(01-10-2022, 11:49 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: I wasn't a big Lawson fan although I never posted about it. The production just never seemed to be there but he does hustle.

I defended his production.  He got a lot of pressure on the QB.

But I did not want to re-sign him because of his injury issues.

(01-10-2022, 11:50 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Only you would be looking to argue over two grades that close (84.5 & 83.1).

You realize no matter how spectacular a play is they only award so many points for it right? So if Chase got dinged for causing some INT’s, drops, etc, it makes sense he  would be just a hair behind Tee. Like I already pointed out - the latter made less mistakes.

These are grades based on every little facet of the players game.

It is not about how close the PFF grades were.

It is about how much more productive Chase was.

Her are their ranks among the 49 WRs with at least 50 receptions.

.......................Chase....Tee
Yards................. 4th..... 15th
tds.................... 3rd..... 16th
yds/rec............. 2nd....  9th


And just like with Mixon I am a HUGE Tee fan.  I think he is very underrated.  But he is not close to Chase in production.

(01-11-2022, 12:07 AM)fredtoast Wrote: It is not about how close the PFF grades were.

It is about how much more productive Chase was.

Her are their ranks among the 49 WRs with at least 50 receptions.

.......................Chase....Tee
Yards................. 4th..... 15th
tds.................... 3rd..... 16th
yds/rec............. 2nd....  9th


And just like with Mixon I am a HUGE Tee fan.  I think he is very underrated.  But he is not close to Chase in production.

Grades aren't production based. They're whether you win or lose on a down to down basis and they're capped.

(01-11-2022, 12:10 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Grades aren't production based. They're whether you win or lose on a down to down basis and they're capped.

Then they are pretty worthless.

(01-10-2022, 11:35 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't know what you mean by "over all"?

Looking at what they both did this year which would you have taken if you could have had only one?

When you make a bad play, you get downgraded. More down the worse the mistake. More up, the better the play.

Chase has way more negative plays that Higgins. He was near the top of the league in drops, and a couple of them turned into picks and/cost us a TD. One did both. 

On the positive side, the difference is not as great. And Higgins missed two games. You are only getting graded on the plays you play.  You don't lose points for being injured, or gain them for being healthy.  If Tee had 0layed as many games, there numbers would be closer. A lot closer if Tee has a BIG game in ine of them. 

You seem to equate PFF score with some eyeball test of who had a better year. It is not the same thing. A guy could come in for two plays and grade out better than Chase, it does not mean he had a better year. 

(01-11-2022, 12:43 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Then they are pretty worthless.

No. They're not worthless. They just shouldn't be used as a comparison with stats. It's a comparison against other players of the same position and their win rate. Similar to win rate like they use for offensive and defensive lines. 

You should view the grades in one hand and the stats in another hand, they don't go together. 

(01-11-2022, 12:07 AM)fredtoast Wrote: And just like with Mixon I am a HUGE Tee fan.  I think he is very underrated.  But he is not close to Chase in production.

Im pretty sure Ja'Marr Chase also leads the NFL in dropped passes.

(01-11-2022, 12:49 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Similar to win rate like they use for offensive and defensive lines. 

Not really.

An O-lineman blocks the guy he is supposed to he gets a zero (not a +1) for doing his job.

A WR runs a route and doesn't get open he also gets a zero (not a -1) for NOT doing his job.

(01-11-2022, 12:43 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Then they are pretty worthless.

No. 

It is like the difference between yards per carry and yards overall. Or hits vs batting average in baseball. Both stats inform.  The person analyzing them just has to understand them and put them in context. 

Would you rather have the guy with more volume, but less effeciency? Availability is a skill to dome degree. Is the increaded production due to a better player, or more volume? Brady threw for a lot more yards than Burrow, but also threw a ton more passes? Who had the better year? 

Higgins averaged more catches per game. Seven less in 3 less games. On 18 fewer targets. In termsof targets per game, it is pretty close.  

But I do know that Chase opens things up for Higgins in a way the Tee does not for Chase.  Not sure

(01-11-2022, 12:57 AM)Synric Wrote: Im pretty sure Ja'Marr Chase also leads the NFL in dropped passes.

Should not really make that much difference.

According to ProFootballreference Ja'Marr had 6 more drops than Tee.  That is about one play every three games. Not near enough difference to outweigh the large difference in production.

(01-11-2022, 01:02 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Not really.

An O-lineman blocks the guy he is supposed to he gets a zero (not a +1) for doing his job.

A WR runs a route and doesn't get open he also gets a zero (not a -1) for NOT doing his job.

So then adjust for the difference. It doesn't matter, all guys at a similar position are graded with the same scale. Why would you compare an offensive lineman and a WR anyway?

I don't know why you're trying to make this so hard. It's just another way to compare players and it's subjective. Whoop-de-doo. Look at them and compare or don't. Despite your best efforts, you're not going to make the grades go away or make people stop looking at them because it just a different way of comparing guys. 

(01-11-2022, 01:08 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Should not really make that much difference.

According to ProFootballreference Ja'Marr had 6 more drops than Tee.  That is about one play every three games. Not near enough difference to outweigh the large difference in production.

How did those dropped balls effect the drive? Also what's the difference between Tee and Chase as run blockers which also affect overall PFF scores.

You are focusing on base stats but that doesnt measure overall efficiency. Dont get me wrong I'm not high on PFF especially lately but using base stats is a bad way to make a case.

(01-11-2022, 01:08 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote:  Why would you compare an offensive lineman and a WR anyway?

Because this thread is bases on a list of guys from all different positions.

So much for Jonah being "meh"....

(01-10-2022, 11:19 PM)Synric Wrote: And Tyler Boyd who is actually 9th on that list (72.6) pushing Hendrickson/Hilton to T10th.


Bengals need to continue to build around Joey B.

and Tyler is under contract for several more years as well. 

(01-10-2022, 11:25 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Bengal "fans" disliked Lawson more than the rest of the league.

Hardly anyone "disliked" Lawson, his problem, and his only problem, is staying healthy. I even pointed out when they let him go and picked up Hendrickson that if you looked back at Lawson's history through college and the NFL, he was on schedule to be injured this year. And he was. That's not disliking someone, it's just realizing you can't rely on them. 

(01-10-2022, 11:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I defended his production.  He got a lot of pressure on the QB.

But I did not want to re-sign him because of his injury issues.

I do overlook alot of the stats and usually just at sacks when there is a lot more to it than sacks. I do like Lawson and I liked Micheal Johnson I just didn't want to pay big money to resign them.

(01-11-2022, 12:07 AM)fredtoast Wrote: It is not about how close the PFF grades were.

It is about how much more productive Chase was.

Her are their ranks among the 49 WRs with at least 50 receptions.

.......................Chase....Tee
Yards................. 4th..... 15th
tds.................... 3rd..... 16th
yds/rec............. 2nd....  9th


And just like with Mixon I am a HUGE Tee fan.  I think he is very underrated.  But he is not close to Chase in production.

FWIW, Chase actually had a higher PFF receiving grade than Higgins.
Higgins was graded higher than Chase overall because of his higher blocking grade.

I realize though that most people never get to see this breakdown because they don't pay for the higher subscription tiers.

There still are some things though that I haven't been able to get an answer on.
For example, if a player (primarily TE or RB) blocks and then goes out for a pass, is that logged as a receiving snap or blocking snap.
Or how, for example, Quinton Spain has a 72.3 overall grade even though his run block grade is 76.4 but pass block grade is 58.9. He had 611 pass block snaps and just 384 run block snaps, so you'd think his overall grade would be impacted more by his pass blocking grade.

Not even PFF personnel just look at their grades and say "the higher graded player was better". There's always nuance, and if their grades aren't assessed with nuance then it is the viewer rather than the grade that is worthless.

Joe Burrow is the highest graded quarterback according to PFF in 2021. Most of their voices on podcasts etc name Aaron Rodgers or Tom Brady the league MVP instead of Burrow. That's not an indictment on the grades; it's an acknowledgement that the assessment process cannot possibly capture everything, and that if the grades are viewed separately from production and each is allowed to moderate/mediate impressions of the other, that it can paint a clearer picture.

Sometimes bad players are still productive. Sometimes good players are not. That's just the way it is.

(01-11-2022, 02:06 PM)ochocincos Wrote: FWIW, Chase actually had a higher PFF receiving grade than Higgins.
Higgins was graded higher than Chase overall because of his higher blocking grade.

I'm sure they're correct on Higgins blocking. But I'm remembering the play where Chase ran ahead of Mixon and took the safety out in the Lions game for an easy score.