(11-24-2021, 09:47 AM)fredtoast Wrote: This is BS.

Bengals run defense was WORSE after they benched Dunlap (151.7 yds/g, 5.2 avg) than before (141.8 yds/g, 5.0 avg).

Also Dunlap was not playing for a contract because was signed through the 2021 season.  But do you really think NFL teams are so stupid that they just pay a player based on his sack numbers without watching any film on how he plays?

You are digging yourself a really deep hole, Fred.  So now the entire run defense was at the expense of one position on the defensive line and not because they lost Reader and many others on that line?   Also losing Burrow and an offense that could actually sustain some drives before his injury?  This is pathetic.  

And just how many NFL teams offered more than a 7th round pick for Carlos if he is such a respected star at a premium position?  

(11-24-2021, 09:53 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: You are digging yourself a really deep hole, Fred.  So now the entire run defense was at the expense of one position on the defensive line and not because they lost Reader and many others on that line? 

How am I digging myself a hole when I post stats and all you post is stuff you make up in your head?

I honestly do not remember all these big runs you claim Dunlap gave up.  Please give me some examples.

(11-24-2021, 10:02 AM)fredtoast Wrote: How am I digging myself a hole when I post stats and all you post is stuff you make up in your head?

I honestly do not remember all these big runs you claim Dunlap gave up.  Please give me some examples.

So, it is in my head that an NFL defensive coordinator decided to play someone else over him?  It is in my head that despite being a such a glorious NFL talent at the defensive end position that no team offered more than a 7th round pick for him?  It is also in my head that a year later he is having an even greater reduced role at Seattle than he was here in Cincinnati? 

Don't forget, it was Carlos that decided to have a zoom meeting as some kind of posturing where all he did was eat potato chips, prompting a leader on the team to tell him something to the effect of "suck a turd, los".

I have no problem acknowledging that Carlos was a great defensive end in Cincinnati, but at the end of his career here he was not an impact talent, despite being paid like one.  

(11-24-2021, 09:50 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: For the year, 2020:

Carl Lawson-  68.2% (and you are dead wrong, Lawson was playing around 60% of snaps before the second Cleveland game and then closer to 75% after)

Carlos Dunlap- 26.1%

Amani Bledsoe- 29.43%

Khalid Kareem- 24.1%

Again, he was not replaced by Kareem and Bledsoe, he lost his starting role to Lawson.  

These numbers don't make any sense because you are not comparing the numbers before Carlos was benched with the numbers after.

In the first six games of the year Bledsoe and Kareem averaged a combined 32 snaps per game played.  Over the final 10 games Kareem averaged 25.9 and Bledsoe 29.4.  Lawson's numbers just increased slightly from 41.6 to 47.3.

(11-24-2021, 10:08 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I have no problem acknowledging that Carlos was a great defensive end in Cincinnati, but at the end of his career here he was not an impact talent, despite being paid like one.  

he was still an "impact talent".  His production the second half of the season with Seattle proves this.

Only difference was coaching.

(11-23-2021, 10:51 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Based on his production 90% of the defensive players in the league "half-assed it way to much".




So were George Washington and Martin Luther King.

Fred... Sometimes it's best to know you're right and leave it alone. Sadly some of, if not most of the team's current darlings will leave on shitty terms, and there will be members posting about how they were always lazy, and the Bengals sucked because of them. It's the circle of life.

(11-24-2021, 08:26 AM)fredtoast Wrote: My point by showing his career totals is to prove his consistency and durability.  He was a steady grinder instead of a guy who flashed a big year once or twice and then disappeared. 

It takes some special type of spin to shit on a guy for ranking top ten in the league over a decade.  And, of course it also requires you to just look at one stat like sacks and ignore everything else like tackles, QB hits, and passes defended.



Dunlap was BELOW AVERAGE for a DE in broad jump, long jump, bench press, 3-cone drill, and short shuttle.  He also had a DUI arrest before the bowl game but that had nothing to do with work ethic.

If I do the same exercise with other stats, it's just going to be the same result because there are only a handful of players that played in all the exact same seasons he did.  There are a bunch of guys already in the league when he came in that were better than him that he will beat in that timeframe simply because they retired and did not accrue as many seasons.  Similarly, there are a bunch of guys who came into the league after Dunlap that were better, but didn't accrue as many seasons.  It's literally weighted in Dunlap's favor.

Dunlap was below average for his size in only one combine test.  He was 70th percentile or better in half of them and 98th percentile in 3 of them.  He was a great athlete for a DE his size.  His issues went beyond a DUI.  He had serious work ethic questions.  

(11-24-2021, 10:21 AM)fredtoast Wrote: he was still an "impact talent".  His production the second half of the season with Seattle proves this.

Only difference was coaching.

You mean the same Bengal coaches he had in 2019 when he had arguably the best year of his career

You mean the same Bengals coaches that have Trey Henrickson and Sam Hubbard on pace to have the best seasons of their careers

You mean the same Seattle coaches that current have Carlos averaging 1.5 tackles per game and a sack every 20 games

I know your definition of a "man" includes blaming your shortcomings on someone else, but this is silly. Carlos was having a bad year, the team was having a bad season, and the team tried something different for a game. MLK didn't like it and handled it much like a teenage girl.

Now if these coaches bench Hendrickson for Wyatt Ray this week; then you may have a point; other than that....

(11-24-2021, 10:37 AM)Whatever Wrote: If I do the same exercise with other stats, it's just going to be the same result because there are only a handful of players that played in all the exact same seasons he did.  There are a bunch of guys already in the league when he came in that were better than him that he will beat in that timeframe simply because they retired and did not accrue as many seasons.  Similarly, there are a bunch of guys who came into the league after Dunlap that were better, but didn't accrue as many seasons.  It's literally weighted in Dunlap's favor.

Dunlap was below average for his size in only one combine test.  He was 70th percentile or better in half of them and 98th percentile in 3 of them.  He was a great athlete for a DE his size.  His issues went beyond a DUI.  He had serious work ethic questions.  

It's literally in his scouting report.

That said, Carlos was, and will remain, one of my favorites. However, I'm not just gonna gloss over how he handled his exit. It was Bush League.

The Dunlap debate is so stale, much like his play right before he left.

Who cares about Carlos, we got a new bad dude in town that’s gonna break the Bengals single season sack record this year…

(11-24-2021, 08:45 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: This might spark a lot of "that is a HOF player, what has ZT ever done", but you are absolutely correct.  People lose on the concept of team over individual talent all the time, despite seeing examples of it every day.  Look at OBJ.  He didn't help Cleveland at all.  Do I think he is a massive talent?  Yes.  Would I want him here?  Hell, no.   

Green was never a publicly negative force (to my knowledge) and neither was Geno, but I agree with the essentially new roster and starting fresh.  New leaders have emerged.  

Perhaps the most overlooked thing about this team from a roster standpoint is that Burrow, Mixon, Boyd, Higgins, and Chase are all under contracts that extend at least three more years.  That is a GREAT young nucleus on offense.  

This team is ahead of the so-called schedule and I am loving every minute of it.  

Wait. Who are we talking about "HOF player"?

(11-24-2021, 09:50 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: For the year, 2020:

Carl Lawson-  68.2% (and you are dead wrong, Lawson was playing around 60% of snaps before the second Cleveland game and then closer to 75% after)

Carlos Dunlap- 26.1%

Amani Bledsoe- 29.43%

Khalid Kareem- 24.1%

Again, he was not replaced by Kareem and Bledsoe, he lost his starting role to Lawson.  

Carlos played LDE. Hubbard and Lawson played RDE.

(11-24-2021, 11:51 AM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: The Dunlap debate is so stale, much like his play right before he left.

Who cares about Carlos, we got a new bad dude in town that’s gonna break  the Bengals single season sack record this year…

Yup. I liked Carlos when he was engaged, wreaking havoc. Didn't care too much for the guy right before he left. 

Said this on old board but did not hammer it down because Carlos was a Bengal with tons of potential and I was a fan of drafting him as well.

But my seats were in the front row right on the defensive line end of bench. During the Marvin regime I never saw anybody get yelled at by the coaches even a quarter as much as Carlos. In fact it does not happen that often except with him.

They would be coming at him constantly while throwing a handful of photos in his face and screaming with spit flying out of their mouth so much that I tabbed him with the nickname Dumblap. Of course I was berated for saying so and expect to be again.

Although they played different positions Tank Johnson really mentored him mentally on bench back then and helped calm him down and get him through after the sideline tongue lashings.

Plus think he did have elite talent and that got him through well enough to be very serviceable and at times great even. Yet he never really matured between the ears imo.

To be fair neither have I, so not going to hate on him. Just spilling some eyewitness accounts of what happened on the bench.

(11-24-2021, 10:08 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: So, it is in my head that an NFL defensive coordinator decided to play someone else over him?  It is in my head that despite being a such a glorious NFL talent at the defensive end position that no team offered more than a 7th round pick for him?  It is also in my head that a year later he is having an even greater reduced role at Seattle than he was here in Cincinnati? 

Don't forget, it was Carlos that decided to have a zoom meeting as some kind of posturing where all he did was eat potato chips, prompting a leader on the team to tell him something to the effect of "suck a turd, los".

I have no problem acknowledging that Carlos was a great defensive end in Cincinnati, but at the end of his career here he was not an impact talent, despite being paid like one.  

I wouldn't hang your hat on the fact that old Lou decided to demote Carlos. He has done some very stupid things that no defensive coordinator should do.

(11-24-2021, 11:41 AM)Wyche Wrote: It's literally in his scouting report.

That said, Carlos was, and will remain, one of my favorites. However, I'm not just gonna gloss over how he handled his exit. It was Bush League.

One of his former coaches said that you had to constantly stand on him because the second you didn't, he'd turn left on you.  

He was a good player for a long time for us.  Can't take that away from him.  However the narrative that Fred is trying to spin that he was some high motor grinder is BS.  His exit was, as you said, bush league.  I liked him as a player, but hate the fact that a minority defend the way he conducted himself his final year here.

(11-24-2021, 12:45 PM)Go Cards Wrote: Said this on old board but did not hammer it down because Carlos was a Bengal with tons of potential and I was a fan of drafting him as well.

But my seats were in the front row right on the defensive line end of bench. During the Marvin regime I never saw anybody get yelled at by the coaches even a quarter as much as Carlos. In fact it does not happen that often except with him.

They would be coming at him constantly while throwing a handful of photos in his face and screaming with spit flying out of their mouth so much that I tabbed him with the nickname Dumblap. Of course I was berated for saying so and expect to be again.

Although they played different positions Tank Johnson really mentored him mentally on bench back then and helped calm him down and get him through after the sideline tongue lashings.

Plus think he did have elite talent and that got him through well enough to be very serviceable and at times great even. Yet he never really matured between the ears imo.

To be fair neither have I, so not going to hate on him. Just spilling some eyewitness accounts of what happened on the bench.

I remember seeing Hue Jackson cussing out Chris Henry when I was sitting in the 8th or 9th row. I clearly heard I don't give a f*** come outta Hue's mouth. Not that that happened between them a lot, but it certainly did that day.

(11-24-2021, 11:51 AM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: The Dunlap debate is so stale, much like his play right before he left.

Who cares about Carlos, we got a new bad dude in town that’s gonna break the Bengals single season sack record this year…

I agree with your general premise, but Hendrickson is a one trick pony compared to prime Dunlap... But yeah, bygones and all that.

(11-24-2021, 01:50 PM)jason Wrote: I agree with your general premise, but Hendrickson is a one trick pony compared to prime Dunlap... But yeah, bygones and all that.

It is a very good trick and one of the most valuable in all of football 

(11-24-2021, 01:54 PM)Big_Ern Wrote: It is a very good trick and one of the most valuable in all of football 

I'm definitely not hating on it...