(02-15-2022, 12:00 AM)jj22 Wrote: This too. I think Alexander is still scouting them quietly. And he was missing badly in his final years. 

I feel like I read Carman was his pick. Or Adeniji. Or someone. But I remember feeling like he is more involved then we'd like to think. 

Maybe Heinz changed the geometry of ketchup bottles and no one noticed rendering our scouting useless...

The funny thing is most of the board loves all the lineman we draft and sign. Ie The guy we got in the 6th round was projected to go in the 2nd Round.

It will happen again this year. The draft is riskier than people like to admit. Playing 5-6 guys from a draft class on offense and defense right away probably isn't a good thing. It indicates lack of talent...or great drafting. But likely the former.

(02-14-2022, 11:16 PM)jj22 Wrote:  It isn't just Carman that hasn't developed. Who has? None of the young guys....

First of all let me agree that Pollack is a bit over rated around here.  But this particular argument doesn't hold up well.  It is too early to judge Carman, Smith, and Hill, and other than that what quality young players does he have to develop?  Adeniji and Prince were 6th round picks.  Fred Johnson and Keaton Southern were undrafted free agents.

(02-15-2022, 12:07 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: The funny thing is most of the board loves all the lineman we draft and sign. Ie The guy we got in the 6th round was projected to go in the 2nd Round.

It will happen again this year. The draft is riskier than people like to admit. Playing 5-6 guys from a draft class on offense and defense right away probably isn't a good thing. It indicates lack of talent...or great drafting. But likely the former.

You're lucky if your first round pick starts as a rookie.  Almost half of them don't.  And it is considered a good draft if you get 3 solid starters.  Every year there are guys taken in the firat round who bust and a handful of guys in the later rounds that every team passes on multiple times who become real good players.  The draft is more of a crap shoot than most "experts" want to admit.

(02-14-2022, 11:16 PM)jj22 Wrote: You guys may be overrating Pollack. And I don't want to hear about the Rams HOF's when we know it was more than just that game. What has he done to not be questioned? There may be a reason he has bounced around so much and no new coach opts to keep him on the staff.

I don't think he's earned the jungle circling the wagon around him. It isn't just Carman that hasn't developed. Who has? None of the young guys.... Why was Fred benched. He was a much better tackle then guard, and held down the LT spot just as good as Williams for stretches when forced into action. He was benched for a player that missed a year after all the reps he got? Why was Carman benched for Adeniji? Cowboys fans said he drove their lambo into a ditch after taking over the line. JET's line never improved and his 1st round pick was benched (can he evaluate talent?). I think there's more questions there then people are ready to discuss.

You make a very good point.  We gave up more sacks this year with Pollack than with Turner last year and Turner arguably had less talent to work with..  Joe Mixon thinks he's amazing, though.  We basically hired an OL coach to fix a RB we're paying $12 mil a year for, but he's getting Burrow killed in the process.  

I don't trust his talent evals at all given his draft record. I don't expect rookie OL to come in and play well, but it's pretty sad that we drafted 3 OL last year and apparently none of them are better than Adeniji's sad carcass.  Adeniji can't even lace Bobby Hart's cleats, and that's saying something.

You want to improve our coaching?

Give them the players they need to execute their schemes.

You all would be amazed how much better Zac would be as a play caller with a couple of upgrades on the O-line.

(02-15-2022, 12:13 AM)Whatever Wrote: You make a very good point.  We gave up more sacks this year with Pollack than with Turner last year and Turner arguably had less talent to work with..  Joe Mixon thinks he's amazing, though.  We basically hired an OL coach to fix a RB we're paying $12 mil a year for, but he's getting Burrow killed in the process.  

I don't trust his talent evals at all given his draft record. I don't expect rookie OL to come in and play well, but it's pretty sad that we drafted 3 OL last year and apparently none of them are better than Adeniji's sad carcass.  Adeniji can't even lace Bobby Hart's cleats, and that's saying something.

We also pass A LOT so teams pass rush us A LOT too. A balanced offense is harder to blitz.

Plus, we're not a good screen team. Ie tactics to counter a blitz...we're not skilled at.

(02-15-2022, 12:13 AM)Whatever Wrote:  We gave up more sacks this year with Pollack than with Turner last year and Turner arguably had less talent to work with..  

2020 we gave up all those sacks even though everything we threw was dink and dunk.  For the entire season the Bengals had 9 pass completions of over 30 yards and 3 of those were short passes in the air.  This year we gave up a lot of sacks, but at least we were able to give enough time to throw the ball down the field some.  This year they had 28 passes of over 30 yards and only 7 were short passes.

This year we were 11th in third down conversion percentage when throwing on third and long (6+yds).  That does not sound great until you know that we were dead last (32nd) in 2020.

We still need A LOT of improvement, but it is not fair to say we did not improve the O-line this year.

When Reiff got hurt, the line tanked. Kind of amazing we won 3 playoff games with him out.

(02-15-2022, 12:35 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: When Reiff got hurt, the line tanked. Kind of amazing we won 3 playoff games with him out.

This.

(02-15-2022, 12:35 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: When Reiff got hurt, the line tanked. Kind of amazing we won 3 playoff games with him out.

The line was still bad even with Reiff.  This is an Oline that gave up 50+ sacks in regular season even with Reiff playing most of it. They didnt just get bad when Reiff went out, they have been bad all year.  I think the issue is many of our fans did not realize how bad the O-line was because they bought into these claims that the front office addressed the O-line issues.  A few weeks ago I even had a felllow poster debate with me that Burrow was responsible for 40+ sacks because he held on to the ball too long, that the O line wasnt that bad.  For whatever reason some of our fans havent been able to see how bad this line really is when many of us have been pointing out the need to improve it for years.  The line is bad and has been for a long time.

(02-14-2022, 09:46 PM)Joelist Wrote: I think my first order of business would have been to call Zac Taylor, Brian Callahan and Frank Pollack in for all day meetings,

For Pollack I would literally challenge him to explain why he should be retained on staff given the line performance. I'm not going in pre-decided to can him but if the answers are not good ones he's gone right then and there. After that it would be a review of all prospective Free Agents to start the process of identifying targets NOT BASED ON MONEY but based on who they believe will best fit the system and do it well.

For Taylor I would blast him good over doing absolutely nothing to defang the pass rush. One screen? No rollouts? No RPO concepts? Then he gets his extension but also gets removed from play calling and the job search starts for a REAL offensive coordinator.

Then I personally call Burrow and tell him not to worry - the blocking was unacceptable and no matter what it takes the line is getting fixed.

That's Day One.

This would not be a great idea. We would have a mutiny on our hands. You are dealing with professionals you should act like a professional.

(02-14-2022, 11:52 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I agree with this. It's kind of a fear. That the team will get to good, but not great.

But, Lou somehow turned from a bad coach to a good one...and don't just say they added players. He used an innovative scheme against the Ravens and Chiefs going against how the league defended those teams for instance.

I'd say for 2.5 seasons, we got outclassed in most games...then all of the sudden they weren't getting outclassed. Hopefully, they can build on that and keep improving. Have an elite qb helps.

The offense...is still off. It wasn't good in the playoffs.

These guys are going to get big extensions, so we gotta just hope they keep developing 

Defense played well enough down the stretch that I’d give Lou a pass. Need to pick up another pass rusher because we cannot always depend on Hendrickson. But I’ll admit after the Jets and Browns games I was ready to come out with torches and pitchforks. What a stud Logan Wilson is becoming. I thought he was a poor man’s Kuechly but it’s very possible he develops into a player just as good.

(02-14-2022, 11:54 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This is also why there is no cure for cancer.

No one has yelled enough at the researchers who have failed so far.

Why can't everyone see how simple the answer is.

I get the feeling that "Isaac Curtis" would say the reason there is no cure for cancer is because the drug companies have conspired together to make sure that cure never reaches the market.

I'm still waiting on a cure for this lifetime of Bengals' heartbreak.

(02-15-2022, 01:04 AM)007BengalsFan Wrote: The line was still bad even with Reiff.  This is an Oline that gave up 50+ sacks in regular season even with Reiff playing most of it. They didnt just get bad when Reiff went out, they have been bad all year.  I think the issue is many of our fans did not realize how bad the O-line was because they bought into these claims that the front office addressed the O-line issues.  A few weeks ago I even had a felllow poster debate with me that Burrow was responsible for 40+ sacks because he held on to the ball too long, that the O line wasnt that bad.  For whatever reason some of our fans havent been able to see how bad this line really is when many of us have been pointing out the need to improve it for years.  The line is bad and has been for a long time.

The line was improved form 2020.  The numbers show it.  Last year we gave up a lot of sacks even when we just threw short passes all year.  this year we gave up a lot of sacks, btu at least we had the time to throw the ball downfield more.

And Burrow was responsible for a lot of sacks.  Look at the sack number for guys like Russell Wilson and De Shaun Wilson who hold onto the ball longer trying to make plays.  That is what we are going to get from Burrow.  High sack numbers, but also lots of big plays.

the O-line neds to improve a lot more, but you also have to acknowledge that it was improved over the dumpster fire that was 2020.

(02-15-2022, 01:18 AM)Science Friction Wrote: I get the feeling that "Isaac Curtis" would say the reason there is no cure for cancer is because the drug companies have conspired together to make sure that cure never reaches the market.

I'm still waiting on a cure for this lifetime of Bengals' heartbreak.

Isaac is just top grade "management material".

All you have to do to be an amazing manager is just yell at your people until every problem is fixed.  You don't have to have a clue what you are talking about.  Just demand that the people under you fix everything.

(02-15-2022, 01:04 AM)007BengalsFan Wrote: The line was still bad even with Reiff.  This is an Oline that gave up 50+ sacks in regular season even with Reiff playing most of it. They didnt just get bad when Reiff went out, they have been bad all year.  I think the issue is many of our fans did not realize how bad the O-line was because they bought into these claims that the front office addressed the O-line issues.  A few weeks ago I even had a felllow poster debate with me that Burrow was responsible for 40+ sacks because he held on to the ball too long, that the O line wasnt that bad.  For whatever reason some of our fans havent been able to see how bad this line really is when many of us have been pointing out the need to improve it for years.  The line is bad and has been for a long time.

I saw the breakdown somewhere, but don't remember where, so someone here can probably find it. The total number of sacks broken down by how long the ball was held, and a good deal of them came after 4 seconds. That's asking a lot of linemen. 

(02-14-2022, 10:40 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I'd give them a few well deserved days off and then set up things for next Monday and ask what we could do as a collective to improve from the 2nd best team in the NFL to becoming the 1st best.

Then I'd swing by Elizabeth Blackburn's office and ask if she wants to see my "O face".

Bfine for owner!

(02-14-2022, 09:52 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: When Reiff got hurt...the line was in trouble.

(02-14-2022, 10:02 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Put Reiff in there and maybe it's a different story.

The line was trash before Reiff got hurt. Burrow had already been sacked 41 times in 13 games before Reiff went on IR between Week 14 and 15. 

Reiff being hurt was also a certainty to happen anyway. Guy was a 33-year-old who hadn't had a healthy season since 2015.

(02-14-2022, 09:46 PM)Joelist Wrote: I think my first order of business would have been to call Zac Taylor, Brian Callahan and Frank Pollack in for all day meetings,

For Pollack I would literally challenge him to explain why he should be retained on staff given the line performance. I'm not going in pre-decided to can him but if the answers are not good ones he's gone right then and there. After that it would be a review of all prospective Free Agents to start the process of identifying targets NOT BASED ON MONEY but based on who they believe will best fit the system and do it well.

For Taylor I would blast him good over doing absolutely nothing to defang the pass rush. One screen? No rollouts? No RPO concepts? Then he gets his extension but also gets removed from play calling and the job search starts for a REAL offensive coordinator.

Then I personally call Burrow and tell him not to worry - the blocking was unacceptable and no matter what it takes the line is getting fixed.

That's Day One.

Let me get this straight, we all have said many times we don't want Mike Brown to be a meddling owner and to leave the football decisions to those who know "football".  Now all of a sudden you as owner want to come in and start second guessing on-field decisions after this coaching staff has just taken it's supposed highly underdog team to the Super Bowl?

Jerry Jones is that you?