(09-21-2021, 04:09 PM)jj22 Wrote: That's the player not the position. 

I wouldn't consider it the MAIN component of either..... 

If you want to be a 3down back in this league you better be able to pass block.  Same goes for a inline TE you better be able to block.

Folks want to trot out PFF grades and drop the mic. Why can't we consider ESPN's analytics?
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/32176833/2021-nfl-pass-rushing-run-stopping-blocking-leaderboard-win-rate-rankings

It has Riley as a Top 3 in pass blocking

Has the oline at #7 in pass blocking

Has the Oline at #2 in run blocking

(09-21-2021, 05:11 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Because they were not the main problem last year.

I now this will shock you, but some people actually look at the numbers instead of just pretending their opinion is reality.

Gio was ranked as one of the best blocking RBs in the league last year.  Fans are not just making that up.  It is true.  

At least 3 of the 5 sacks allowed against the Bears were on the linemen. Namely, Jonah, Reiff and XSF.

(09-21-2021, 02:26 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But then no one could keep squealing about us passing on Sewell.  That is what this is still about.  Jonah has played well at LT with no proof that he would be good at OG.  So the only real logical fix would be to have a better Guard instead of getting another tackle and moving Jonah.

I'm not going to lie. I watched the kid last night and he blocks folks effortlessly it appears. I'd love to have him, but his being good (2 games in) should not be used to diminish Jonah's performance. We've played 2 teams with some of the best edge rushers in the NFL and fared good on the exterior. The interior and blocking assignments are where we are getting killed.  

(09-21-2021, 05:25 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I'm not going to lie. I watched the kid last night and he blocks folks effortlessly it appears. I'd love to have him, but his being good (2 games in) should not be used to diminish Jonah's performance. We've played 2 teams with some of the best edge rushers in the NFL and fared good on the exterior. The interior and blocking assignments are where we are getting killed.  

The Sewell people wanted to kick Jonah (or Reiff) inside, which should've helped the interior. Not trying to keep that argument going. I think Chase has looked great.

(09-21-2021, 05:17 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Folks want to trot out PFF grades and drop the mic. Why can't we consider ESPN's analytics?
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/32176833/2021-nfl-pass-rushing-run-stopping-blocking-leaderboard-win-rate-rankings

It has Riley as a Top 3 in pass blocking

Has the oline at #7 in pass blocking

Has the Oline at #2 in run blocking

Because it doesn't support "the narrative"....

(09-21-2021, 05:17 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Folks want to trot out PFF grades and drop the mic. Why can't we consider ESPN's analytics?
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/32176833/2021-nfl-pass-rushing-run-stopping-blocking-leaderboard-win-rate-rankings

It has Riley as a Top 3 in pass blocking

Has the oline at #7 in pass blocking

Has the Oline at #2 in run blocking

This is a combination of both weeks not a just week 2 numbers which is what the other grades are from.

Also, while it has the Bengals 7th in pass blocking, it shows a 64% win rate, which isn't exactly encouraging since Reiff alone accounted for 95%. That would mean there is a lot of not winning happening to drag that 95 down to a 64.


It also leans more to the conversation had pre-season that got myself and others hammered for not knowing football in that this team should not be in empty sets and needs to run the ball more as the 2nd graded run blocking line and that dropping back to pass 40 plus times a game wasn't going to be a success. 

(09-21-2021, 03:42 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: So.... just going to leave this here

The offensive line was largely a disaster across the board. The overall grades for the starters:


Jonah Williams: 45.2
Quinton Spain: 48.5
Trey Hopkins: 64.8
Xavier Sua-Filo:  41.7
Riley Reiff: 58.4

That isn't all the fault of TE's and RB's. The "franchise" LT barely beats out XSF who everyone agrees was the worst player on the field at Chicago.

https://bengalswire.usatoday.com/2021/09/20/bengals-pro-football-focus-grades-offensive-line-week-2/


Quinton Spain and center Trey Hopkins were the only two linemen who didn’t allow a sack. In fact, Spain didn't allow anyone to get to Burrow, giving him a pass-blocking efficiency of 100.0.

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-week-2-game-recap-chicago-bears-20-cincinnati-bengals-17

I really think Spain was responsible for Jonah's sack maybe I'm wrong I posted the highlights and the sack in question is at the 1:50 mark. Responsible or not he was getting handled on the play.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IUlwPvkswvc

(09-21-2021, 05:38 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: I really think Spain was responsible for Jonah's sack maybe I'm wrong I posted the highlights and the sack in question is at the 1:50 mark. Responsible or not he was getting handled on the play.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IUlwPvkswvc

It's possible.

It's not my grading system. I default to the people who get paid to look at the tape and have more knowledge on the topic. I know there are people here who will fancy themselves to know more then PFF but those guys get paid to do it, and none of us do.

(09-21-2021, 01:58 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: He said "imagine if you had a tackle so you could push Jonah to guard".

That would improve the interior o-line, so I think Booger agrees with you.

Ahh yea, I guess I didn't read it clearly enough. Still kind of a dumb statement though. Imagine we had a good center, left guard, or right guard. Then he could stay at LT. Why would we want him to switch positions when he's been playing fine? 

When he said he's getting killed I interpreted it as Williams not Burrow. 

(09-21-2021, 04:33 PM)jj22 Wrote: Oh I'm not saying they don't help out. What I am saying is no team or their fans blame such bad pass pro grades and their qb getting killed on the RB and TE. They should be complimentary pieces to pass protection. Not the reason the QB is getting killed. This full blown excuse didn't happen last year. Why? Mixon and Sample never missed a block?

So why was folks wanting Polack back and Turner gone? That's what needs to be explained to me. Sounds like we needed a new RB and TE coach. I'm not here for the excuses because certain people don't want to blame the line out of pride.

I'll say it if no one else will. The Oline is still TRASH.

Holy shit…

This actually shows up why PFF is generally not good for rating linemen - their system really has no account taken of formation, play selection, what protection was called or other such factors. Much as I dislike ESPN for the abomination known as QBR, their analytics concept on rating linemen is actually more straightforward as it looks at run and pass blocking/rushing "wins". It's still fuzzy but not as bad as the PFF ratings.

(09-21-2021, 02:33 PM)Sled21 Wrote: But if we had a better guard, the TE's and RB's would still be missing blocks, right? They just want to squeal to be squealing..... there's only one way to make them see......

Stanley Kubrick or not, i'd have a hard time letting someone put those in my eyes for a freaking movie scene. 

(09-21-2021, 06:13 PM)TheFan Wrote: Ahh yea, I guess I didn't read it clearly enough. Still kind of a dumb statement though. Imagine we had a good center, left guard, or right guard. Then he could stay at LT. Why would we want him to switch positions when he's been playing fine? 

When he said he's getting killed I interpreted it as Williams not Burrow. 

Well he could've focused on not doing more in free agency, but I think when we didn't do more, many people were expecting Sewell to be the pick...so that's naturally what the talking heads will default to when we start giving up mass sacks and pressures.
_______________

Btw, I've always loved how PFF has been used sooooo much on these boards through the years, but when people don't like what it says, it's "PFF can't be trusted...let's use ESPN or my unbiased eyeballs"...or just resort to calling people haters.

I'm not even mad. It's amusing. I think I've done it too before.

(09-21-2021, 01:56 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Booger doesn't seem to understand that our line has been good and all the sacks are on RBs, TEs and Burrow himself. If this really is the case, it doesn't matter who we put on the line.

If that's the case, then moving on from Gio Bernard was perhaps the biggest mistake that the team could have made, when it comes to protecting the franchise QB.  

It all goes back to the offseason and the front office placing minimal value on the interior line.

In today's NFL, the OGs are just as important, if not more important, than the OTs. We've seen that for how many years now. The quickest pressure is the pressure up the middle and we have been horrible at it the last 5 years.

Fix the middle, fix the issue. Until management realizes that, it's the same crap over and over.

(09-21-2021, 01:23 PM)TJ528 Wrote: In case you haven't seen it, Booger McFarland just tweeted this out:


Booger
@ESPNBooger
·
28m
Imagine if u had a tackle and u could put Jonah at guard ? U can build an offensive line with good players. Plenty of tackles have played guard.  Put the best 5 on the field.  Bottom line the oline isn’t great and the kid is getting killed
Quote Tweet
Ben Baby
@Ben_Baby
· 34m
Bengals RT Riley Reiff currently tied for third in the league in Pass Block Win Rate as a tackle LT Jonah Williams is 17th. (ESPN/NFL Next Gen)

Williams is 17th in the league in pass blocking.
He is fine to leave outside.
They need help inside.
That's the problem.

(09-21-2021, 07:32 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: It all goes back to the offseason and the front office placing minimal value on the interior line.  

In today's NFL, the OGs are just as important, if not more important, than the OTs.  We've seen that for how many years now.  The quickest pressure is the pressure up the middle and we have been horrible at it the last 5 years.

Fix the middle, fix the issue.  Until management realizes that, it's the same crap over and over.

Which is actually kind of amazing that they don't place value on that when they went out and spent so much on Reader and previously had Geno and then signed Larry Ogunjobi. They seem to understand the value of creating inside pressure but don't grasp the concept of preventing inside pressure.

It's actually pretty amazing.

(09-21-2021, 05:16 PM)J24 Wrote: If you want to be a 3down back in this league you better be able to pass block.  Same goes for a inline TE you better be able to block.

Our run game was better with a 6th Olinemen if that's the philosophy. 3 down backs are a thing of the past....

(09-21-2021, 07:27 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: If that's the case, then moving on from Gio Bernard was perhaps the biggest mistake that the team could have made, when it comes to protecting the franchise QB.  

I was surprised by it.  It may have been a money issue, but I think we're seeing that he had a lot more value than a lot of people realized.  I was in no hurry to see him gone.