(09-25-2021, 01:06 AM)J24 Wrote: Mike Thomas is a solid #4 and Tate is a pretty good WR as well. Another deep threat would be nice to have especially over Irwin or Taylor. I think depth is fine at Wr but not great.

I agree with this and would like to see some of the other receivers get some more targets. I know Mike Thomas had some week 1 but he could've scored if him and Burrow are on the same page a little better. Also Tate thrives in those no separation situations. I'm not saying our top 3 shouldn't be getting the bulk of targets. I just noticed from week 1 to 2 we only had 7 different people targeted each game and the only difference was evans got a target instead of thomas week 2.

Many teams don’t have 3 WR’s as good as ours (maybe 5 league wide) and we are complaining about our 4th? Auden Tate is a high end 4, I think better than that but I don’t want to hijack this thread.

(09-24-2021, 11:08 PM)Tlawsonmariat82 Wrote: I said this during the draft, throughout training and for the final roster cut downs..Anthony swartz 4.25 40 drafted by Cleveland in the 4th round could've been taking by us..

Marquez Stevenson 4.45 40 drafted by the bills in the 6th round could've been taking by us;kawaan baker 4.41 40 drafted in 7th round by the saints could've also been considered..bottom line is the receiving depth is absolutely unacceptable, we have a bunch of pure possession guys whose best chance is contested catching..

Why didn't we take another speed guy to be a developmental wr?? It scares me if any of our top 3 goes down..

Seems like if this is what we are worried about, then we are in pretty good shape.  

I actually like the receiving depth a lot, although I wish there was a more electric guy to rotate outside and return kicks over someone like Mike Thomas.  

(09-24-2021, 11:08 PM)Tlawsonmariat82 Wrote: I said this during the draft, throughout training and for the final roster cut downs..Anthony swartz 4.25 40 drafted by Cleveland in the 4th round could've been taking by us..

Marquez Stevenson 4.45 40 drafted by the bills in the 6th round could've been taking by us;kawaan baker 4.41 40 drafted in 7th round by the saints could've also been considered..bottom line is the receiving depth is absolutely unacceptable, we have a bunch of pure possession guys whose best chance is contested catching..

Why didn't we take another speed guy to be a developmental wr?? It scares me if any of our top 3 goes down..

Yeah I'm not thinking about Thomas and Tate wishing that those guys rather were Kawaan Baker or Marquez Stevenson.

(09-25-2021, 01:19 AM)Whatever Wrote: Throws 20+ yards down field are hard enough to complete without expecting the QB to throw the receiver open.  It's on the receiver to get some separation so the QB has an easier throw.  That throw to Tee was as good as anyone can reasonably expect the QB to make.  

Don't know if the shoulder has been the issue, but Tee is only 1 of 6 on contested catches this year, including 0 for 4 against the Bears.  Chase is 0 for 1 and Boyd is 2 for 2, by comparison.  The other concern is 6 of Tee's 15 targets have been contested compared to 2 of 13 for Boyd and 1 of 11 for Chase.  Tee is struggling to get open and struggling to make contested catches.  It would probably be a good idea to dial back his target share some when he gets healthy.

I have no idea how they define "contested catches", but the QB is responsible for the pass. So maybe the throws have not been as good on Tate's 6 "contested" targets.  Or maybe the target would not even be "contested" if it was not over or under thrown.  And if a defender can get a hand on the ball and knock it away yiu can't blame that on the receiver.


I like advanced statistics, but some of them don't really measure what people think they measure.  For example there was a lot of discussion about "separation" in the off season, but when you look at the numbers there was no real correlation between "separation" and production in WRs.  Some scrub WRs had big separation numbers while many of the best had poor separation.

I never expected us to use big free agent money or a high draft pick on a WR this year, but I pretty much guaranteed that we would bring in somebody to compete for the back up WR spots.

This is Thomas's SIXTH year in the NFL and he has 24 receptions with a very poor catch% (53.3) and yards per target (6.2).  And he barely played on special teams.

Morgan is in his 3rd season and on his ten career targets he has 3 receptions (30% catch percentage) for 18 yards (1.8 yds per target).  Those numbers are ridiculous.

Trent Irwin had zero stats last year as a rookie.

Veteran WRs are actually pretty cheap in free agency if you are just looking for depth.  We could probably have replaced any of these guy for $2 million.

(09-24-2021, 11:38 PM)TheFan Wrote: 4th string receiver is what some people are now down to complain about? Of all the things you choose 4th string receiver as your thing?

I mean I get most things have already been covered but listen, we're talking about 4th string. Not 1st string. Not 2nd string. NOT 3rd string. We're talking about 4th string. Not a starter. Not the starters that go out there and die for and play every game like it's their last. Not the starters. We're talking about 4th string, man.

I mean how silly is that. And we're talking about 4th string.We're talking about 4th string, man?

Not a game, practice. We talkin bout practice. .....

(09-24-2021, 11:08 PM)Tlawsonmariat82 Wrote: I said this during the draft, throughout training and for the final roster cut downs..Anthony swartz 4.25 40 drafted by Cleveland in the 4th round could've been taking by us..

Marquez Stevenson 4.45 40 drafted by the bills in the 6th round could've been taking by us;kawaan baker 4.41 40 drafted in 7th round by the saints could've also been considered..bottom line is the receiving depth is absolutely unacceptable, we have a bunch of pure possession guys whose best chance is contested catching..

Why didn't we take another speed guy to be a developmental wr?? It scares me if any of our top 3 goes down..

Im with you here., I was hoping we would get Schwartz and it stings watching him in Cleveland....dude looks like a legit scary deep threat we have been asking for a long long time.  We all know he will likely torch us deep at least once this yr. 
ZT and Co dont seem to put  premium on killer pure speed....
   

(09-25-2021, 01:06 AM)J24 Wrote: Mike Thomas is a solid #4 and Tate is a pretty good WR as well. Another deep threat would be nice to have especially over Irwin or Taylor. I think depth is fine at Wr but not great.

this ^^^^^^^^^^

Go ahead and pull the trigger Mikey:

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/nfl-will-reinstate-josh-gordon-who-could-make-his-return-as-soon-as-week-4-per-report/

Quote:NFL will reinstate Josh Gordon, who could make his return as soon as Week 4, per report

(09-25-2021, 11:53 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I have no idea how they define "contested catches", but the QB is responsible for the pass. So maybe the throws have not been as good on Tate's 6 "contested" targets.  Or maybe the target would not even be "contested" if it was not over or under thrown.  And if a defender can get a hand on the ball and knock it away yiu can't blame that on the receiver.


I like advanced statistics, but some of them don't really measure what people think they measure.  For example there was a lot of discussion about "separation" in the off season, but when you look at the numbers there was no real correlation between "separation" and production in WRs.  Some scrub WRs had big separation numbers while many of the best had poor separation.

I assume you meant Tee instead of Tate.

As stated before, 6 of Tee's 15 targets have been contested compared to 1 of 11 for Chase and 2 of 13 for Boyd.  That strongly indicates that it's an issue with Tee and not Burrow.  Next Gen Stats showed us last year that Tee was struggling to get separation and the thought was that he would polish up his route running this year, but it's not where people hoped it would be yet.

Separation is a factor in a receiver's production, but other things play into it like target volume.  Some are great at making contested catches and can be productive without a lot of separation.  However, Tee is coming down with a very low % of his contested targets, so he doesn't fall into that category.  The main stat with separation I brought up was the teams with QB's making a high % of throws to covered targets don't typically make the playoffs.  We saw why against the Bears.  We had a lost fumble and a pick trying to force feed Tee the ball when he was well covered.  

I'm not saying Tee is a bum, but he's not a WR1 and should not be getting WR1 target share.  Chase should be getting the 7-8 targets per game Tee has been getting and Tee should be seeing 5 or so.  

(09-25-2021, 12:16 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Go ahead and pull the trigger Mikey:

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/nfl-will-reinstate-josh-gordon-who-could-make-his-return-as-soon-as-week-4-per-report/

With the way Zac has been coaching I don't know if this is the right spot for a player with substance abuse issues.  Heck, Zac makes me want to get high just watching the games and I don't even have a history of drug use.  

Okay jokes aside, I really hope Gordon has turned things around this time and learned to overcome his demons.  I know it seems like that is stated almost every year.  But addiction is no joke and wreaks havoc on the lives of those afflicted as well as their family and friends.  So I'm all for someone beating it no matter how many tries it takes.

(09-25-2021, 12:12 PM)kalibengal Wrote: We all know he will likely torch us deep at least once this yr.   

Why do people say things like this?

I feel I am fairly critical of the Bengals when they mess up.  But I can't understand people who make things up in their head to whine about.  Our pass defense is playing very well this year.  We have given up a deep pass.  The only completion of 30+ yards was mostly YAC. 

It is like some people WANT us to fail so they can play the victim card.  Why else would you make a comment like this?

(09-25-2021, 12:50 PM)Whatever Wrote: As stated before, 6 of Tee's 15 targets have been contested compared to 1 of 11 for Chase and 2 of 13 for Boyd.  That strongly indicates that it's an issue with Tee and not Burrow. 

The fact that Tee has more targets indicates that he is getting open more often than Chase or Boyd.

Very few catches involve the WR and DB both getting their hands on the ball and the WR winning the battle.  If a DB can get his hand on the ball the WR almost never makes the catch.  That is why I wonder how they define "contested" targets.  It seems every single back shoulder throw would be "contested" but if thrown properly it is almost impossible to defend.

What is the average catch percentage for WRs on "contested targets"?  Maybe that would give me some more perspective.

(09-25-2021, 12:50 PM)Whatever Wrote: Separation is a factor in a receiver's production, 

Not according to nextgen stats.  Many of the most productive WRs have low separation numbers while many scrub WRs have high sparation number.

I get where the OP is coming from there is almost zero possibility for any kinda WR development on the backend of the Bengals depth chart. The Bengals opted for special teams and below average veteran depth.

Being 100% honest, can ANYONE here name the WR4/5 is on any team other than the Bengals?

Whinging about WR depth after WR4 is silly.

(09-25-2021, 12:50 PM)Whatever Wrote: I assume you meant Tee instead of Tate.

As stated before, 6 of Tee's 15 targets have been contested compared to 1 of 11 for Chase and 2 of 13 for Boyd.  That strongly indicates that it's an issue with Tee and not Burrow.  Next Gen Stats showed us last year that Tee was struggling to get separation and the thought was that he would polish up his route running this year, but it's not where people hoped it would be yet.
Separation is a factor in a receiver's production, but other things play into it like target volume.  Some are great at making contested catches and can be productive without a lot of separation.  However, Tee is coming down with a very low % of his contested targets, so he doesn't fall into that category.  The main stat with separation I brought up was the teams with QB's making a high % of throws to covered targets don't typically make the playoffs.  We saw why against the Bears.  We had a lost fumble and a pick trying to force feed Tee the ball when he was well covered.  I'm not saying Tee is a bum, but he's not a WR1 and should not be getting WR1 target share.  Chase should be getting the 7-8 targets per game Tee has been getting and Tee should be seeing 5 or so.  

A factor that has a value of about 1%. 

In terms of total targets this year, Tee is 38th. Out of those he is;
23rd in separation
8th in smallest amount of cushion at the LoS (this is the biggest argument against separation)
16th in targeted air yards 
But here's where sep and cushion combine to see who is effective...
he's 4th in Average YaC above expectation. xYaC/R 2.2yds. YaC/R 4.3yds. So while he's more tightly blanketed and getting smaller separation numbers, he's exceptionally productive on his targets. 
https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/receiving#targets

He's def a low end #1/top end #2. 
As far as market share, i'd put the # something like this. 
On 34 throws a game, RBs should see 6, TEs should see 4, Chase should see 10, Boyd should see 7 and Tee should see 7. 

(09-25-2021, 12:04 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Trent Irwin had zero stats last year as a rookie.

He had 1 catch for 5 or 16 or something yards, last year.

(09-24-2021, 11:08 PM)Tlawsonmariat82 Wrote: I said this during the draft, throughout training and for the final roster cut downs..Anthony swartz 4.25 40 drafted by Cleveland in the 4th round could've been taking by us..

Marquez Stevenson 4.45 40 drafted by the bills in the 6th round could've been taking by us;kawaan baker 4.41 40 drafted in 7th round by the saints could've also been considered..bottom line is the receiving depth is absolutely unacceptable, we have a bunch of pure possession guys whose best chance is contested catching..

Why didn't we take another speed guy to be a developmental wr?? It scares me if any of our top 3 goes down..

Minor issue compared the lack of OL production.

 

(09-25-2021, 01:27 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The fact that Tee has more targets indicates that he is getting open more often than Chase or Boyd.

Very few catches involve the WR and DB both getting their hands on the ball and the WR winning the battle.  If a DB can get his hand on the ball the WR almost never makes the catch.  That is why I wonder how they define "contested" targets.  It seems every single back shoulder throw would be "contested" but if thrown properly it is almost impossible to defend.

What is the average catch percentage for WRs on "contested targets"?  Maybe that would give me some more perspective.





Not according to nextgen stats.  Many of the most productive WRs have low separation numbers while many scrub WRs have high sparation number.

That's not necessarily true. AJ was literally almost never open last year and he got tons of targets. It's not uncommon for a QB to try forcing the ball in to get someone going. 

That said the sample size, for any statistic so far this year, is only 2 games so we don't really know anything yet.