43 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: How often do players that get tagged actually end up signing long term deals though?

Not sure. So you think if the Bengals tag Bates and then offer him a highest paid safety contract the following year he is going to turn it down because he got his feelings hurt?

(08-25-2021, 09:44 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: Not sure. So you think if the Bengals tag Bates and then offer him a highest paid safety contract the following year he is going to turn it down because he got his feelings hurt?

I seriously doubt they’ll offer to make him the top paid safety in the league. Especially since it sounds like they’re currently pretty far apart.

And yeah, I don’t think guys like getting tagged. I could see him wanting to move on if that happens.

(08-25-2021, 09:44 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: Not sure. So you think if the Bengals tag Bates and then offer him a highest paid safety contract the following year he is going to turn it down because he got his feelings hurt?

What I'm saying is if they don't want to pay him now, they never will. They have the cash to right now, and nobody else to resign. Next year they will be getting closer to having to sign Burrow and others long-term--and Bate's value will be up higher. Now is the time, as he's only going to be more costly if they wait. Seeing as they're hesitant to pay safeties, I just don't see it happening if it doesn't happen this year.