Leaders also have to put up with bullshit on a daily basis and deal with it. Sometimes, leaders stand alone.

(11-22-2015, 01:12 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Leaders don't quit. Leaders are problem solvers and not problems.

Again, you have no idea what was going on when Carson left.  He may have been smart enough to get out of a situation that did not change until he left.

You keep pumping up Whitworth like he was the one who fixed everything, but I have seen plenty of great leaders play for the Bengals who never won anything.  Just because things changed while Whit was here does not mean he was the reason.

Willie Anderson was great leader, but the Bengals shit on him and cut him when he still had a year left on his contract.

(11-22-2015, 01:21 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Again, you have no idea what was going on when Carson left.  He may have been smart enough to get out of a situation that did not change until he left.

You keep pumping up Whitworth like he was the one who fixed everything, but I have seen plenty of great leaders play for the Bengals who never won anything.  Just because things changed while Whit was here does not mean he was the reason.

Willie Anderson was great leader, but the Bengals shit on him and cut him when he still had a year left on his contract.

I don't know, you don't know. You choose to side with CP which is fine, you continue to make false statements bout honoring contracts. The fact is the NFL contracts are iron clad and are honored 100% to what was agreed upon and signed by both parties, if not we would see lawsuit after lawsuit. Are you really an attorney?

As for Whittworth, he stayed and he led so his decisions and leadership were a part of the solution.

I know AD took after a team from CP as a rookie and had more success with that team thus far than CP had. That is a fact. CP quit, that is fact. You say CP is tough as nails, he may be physically, but in my mind he is a mental midget and has poor leadership skills thus why he can't achieve true greatness. His career is not over, but as many years as he has played and to have his record with no playoff wins supports the theory CP is missing something.

My biggest issue with Carson quitting is when he did it. He was supposed to be the leader of a team that was locked out by its owners. He left his team mates holding the bag because of his selfishness. At least little bro Jordan tried to do something.

(11-22-2015, 01:28 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I don't know, you don't know. You choose to side with CP which is fine, you continue to make false statements bout honoring contracts. The fact is the NFL contracts are iron clad and are honored 100% to what was agreed upon and signed by both parties, if not we would see lawsuit after lawsuit. Are you really an attorney?

I never said that NFL owners were not allowed to cut players with years left on their contract.  I never made any false statements.  Can you really read?

(11-22-2015, 12:52 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Well Mike Brown did not make any fan a very wealthy man. 

(11-22-2015, 01:33 PM)bfine32 Wrote: My biggest issue with Carson quitting is when he did it. He was supposed to be the leader of a team that was locked out by its owners. 

Now I am confused.  If Palmer was supposed to be so faithful to Mike Brown because Mike had paid him so well, then shouldn't he also have been faithful to Mike during the lock out and supported the owners over the players?

(11-22-2015, 11:57 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: You can put lipstick on a pig, but still a pig.

Why is so hard for anyone to understand he quit. Whittworth did not quit, he became a part of the solution and not the problem, that is what leaders do.

I find it hilarious that we have 4 or 5 guys publicly demand to leave since the Bengal's inception and some of our fans act like it is the norm when it fact it is a very low percent of our roster.

In the end, Palmer cried like a 3 year old took his bonus money (yes he ripped MB off) and forced a trade. He quit and I have stated this many times. he was wrong. Andy Dalton is on the verge of history winning with Palmer's old team, a guy who was forced to start with a rookie #1 WR, new OC and no training camp due to the strike.

Palmer may have looked like a prophet is the Bengals fell on their face after hos last 4-12 season, but in reality, it appears the major issue was Carson Palmer, once he left, we became a better and more consistent football team. I think that is why Palmer is upset, he thought he knew more than MB and he was wrong and all of the wins since prove it.

I think you picked the wrong post to commence your rant.

Crotch chop Carson is gonna get pummeled today!

We all draw conclusions from the available information. What I saw was Carson get paid a truckload of cash, the Bengals draft talent for the offense, the Bengals sign the free agents he publicly wanted, the Bengals signing his brother, Carson always willing to take the hit but never put his foot down in a leadership role, and only definitively put his foot down when he wanted to leave... If he'd had the same backbone as a leader on the field as he did in leaving, I absolutely believe things would have been very different.

As for Willie, I totally disagree with the notion the Bengals shit on Willie. Willie was physically shot. He was nearing the end of the line, had a foot injury keep him out of the 2007 training camp, hinder his play until an added knee injury put him on IR, and lost his starting job to Whitworth. At the start of 2008, the Bengals said they'd love to have Willie finish out his career with the the Bengals, but that he'd be a backup to Whitworth, and would need to take a pay cut. Willie refused, and the Bengals let him go. He got a lot of money, and the opportunity to limp his body to the finish line with the team that drafted him.

(11-22-2015, 12:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If you can't understand how Palmer felt when he left just ask any of the 95% of the Bengal fans who were cursing Mike Brown after the '10 season and claiming that the franchise would never win anything with him in charge.

All Palmer did was agree with what an overwhelming majority of the fans were saying, yet now those same fans rip him for agreeing with them.. 

Of course fans were displeased after a supposed SB team fell to 4-12 with 10 straight losses. That said, none of us knew that Brat would be canned after the Senior Bowl. None of us knew that AJ Green would be drafted. The problem with Palmer is that he quit while emotions were still running high.

As jaded as the fans were after the season, none of us quit. As bad as things were in 2010, I think most of us knew that a few changes would make the team relevant again. I bet that we'd win 4 games or fewer in 2011, but if Palmer had stayed, that prediction would've been 8-9 wins. I just had very little confidence in a rookie QB. 

(11-22-2015, 02:14 PM)gobobro Wrote:  Carson always willing to take the hit but never put his foot down in a leadership role,

What does this even mean?  I see people make this claim all the time, but they have nothing to back it up.

When Tom Brady yelled at his receivers it was called a sign of "fiery leadership".  When carson yelled a Chad it was called a sign of "internal dissension".

(11-22-2015, 02:14 PM)gobobro Wrote: As for Willie, I totally disagree with the notion the Bengals shit on Willie. Willie was physically shot. He was nearing the end of the line, had a foot injury keep him out of the 2007 training camp, hinder his play until an added knee injury put him on IR, and lost his starting job to Whitworth. At the start of 2008, the Bengals said they'd love to have Willie finish out his career with the the Bengals, but that he'd be a backup to Whitworth, and would need to take a pay cut. Willie refused, and the Bengals let him go. He got a lot of money, and the opportunity to limp his body to the finish line with the team that drafted him.

Willie was replaced by Stacy Andrews instead of Whitworth.  And Willie played well enough to help the Ravens win a Super Bowl while the '08 Bengals finished DEAD LAST in total offense because their O-line sucked so bad.

(11-19-2015, 01:32 AM)ExtraRadiohead Wrote: http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/11/18/carson-palmer-facing-bengals-not-just-another-game/


I was surprised Palmer didn't take the "just another game" approach. He didn't beat us as a Raider so I guess the chip is going to be on his shoulder until he does. I think the Bengals have moved beyond seeking revenge on Palmer. Especially after losing to the Texans they are just going to be looking to get back to winning. How many players are left that even played with him? It's more for the fans and Palmer apparently.


I hope the d-line swarms him Sunday night and we see one of Palmer's classic pick sixes.

Yeah, if anything he knows this is a possible SB matchup and he definately respects this team.

It should be a great game and i like our chances if we can get in Carson's grill. We already know him very well.

Geno will surely be in his head after the last time they met...

Palmer was more of a part-time leader then a guy like Peyton or Brady imo. Things may be different in Arizona but that's the sense I got from him here.

I was reading an article during the early part of the season about Palmer and he was talking about how he didn't take the off-season as seriously as he should've until he got older. He pointed to eating habits and playing other sports for fun as the problems and now that he has kids and he's older he's more of a homebody. He went on to say how he has seen the benefits and feels better then ever even though he's later in his career. Wish I could remember where the story came from though...

(11-22-2015, 10:50 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: 1. I would never make excuses for Palmer because i thought it was BS the way he handled it. But i would try to put myself in the situation.

2. They had much more success the first 7 years he was here, compared to the 12 seasons prior. With that said, i don't think anyone believes they showed a different commitment to winning when you look at the "characters" they continued to bring in, i.e., all the arrests, ochocinco, the tocho show, etc. 

3. It's easier for a fan to not understand when they're not in the locker room and they view the team by the end of season results and see that they're winning more often. It's especially easier to be upset at him when you sit back and see the results of the last 4+ years. They've drafted better, picked up better FAs and stopped bringing in head cases. It's been way more business-like since '11 and more like a competitive NFL team without all the distractions.

4. With that said, i don't give him a pass for the ultimatum. But i can see how a guy with Palmer's mindset would get tired of the way things were while he was here. He may have lobbied for TO but TO was at the end of his career and even with his checkered past, he put up HOF numbers, so i can see why Palmer would lobby for him. That doesn't mean that once he's here, you regret the decision. I can clearly recall many times we saw the typical TO pouting and the lack of effort when he was pouting, like when he was walking back to the line of scrimmage against the Colts when the Bengals were in a hurry up mode at the end of the game.

5. None of what happened makes it ok, what Palmer did. But after a while, i can look at it without the emotion and see things that would make him want out. The last one in a line of good Bengals players that wanted out after a few years in the organization.

1. I think we've all tried to put ourselves in Palmer's shoes. We just seem to come to different conclusions.

2. I can somewhat see your point here. Benson, Pacman and TO were all characters. That said, if TO was the straw that broke Carson's back, that was his own doing. Homestly though, the arrests were more a 2006 thing than a 2010 thing.

3. You weren't in the locker room either. For all we know, they got along just fine. I don't let the current team affect how I view the 2010 team. I do know I think the "distractions" was a narrative that seemed exaggerated to me. The TOcho show was no different than AJ Hawk's podcasts. Funny how no one mentions that as a distraction. Probably because we're winning and no one wants to push a "AJ Hawk is a cancer" narrative.

4. If Palmer regretted asking for TO, that's still a Palmer problem, not a Bengals problem. Besides, it was quite clear that TO wouldn't be back anyway. Heck, that was known by week 14 of the 2010 season. So Palmer wanted out because a guy he requested didn't pan out and wouldn't be back the following season? This excuse doesn't fly.

5. I've always been able to look at the Palmer situation without emotion. Mainly because I decided during the 2010 season that I wanted to move on with a new QB. So when Palmer demanded a trade, it didn't bother me. In fact, I was relieved because MB is usually slow to make changes.

(11-22-2015, 03:03 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 3. You weren't in the locker room either. For all we know, they got along just fine. I don't let the current team affect how I view the 2010 team. I do know I think the "distractions" was a narrative that seemed exaggerated to me. The TOcho show was no different than AJ Hawk's podcasts. Funny how no one mentions that as a distraction. Probably because we're winning and no one wants to push a "AJ Hawk is a cancer" narrative.

Yeah right, that has to be the reason people don't treat the antics of Ocho and TO the same as Hawk.

I mean it couldn't possibly have anything to do with the fact that TO was famous for blowing up locker rooms and Ocho had tried to cry his way out of Cincinnati, quit on the team, and devoted more time to being famous than working on his football skills.

I cannot stand this guy. At all.

Hoping to see his big ass on the ground and Adam Jones or Nelson returning one or two picks for TDs. They're due.

(11-22-2015, 02:31 PM)fredtoast Wrote: What does this even mean?  I see people make this claim all the time, but they have nothing to back it up.

When Tom Brady yelled at his receivers it was called a sign of "fiery leadership".  When carson yelled a Chad it was called a sign of "internal dissension".



Willie was replaced by Stacy Andrews instead of Whitworth.  And Willie played well enough to help the Ravens win a Super Bowl while the '08 Bengals finished DEAD LAST in total offense because their O-line sucked so bad.

I'll need to see those displays of internal dissension. I remember Carson very much being a follower, and not a leader.

As for 2008, we finished dead last because Fitzpatrick was our QB... And the Steelers won the SB that year.

(11-22-2015, 03:33 PM)gobobro Wrote: As for 2008, we finished dead last because Fitzpatrick was our QB.

And why was Fitzpatrick out QB?  I'll give you a hint.  It started like this...



And ended with a torn elbow ligament that ended his season.

And BTW that guy who you call gutless actually played a game with that injury before he shut it down.

(11-22-2015, 03:33 PM)gobobro Wrote: I'll need to see those displays of internal dissension. I remember Carson very much being a follower, and not a leader.

How did you see Carson "being a follower"?  What exactly gave you this impression? Here is what I saw



 

(11-22-2015, 03:22 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yeah right, that has to be the reason people don't treat the antics of Ocho and TO the same as Hawk. :rolleyes:

I mean it couldn't possibly have anything to do with the fact that TO was famous for blowing up locker rooms and Ocho had tried to cry his way out of Cincinnati, quit on the team, and devoted more time to being famous than working on his football skills.

We're not talking about what TO did in Philly in 2004 or what Chad did in 2008.

We're talking about 2010 here. Particularly the harmless little talk show that is always blamed for all the losing that year. Tell me, Fred, do you think that TV show caused us to lose 10 straight? If not, why do people always bring it up?