I would bring Spain back next year,but he would have to earn it.The Right side of the OL is the issue here.Definitely,my primary goal this offseason would be to build the RG,RT,positions with Pro Bowl caliber linemen through FA,NOT the draft,as drafting O-Linemen in recent years has been nightmarish for us.I know there is such a thing as cap space that they’ll have to deal with.Whether this involves trades,or giving up draft picks,who cares,just get it done.

(02-17-2022, 12:11 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Wrong.  Spain currently counts zero dollars against our cap.  If we pay $6 million for his replacement then that is $6 million off our available cap space.

He may have been overpaid. Know many on here are big on Spain but not a huge fan personally. 

Would take him back as depth but if he had to start Id be like 

Quinton is traveling tonight on a plane 
I can see the red tail lights heading for Spain
And I can see Quinton waving goodbye
Oh wait it looks like Quinton staying, must be the clouds in my eyes, sigh

(02-17-2022, 01:18 PM)Go Cards Wrote: He may have been overpaid. Know many on here are big on Spain but not a huge fan personally. 

Would take him back as depth but if he had to start Id be like 

Quinton is traveling tonight on a plane 
I can see the red tail lights heading for Spain
And I can see Quinton waving goodbye
Oh wait it looks like Quinton staying, must be the clouds in my eyes, sigh

He's probably below average overall, but on a bad line he looks like one of the better ones.

(02-17-2022, 10:42 AM)TecmoBengals Wrote: This is always going to be Zac's approach when talking about on field play, his players, and his coaching staff. Zac maintains a calm, collected demeanor and maintains professionalism when answering questions. He doesn't show much emotion and places accountability on himself above others. It's admirable, but can be a tad frustrating when wanting to know more specific details about what's going on with the team. I like Zac's approach to leadership so I'm ready to roll with how he publicly communicates for the long haul.

Yep, but it's still better than a lot of coaches' pressers.

(02-16-2022, 01:30 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Absolutely

Williams may be the best of the bunch but even he isn't anything to write home about. We need a major retooling of the Oline.

And I agree with others, piano man isn't wrong.

When this exact thing was said several months ago, it was met with so much negativity and heat.

The guy is pretty...meh...and average. Which for a top 10 pick is absolutely unacceptable and basically a wasted pick. When you take a guy that high you expect a certain level of production, not average or just above.

(02-17-2022, 04:00 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: When this exact thing was said several months ago, it was met with so much negativity and heat.

The guy is pretty...meh...and average. Which for a top 10 pick is absolutely unacceptable and basically a wasted pick. When you take a guy that high you expect a certain level of production, not average or just above.

You should study draft outcomes more because this post is ridiculous. First, recent top 11 picks (he wasn’t actually a top 10) are out of FB altogether, Greg Robinson, Luke Joekel; guys who were forced to moved inside; Ereck Flowers, DJ Fluker; or guys that are rated worse Jedrick Wills, Mike McGlinchey, Jake Matthews &Taylor Lewan. Only 5 are rated higher (6 if you include Ronnie Stanley). So that is a pretty normal outcome. That doesn’t count if position class was high or not (it was not).

It is very hard to replace even “average” tackles in todays NFL. Really hard. In his defense I would point out that several OL evaluators don’t think he is only average. And he still young and he is making up for lost time after missing 22 games. The Bengals have a terrible record of OL drafting. Can we chill about the one positive outcome we did have?

(02-17-2022, 04:49 PM)CoachGeorge Wrote: You should study draft outcomes more because this post is ridiculous.  First, recent top 11 picks (he wasn’t actually a top 10) are out of FB altogether, Greg Robinson, Luke Joekel; guys who were forced to moved inside; Ereck Flowers, DJ Fluker; or guys that are rated worse Jedrick Wills, Mike McGlinchey, Jake Matthews &Taylor Lewan.  Only 5 are rated higher (6 if you include Ronnie Stanley).  So that is a pretty normal outcome.  That doesn’t count if position class was high or not (it was not).  

It is very hard to replace even “average” tackles in todays NFL. Really hard.  In his defense I would point out that several OL evaluators don’t think he is only average.  And he still young and he is making up for lost time after missing 22 games. The Bengals have a terrible record of OL drafting.  Can we chill about the one positive outcome we did have?

Sweet...so we should be happy with average because it is the best option we currently have...that sounds like typical Bengal logic and thinking.

He is replacable and upgradable and the team should be looking for the best 5 guys to keep the elite QB they drafted upright. If he started the year bad and increased his play across the season, I'd buy the making up for lost time narrative but some of his worst games were later in the year. He isn't a franchise LT and when you have a weapon like Burrow you sure as shit better have two guys that can keep edge rushers off of him on a consistant basis.

I also like how you ignored the pick 11 the year prior in your breaking down drafts.. Minkah Fitzpatrick. Safe to say that pick was a hit. Year before that at 11 some guy named Lattimore. That is the level of production you are looking for when you invest a 1st round pick in a guy, a guy who changes your franchise, Williams hasn't come close to being that type of player.

(02-17-2022, 12:11 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Wrong.  Spain currently counts zero dollars against our cap.  If we pay $6 million for his replacement then that is $6 million off our available cap space.

I didn't expand more on my comment about free agents like Spain and Reiff because I thought people would understand the point I was making regarding extra cap.  I guess not so let me spell it out so it is perfectly clear.   If Spain comes back how much is he going to demand a year? 1.5 million? 2 million?  How much would Conner Williams cost? 6 million?  The additional money needed to get Williams over Spain isn't 6 million because you are already going to be spending some of that money to bring Spain back.  

It's the same situation with people that keep saying we should bring back Riley Reiff.  We paid Rieff 7.5 million last year.  He would probably want a similar amount for another contract.  We could either pay Reiff 7.5 million or we could pay Morgan Moses 7.5 million.  You're not increasing the cap anymore signing Moses than you would be if you resigned Reiff.  This in addition to cutting guys like Hopkins with his 7.1 million cap and Adeniji with his near 1 million cap and Prince with his near 1 million cap.  Obviously you will be increasing the overall cap amount bringing in several new free agent linemen but its not near the jump some fans want to portray if you already have to spend millions to bring Spain and Reiff back and are cutting guys like Hopkins and Adeniji.  Here is what it comes down to:


Potential 2022 O-line and their hit to the cap:

Spain 1.5 million + Hopkins 7.1 million + Adeniji 1 million + Reiff 7.5 million = 17.1 million

Alternative 2022 O-line and their hit to the cap:

Conner Williams 6.7 million + Ryan Jensen 10 million + James Daniels 10 million + Morgan Moses 7.5 million = 34.2 million


The difference in bringing in good quality free agents to replace the horrible line we had is 17.1 million.    You cant even sign Terron Armstead by himself for 17 million and that's all it would cost to replace everyone but Jonah to improve the line.  Its not some outrageous amount of money. It is 17 million added to the cap over what the Bengals would pay for a crappy O-line. Is improving the line worth adding 17 million to the cap? I think most would agree it is.

(02-17-2022, 05:31 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Sweet...so we should be happy with average because it is the best option we currently have...that sounds like typical Bengal logic and thinking.

He is replacable and upgradable and the team should be looking for the best 5 guys to keep the elite QB they drafted upright. If he started the year bad and increased his play across the season, I'd buy the making up for lost time narrative but some of his worst games were later in the year. He isn't a franchise LT and when you have a weapon like Burrow you sure as shit better have two guys that can keep edge rushers off of him on a consistant basis.

I also like how you ignored the pick 11 the year prior in your breaking down drafts.. Minkah Fitzpatrick. Safe to say that pick was a hit. Year before that at 11 some guy named Lattimore. That is the level of production you are looking for when you invest a 1st round pick in a guy, a guy who changes your franchise, Williams hasn't come close to being that type of player.

“average “ is a big thing you you. Brandon Thorn, Lance Zierlen, Duke Manyweather and quite a few others don’t consider Jonah to be average and neither do I. I think you have it wrong.

I would love nothing more to have franchise tackles on both edges. But unless you are going to “weird science” one into creation, where do we get one?

The only point I agree with with is that Jonah fell off late in the season, it was predictable. Often times college players talk of hitting a wall when the season goes 16/17 games long. It’s pretty common. Jonah had played in just 10 games in two years. He’ll learn.

Minkah Fitzpatrick, Marcus Lattimore??? I at first thought that was sarcasm but now I know it sailed a thousand miles over your head. My list by wasn’t about the history of pick 11’s but of all OL picked 1-11 for the last 10 years. By that criteria, Jonah does not look like a bust or average at all.

(02-18-2022, 03:28 PM)CoachGeorge Wrote: “average “ is a big thing you you.  Brandon Thorn, Lance Zierlen, Duke Manyweather and quite a few others don’t consider Jonah to be average and neither do I. I think you have it wrong.

I would love nothing more to have franchise tackles on both edges.  But unless you are going to “weird science” one into creation, where do we get one?

The only point I agree with with is that Jonah fell off late in the season,  it was predictable.  Often times college players talk of hitting a wall when the season goes 16/17 games long. It’s pretty common. Jonah had played in just 10 games in two years.  He’ll learn.

Minkah Fitzpatrick, Marcus Lattimore???  I at first thought that was sarcasm but now I know it sailed a thousand miles over your head. My list  by wasn’t about the history of pick 11’s but of all OL picked 1-11 for the last 10 years.  By that criteria, Jonah does not look like a bust or average at all.

No where did I call him a bust.

But to act like he is a franchise LT is a bigger mistake then calling him a bust. 

I'm going to let you in on a little secret about Brandon Thorn, Lance Zierlen, Mel Kiper, and all the cats that are like them. This information is from my days of doing radio and meeting actual NFL front office executives, guys who were paid a ton of money to scout players. This informtation is why I laugh at people who say "Well I talked to (insert twitter guy) and he said this guy is the best." 

Ready... Anyone who is actual good at scouting NFL talent and has a real eye for it, is being paid a ton of money to do it for an NFL franchise or NFL network or affiliated NFL sources. People who are really good at it, aren't giving away their opinion for free on the internet, via youtube, twitter, etc. People who are skilled don't need to hype themselves on the net and don't give away their knowledge for free. Again, this is from actual NFL employees. "The people out there on the net trying to break down plays and players throw out so many opinions that there are right often enough that people forget how often they are wrong. That's why they have a day job and an opinion versus doing it for a living."

Stop putting your blind faith in twitter guy.

(02-17-2022, 01:32 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: He's probably below average overall, but on a bad line he looks like one of the better ones.

Spain was pretty solid in pass blocking. Out of 78 guards, he had the 19th best pressure % at 3.76%. 

I think everyone is going to be disappointed with the change in the OL. Forget about replacing or moving Jonah. He’s the best we have and there are much bigger problems to deal with. I think it’s likely they go to camp expecting Carman to be the RG as much as that scares me. They may end up getting a center in the draft (ideal if a good one falls to 31). I think the only big FA they might sign is at RT. It not sure who but I can’t see them replacing too many guys when they just drafted 3. Right or wrong I doubt they are giving up on Carman.
Also, OLs are units that have to think and play together. Getting 4 or 5 new starters isn’t going to happen in one off-season. I think getting one new G and one new T is the best we can hope for. If they get the right guys then the OL can be dramatically improved with just a couple of additions.

(02-17-2022, 05:31 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Sweet...so we should be happy with average because it is the best option we currently have...that sounds like typical Bengal logic and thinking.

Half of the teams in the league don't have an above average LT.  How is that possible if they are so easy to obtain?

Fans who think we can afford top 16 players at every position just don't understand NFL economics.

Jonah Williams is making $4.4 million and is better than average.  It would cost $8 million for an upgrade and the upgrade would not be that great because we still could not have an elite LT (which would cost $18+ million).

So why the hell spend $8 million for a small upgrade or $18 million for a top rated player at a position THAT IS NOT EVEN CLOSE TO OUR BIGGETS WEAKNESS?

(02-18-2022, 03:48 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: No where did I call him a bust.

But to act like he is a franchise LT is a bigger mistake then calling him a bust. 

I'm going to let you in on a little secret about Brandon Thorn, Lance Zierlen, Mel Kiper, and all the cats that are like them. This information is from my days of doing radio and meeting actual NFL front office executives, guys who were paid a ton of money to scout players. This informtation is why I laugh at people who say "Well I talked to (insert twitter guy) and he said this guy is the best." 

Ready... Anyone who is actual good at scouting NFL talent and has a real eye for it, is being paid a ton of money to do it for an NFL franchise or NFL network or affiliated NFL sources. People who are really good at it, aren't giving away their opinion for free on the internet, via youtube, twitter, etc. People who are skilled don't need to hype themselves on the net and don't give away their knowledge for free. Again, this is from actual NFL employees. "The people out there on the net trying to break down plays and players throw out so many opinions that there are right often enough that people forget how often they are wrong. That's why they have a day job and an opinion versus doing it for a living."

Stop putting your blind faith in twitter guy.

Another terrible take!

You didn’t call him a bust (others have) just as I didn’t label him a franchise LT. We should and could have an above average (top 10-12) for many years to come. For the 11 pick of the 2019 draft, that’s a favorable outcome. Nothing more, nothing less.

I find it comical that you bring up Mel Kiper (who I don’t particularly like) as a point of derision. Mel Kiper makes far, far more money than any scout in the NFL. Hilarious.

The fact that you’re not familiar who Thorn or Manyweather are tells me all I need to know. Manyweather runs OL Masterminds with All-Pro Lane Johnson and is widely attended by to many NFL players to list. Several Bengal players have sought out his services in Texax as well as dozens of others in D1 and the NFL.

https://www.chargers.com/news/duke-manyweather-rashawn-slater-justin-herbert-pairing

Brandon Thorn is on another level. He breaks down film as a profession. He’s good at it. His True Sacks Rate is widely known in NFL circles. He too works with OL Masterminds. He is my personal favorite.

So these aren’t some random dudes in the twitterverse. These guys are the real thing. For someone that his whole life thinking about OL, I approve. You are out of your element here. Just let it go.

(02-18-2022, 05:15 PM)CoachGeorge Wrote: So these aren’t some random dudes in the twitterverse.  These guys are the real thing.  For someone that his whole life thinking about OL, I approve.  You are out of your element here.  Just let it go.

Again...people who are good at it, are paid by NFL franchises top dollar. You don't really know there names unless you look deep into the team's directory.

But hey, as you self proclaim spent your "whole life thinking about OL" we should just all bow to your greatness....cause.. I mean you coach an NFL line right....

Again, the people who are really good at this stuff don't toss it around for free on the internet. Willie Anderson runs a school, lots of guys go there. Willie Anderson said he could fix RG Michael Jordan. Now I love Willie and respect his opinion, he played the game at a high level but he was wrong on being able to fix Jordan. 

Stop acting like some OL expert dude, if you were you wouldn't be on a message board arguing about Jonah Williams... he's average. First it was he had a bad coach and injuries, but he had a full healthy season and an upgraded OL coach that everyone around was excited to have back, he didn't progress. He stayed healthy but did excel. No more excuses. 

(02-17-2022, 04:00 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: When this exact thing was said several months ago, it was met with so much negativity and heat.

The guy is pretty...meh...and average. Which for a top 10 pick is absolutely unacceptable and basically a wasted pick. When you take a guy that high you expect a certain level of production, not average or just above.

Eh...I think fans think that all Top 10 picks are stars, etc. There might be 2 stars. 3 solid starters. 2 below average guys. And 3 busts. And the odds get worse as you move further down in the 1st Round.

I'd say Williams is a Solid Tackle. Graded out at 77.5 PFF grade.

And he wasn't a Top 10 pick. He got drafted at 11.

His major issue is staying healthy.

(02-17-2022, 05:31 PM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Sweet...so we should be happy with average because it is the best option we currently have...that sounds like typical Bengal logic and thinking.

He is replacable and upgradable and the team should be looking for the best 5 guys to keep the elite QB they drafted upright. If he started the year bad and increased his play across the season, I'd buy the making up for lost time narrative but some of his worst games were later in the year. He isn't a franchise LT and when you have a weapon like Burrow you sure as shit better have two guys that can keep edge rushers off of him on a consistant basis.

I also like how you ignored the pick 11 the year prior in your breaking down drafts.. Minkah Fitzpatrick. Safe to say that pick was a hit. Year before that at 11 some guy named Lattimore. That is the level of production you are looking for when you invest a 1st round pick in a guy, a guy who changes your franchise, Williams hasn't come close to being that type of player.

No team could afford to go into free agency and add the 5 best offensive lineman.

Generally, teams have cap space...because they have a lot of free agents. We don't have any high priced guys retiring. And we have guys like Bates/Ogunjobi/Hill that will be due for sizeable raises.

As far as Minkah Fitzpatrick...the Dolphins moved him from CB to Safety.  Plus, he kind of underperformed in Miami and got traded to the Steelers. He makes some big plays there, but he also takes some risks and gets beat.

(02-18-2022, 05:56 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: No team could afford to go into free agency and add the 5 best offensive lineman.

Generally, teams have cap space...because they have a lot of free agents. We don't have any high priced guys retiring. And we have guys like Bates/Ogunjobi/Hill that will be due for sizeable raises.

As far as Minkah Fitzpatrick...the Dolphins moved him from CB to Safety.  Plus, he kind of underperformed in Miami and got traded to the Steelers. He makes some big plays there, but he also takes some risks and gets beat.

I'm aware you're not going to be able to hire the top 5 guys in FA but people started this crap last off-season as well that, "well the line really only needs 1 or 2 guys and we will be fine, plus we have a new coach." It failed, and failed miserably.

The Chiefs in one off-season rebuilt their line completely, 5 new guys. If the Bengals do that with Burrow and these weapons, they are headed right back to the Super Bowl.

Sign Armstead, kick Jonah to RT, sign Daniels, and trade up (31st pick in 2022..32nd pick in 2023) to get Linderbaum.

So with 2 free agent signings and a draft pick you've improved 4 out of 5 OL positions.

Easy peasy

Maybe we should let Paul Alexander hand pick our 2nd round choice so that our bench can be well stocked with players who can't start over Spain.