(02-15-2022, 09:03 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Agreed on not trusting Reiff.


Expecting a 34-year-old OT who hasn't played a full season since 2015 (6 straight seasons of being hurt) to suddenly stay healthy is a foolish bet.


So you want at least 4/5ths of the OL to stay the same? Again? After watching Burrow get battered for the second straight year? 

They already did the "trust Frank Pollack" thing for 2021. 4 of the 5 starting OL who were in the game Burrow got his knee destroyed in 2020 continued to be starters for the 2021 playoffs that saw him get pummeled. 

That's insanity. 


I would. Dude can't stay healthy. He's missed multiple games each of the last 5 years, and at least 5 games missed in each of the last 4 years. He's only played 43 out of his last 81 games and now he's heading into his age 31 season. He won't get MORE durable in his 30s and all those injuries will add up to shorten careers anyway.

That seems like a poor plan. Reiff wasn't the answer and he was a B guy. XSF was C+. A large pile of mediocrity is still just mediocrity. Go out there and fix the problem with proper talent and go win a Super Bowl. Get me 3 A tier guys and a 1st rounder to go with Jonah, protect Burrow, and lets roll over the NFL for the next couple years.

It takes 2-3 years to develop Offensive lineman. Pollack has to decide if these guys are worth a 3rd year.
Reiff is 33 by the way turning 34 in Dec. It is not as easy as going down to the corner store and buying a 12 pack of beer.
The "A" free agents have to be available cant be franchised and they have to want to come to Cincinnati.

You understand there is a salary cap to consider.

Why don't you respond by checking available free agents and their Market Value, age and durabilty..
Would love to know what 3 offensive line free agents and what lineman you know for sure we can target with the 31st pick.


It seems easy until you start filling out a 53 man roster. Cap goes down fast especially when you sign 23 million dollar free agents.
Currently we only have 36 guys under contract.
Here is a list of some of the more important ones that need to be signed or replaced. 

Tight End - Uzomah, 
Safety - Bates or a different Free agent
Def Tackle resign BJ Hill or a different Free agent
Def Tackle resign Josh Toupou or a different Free agent
Def Tackle resign Larry Ogunjobi or a different Free agent
Cornerback - resign Eli Apple or a different Free agent
Cornerback - resign Tre Flowers or a different Free agent
Linebacker - resign Markus Bailey or a different Free agent
Long Snapper - Clark Harris 
Back Up QB - Brandon Allen or a different Free agent


Good Luck!

(02-13-2022, 01:30 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I highly doubt they shift Jonah Williams at this point.
I think it's more likely they sign a FA to cover one (or both) of the right side spots.

They'll have up to 4 OL spots to replace:
Fred Johnson (highly likely gone)
XSF (highly likely gone)
Riley Reiff (potentially gone)
Quinton Spain (lowest chance of being gone)

As such, I think the OL could break down like this:

• Williams
• Hopkins
• Carman
• Adeniji
• Smith
• Spain
• Vet OT (Morgan Moses my pref)
• OT draft pick
• IOL draft pick
• Hill/Prince/late draft pick
  

If Linderbaum somehow fell to the Bengals, I'm snagging him up instantly and putting him at C. Hopkins is cheap enough that he could be kept even with Linderbaum, potentially putting him back at RG like Pollack did with him in 2018. As much as people were frustrated with Hopkins back in 2018 at RG, he was a good pass blocker there.

I would add James Daniels (can play either G position) and Ryan Jensen (aggressive at C, just needs work on snaps which I think is fixable) as veteran possibilities to go along with as well.

(02-15-2022, 09:37 AM)SuperBowlBound! Wrote: It takes 2-3 years to develop Offensive lineman. Pollack has to decide if these guys are worth a 3rd year.
Reiff is 33 by the way turning 34 in Dec. It is not as easy as going down to the corner store and buying a 12 pack of beer.
The "A" free agents have to be available cant be franchised and they have to want to come to Cincinnati.

You understand there is a salary cap to consider.

Why don't you respond by checking available free agents and their Market Value, age and durabilty..
Would love to know what 3 offensive line free agents and what lineman you know for sure we can target with the 31st pick.


It seems easy until you start filling out a 53 man roster. Cap goes down fast especially when you sign 23 million dollar free agents.
Currently we only have 36 guys under contract.
Here is a list of some of the more important ones that need to be signed or replaced. 

Tight End - Uzomah, Gronk could be available if a deal can be worked out
Safety - Bates or a different Free agent
Def Tackle resign BJ Hill or a different Free agent, re-sign
Def Tackle resign Josh Toupou or a different Free agent, I would bring up Daniels
Def Tackle resign Larry Ogunjobi or a different Free agent
Cornerback - resign Eli Apple or a different Free agent, he would make a good backup if we can sign an elite CB
Cornerback - resign Tre Flowers or a different Free agent, re-sign and designate him as S - he is an island against star TEs
Linebacker - resign Markus Bailey or a different Free agent
Long Snapper - Clark Harris 
Back Up QB - Brandon Allen or a different Free agent, Brian Hoyer maybe?


Good Luck!

(02-15-2022, 09:37 AM)SuperBowlBound! Wrote: It takes 2-3 years to develop Offensive lineman. Pollack has to decide if these guys are worth a 3rd year.
Reiff is 33 by the way turning 34 in Dec. It is not as easy as going down to the corner store and buying a 12 pack of beer.
The "A" free agents have to be available cant be franchised and they have to want to come to Cincinnati.

You understand there is a salary cap to consider.

Why don't you respond by checking available free agents and their Market Value, age and durabilty..
Would love to know what 3 offensive line free agents and what lineman you know for sure we can target with the 31st pick.


It seems easy until you start filling out a 53 man roster. Cap goes down fast especially when you sign 23 million dollar free agents.
Currently we only have 36 guys under contract.
Here is a list of some of the more important ones that need to be signed or replaced. 

Tight End - Uzomah, 
Safety - Bates or a different Free agent
Def Tackle resign BJ Hill or a different Free agent
Def Tackle resign Josh Toupou or a different Free agent
Def Tackle resign Larry Ogunjobi or a different Free agent
Cornerback - resign Eli Apple or a different Free agent
Cornerback - resign Tre Flowers or a different Free agent
Linebacker - resign Markus Bailey or a different Free agent
Long Snapper - Clark Harris 
Back Up QB - Brandon Allen or a different Free agent


Good Luck!

It also takes 2-3 years of screwing around with a shitty OL to waste a SB window.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/ReifRi00.htm
Reiff will be in his age 34 season next year. I admittedly should have said age 34 season rather than 34-year-old. I normally do.

Don't have to worry about that anymore. Guys will want to play for a team that just went to the SB and was only an OL away from winning.

Sure, and you understand that the Bengals have the 4th most cap space in the NFL, and are releasing Trae Waynes and Trey Hopkins away from having $72.6m in cap space.

James Daniels, G: 5yr/$50m

https://heavy.com/sports/chicago-bears/james-daniels-contract-extension-free-agency/

Austin Corbett, G: 4yr/$33.5m
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/los-angeles-rams/austin-corbett-25132/market-value/

Bradley Bozeman, C: 4yr/$40m
https://ebonybird.com/2022/02/05/bradley-bozeman-unlikely-ravens-2022/

As for the 31st pick, give me Daniel Faalele at RT. Last year the 31st pick was a 4yr/$11.3m contract.

That's $31.2m out of the $72.6m.


- - - - -


As for your list...


Uzomah, replace him with Gronk at 1yr/$8m (how much he played for in 2021).
Bates, replace him with Bryan Cook in the 3rd round (4yr/$4.8m in 2021).
BJ Hill, replace with Perrion Winfrey in the 2nd round (4yr/$5.6m in 2021).
Josh Tupou, replace with literally any random vet minimum guy, he had 3 solo tackles all year.
Eli Apple, replace with Charvarius Ward at 4yr/$40m (Spotrac projection)
Tre Flowers, replace with anyone at vet minimum or late pick. He allowed 120.1 QB Rating in his coverage this year, 111.0 with Bengals.
Markus Bailey, isn't a FA. He's still under contract for 2 more years.
Clark Harris, sign for 1yr/$1.25m (he was on a 1yr/$1.2m deal in 2021)
Brandon Allen, sign for 1yr/$1.5m (same he signed for in 2021)


That's roughly $23.35m to go with the previous $31.2m for a total of $54.55m... factor in an increase of 10% on the $54.55m FA costs just to cut down on arguments on the projections put it at an even $60m.


That also puts you at 49 guys on the roster, with only 2 more counting towards your cap number.
- - - - - - - - -


Final Balance to fill out the rest of the roster and sign some solid backups: $12.6m


Obviously that's also assuming all the contracts are equally balanced and don't increase the cap hits as years go on like almost every single contract in existence does. So in reality there'd be even more space.

(02-15-2022, 09:49 AM)Interceptor Wrote: I would add James Daniels (can play either G position) and Ryan Jensen (aggressive at C, just needs work on snaps which I think is fixable) as veteran possibilities to go along with as well.

Depending on cost of Ryan Jensen, that's fine.
He is older than Hopkins, and Hopkins did have a 71.6 PFF blocking grade since Week 11, which was 10th among Centers, so I wouldn't be surprised that they keep Hopkins unless they get someone younger.

100% in favor of James Daniels. He immediately upgrades the weakest spot on the OL.

(02-15-2022, 09:03 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote:  


I would. Dude can't stay healthy. He's missed multiple games each of the last 5 years, and at least 5 games missed in each of the last 4 years. He's only played 43 out of his last 81 games and now he's heading into his age 31 season. He won't get MORE durable in his 30s and all those injuries will add up to shorten careers anyway.

That seems like a poor plan. Reiff wasn't the answer and he was a B guy. XSF was C+. A large pile of mediocrity is still just mediocrity. Go out there and fix the problem with proper talent and go win a Super Bowl. Get me 3 A tier guys and a 1st rounder to go with Jonah, protect Burrow, and lets roll over the NFL for the next couple years.

I'm not sure what your plan would be, then.  Most of the A tier OL are guys like Scherff and Armstead who are north of 30 and have a lot of injury history.  Orlando Brown would be the only A tier guy under 30 without injury history.  Ryan Jensen doesn't have the injury history, but is over 30. Brown is projected to get $21-23 mil APY and Jensen $11-13 mil APY, so that doesn't leave enough room to resign guys and fill other holes if you're going after 3 guys in that price range.  Plus, the chances of an OL falling into our laps at 31 that isn't a reach, fits the scheme, can play at a high level immediately, and doesn't play the same position as one of the FA adds is pretty slim.

There are a number of B tier OL this year coming off their rookie deals that are still young, don't have the injury history, are quality starters, and who's play is still trending upwards.

(02-15-2022, 10:47 AM)Whatever Wrote: I'm not sure what your plan would be, then.  Most of the A tier OL are guys like Scherff and Armstead who are north of 30 and have a lot of injury history.  Orlando Brown would be the only A tier guy under 30 without injury history.  Ryan Jensen doesn't have the injury history, but is over 30. Brown is projected to get $21-23 mil APY and Jensen $11-13 mil APY, so that doesn't leave enough room to resign guys and fill other holes if you're going after 3 guys in that price range.  Plus, the chances of an OL falling into our laps at 31 that isn't a reach, fits the scheme, can play at a high level immediately, and doesn't play the same position as one of the FA adds is pretty slim.

There are a number of B tier OL this year coming off their rookie deals that are still young, don't have the injury history, are quality starters, and who's play is still trending upwards.

I think our divide here in our conversation is what an A tier is vs a B tier.

In my mind...

A Tier: Quality Starter or more
B Tier: Mediocre Starter/Borderline Starter
C Tier: High Quality Backup/Poor Starter

I think you've made A Tier really small. Bozeman was rated the 11th C, Daniels the 19th G, Corbett the 21st G. I think those are A Tier guys if they're in the top dozen or so at their position per starter spot. 

We need more lineman than that, I’d try and get Orlando Brown Jr cause who knows if Reiff can stay healthy

Trent Brown is something to explore, but I want RT in RD 1 and go FA on the interior

(02-15-2022, 10:58 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: I think our divide here in our conversation is what an A tier is vs a B tier.

In my mind...

A Tier: Quality Starter or more
B Tier: Mediocre Starter/Borderline Starter
C Tier: High Quality Backup/Poor Starter

I think you've made A Tier really small. Bozeman was rated the 11th C, Daniels the 19th G, Corbett the 21st G. I think those are A Tier guys if they're in the top dozen or so at their position per starter spot. 

I think that's the issue.  I generally see A tier FA's referred to as the Top 15-20 available.  Going by PFF's Top 200, Bozeman is ranked 94th, Daniels 40th, and Corbett 53rd.  Daniels and Corbett are a couple of guys I've been looking hard at, so I think we are looking at the same caliber of players. 

(02-15-2022, 01:32 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Trent Brown is something to explore, but I want RT in RD 1 and go FA on the interior

I don't know that I want to gamble on a RT in the first.  KC picks right before us and their top three T's are all UFA's.

TDN did a Post Bengals Super Bowl Mock.
https://thedraftnetwork.com/articles/bengals-nfl-mock-draft-2022-super-bowl

1. Zion Johnson OL Boston College
2. Damone Clark LB LSU
3. Abraham Lucas OT Washington State
4. Coby Bryant CB Cincinnati
5. Cole Strange OL Chattanooga
6. Jelani Woods TE Virginia
7. Leon O'Neal S Texas A&M
7. Tre Turner WR Virginia Tech

I dont think some of the guys will be there and Cole Strange was up and down st the Senior Bowl but overall I really like this mock.

I want change as much as the next person but I don't want change just to change.
Just want to post some PFF grades of some of the guys that have been talked about.

Austin Corbett - 68.8 - 8.7 Million
James Daniel - 71 - 7.3 Million
Bradley Bozeman - 73.3 - 9.9 Million
Terron Armstead - 75.9 - 23 Million
Trent Brown - 77.6 - 10.5 Million
Ryan Jensen - 70.3 - 10 Million

Quinton Spain - 72.3
Trey Hopkins - 51.4
Isiah Prince - 58
Hakeem Adenji - 48.3
Jonah Williams - 77.5
Riley Reiff - 67.3

I am not convinced Quinton Spain is the guy for LG. On some of the plays against Donald he was no better than a blocking sled.
The fact remains he has similar PFF grades to Corbett or Daniels. I am not sure how those guys would have done against Donald.
I would think Riley Reiff would post similar numbers at Guard.
I do think Trent Brown at RT would be a great upgrade. I also think Bozeman would be a good choice for Center.
20-30 Million on those 2 players should be doable for a team with our salary cap.

(02-15-2022, 02:37 PM)Synric Wrote: TDN did a Post Bengals Super Bowl Mock.
https://thedraftnetwork.com/articles/bengals-nfl-mock-draft-2022-super-bowl

1. Zion Johnson OL Boston College
2. Damone Clark LB LSU
3. Abraham Lucas OT Washington State
4. Coby Bryant CB Cincinnati
5. Cole Strange OL Chattanooga
6. Jelani Woods TE Virginia
7. Leon O'Neal S Texas A&M
7. Tre Turner WR Virginia Tech

I dont think some of the guys will be there and Cole Strange was up and down st the Senior Bowl but overall I really like this mock.

It's tough to draft 3 OL this year after drafting 3 OL last year and still need several quality starters out of FA on top of it.  I would be good with Zion in the first, but would rather let some of our current young guys develop before drafting more young depth and rebooting the learning curve.

I get the strategy of picking up multiple C+ to B lineman in FA over one legit A lineman. But if that one legit lineman raises the level of play of those around him and helps teach your draft picks, I think he pushes the needle further. He’ll make everyone else’s jobs easier on the line and in effect make those around him better. Plus, we have tried this C+ to B strategy in the past and we just keep ending up with a terrible offensive line. Just my two cents.

I also am not convinced there is a great olineman available at the bottom of the 1st round. NFL.com has us taking a DT. We need to fix the line in free agency so we aren’t reaching with our picks. Who knows how the draft will fall. Need to be able to pick BPA. Plus, it’s not like we aren’t trying to fix the oline through the draft. It’s not working and our draft position isn’t good to boot.

You really need better depth and draft a starter at #31 or move up. Pick up a top center in FA ( more economical than a top tackle like Armstead ($20 million). Move up 10 or so spots if there’s a tackle you like in the draft. Pick a corner at #62. Then you need to go with your draft board. At this point you are looking for depth. If they become a starter even better depth wise. I think the key is not spending more money than currently allocated to the starters with expiring contracts. Hopefully save some money to use with Wayne’s savings to sign Bates. But I think the strategy of a top center in FA and possibly move Hopkins to guard and a potential starter at tackle with your first pick and a corner at #62 is solid. Resign your free agents that are key like Uzomah, Bates, Spain, and Apple with team friendly deals. Carman needs to emerge. He needs for the light to come on. Showing up as a rookie over weight just was stupid.

Get to know Zion Johnson, I think he will be target at 1-31. But if not Johnson, probably best available CB. Bengals love first round corners.

LT: Jonah Williams, Body
LG: Body, Body
OC: Tyler Linderbaum (2021#31 and 2022 Rd 1 pick), Ben Jones(FA)
RG: Ben Jones(FA), Body
RT: Morgan Moses(FA), Body

Bodies: FAs Quenton Spain, Oday Aboushi(FA), Adeniji, Prince, F Johnson, Carman Jackson, Trey Hill, draft pick

(02-16-2022, 08:39 AM)Bengalstripes9 Wrote: I get the strategy of picking up multiple C+ to B lineman in FA over one legit A lineman. But if that one legit lineman raises the level of play of those around him and helps teach your draft picks, I think he pushes the needle further. He’ll make everyone else’s jobs easier on the line and in effect make those around him better. Plus, we have tried this C+ to B strategy in the past and we just keep ending up with a terrible offensive line. Just my two cents.

I also am not convinced there is a great olineman available at the bottom of the 1st round. NFL.com has us taking a DT. We need to fix the line in free agency so we aren’t reaching with our picks. Who knows how the draft will fall. Need to be able to pick BPA. Plus, it’s not like we aren’t trying to fix the oline through the draft. It’s not working and our draft position isn’t good to boot.

Dennis Roland played next to Bobbie Williams.
Nate Livings played next to Andrew Whitworth.
Cedric Ogbuehi played next to Kevin Zeitler.

They were all still three problems. They need to add 4 upgrades on the OL. One guy gets you nowhere other than 2020 and 2021 all over again.

I don't think anyone is arguing for a bunch of C+ guys, are they? Because I haven't seen anyone mention getting a bunch of XSFs.

(02-16-2022, 05:05 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: You really need better depth and draft a starter at #31 or move up. Pick up a top center in FA ( more economical than a top tackle like Armstead ($20 million). Move up 10 or so spots if there’s a tackle you like in the draft. Pick a corner at #62. Then you need to go with your draft board. At this point you are looking for depth. If they become a starter even better depth wise. I think the key is not spending more money than currently allocated to the starters with expiring contracts. Hopefully save some money to use with Wayne’s savings to sign Bates. But I think the strategy of a top center in FA and possibly move Hopkins to guard and a potential starter at tackle with your first pick and a corner at #62 is solid. Resign your free agents that are key like Uzomah, Bates, Spain, and Apple with team friendly deals. Carman needs to emerge. He needs for the light to come on. Showing up as a rookie over weight just was stupid.

I agree Carmen has to emerge but we cannot go into camp this year hoping. We have to have proven FA players.
I would really like to keep Hopkins at Center because he has been here so long but I just don't think he is the guy.
Whoever we draft at 31 oor trade up to 10 will be no better than Jonah Williams his first couple of years.
Again, we cannot take that chance either. I would rather not sign Bates keep Ricardo Allen and draft another safety.
The OL has to be fixed going into camp. Maybe a solid FA line line will help the younger guys develop.