...then why did our other QBs take so many over the last 2 years?

In that time frame, Brandon Allen and Ryan Finley combined for:

7 starts
208 pass attempts
20 sacks

If you average those sacks out to 1066 pass attempts (Burrow's attempts in '20-21), it comes out to 102.5 sacks.

How many times was Burrow sacked in those same attempts? 102.

I think Burrow is taking too much blame for a problem that has existed with this team since 2016:

2016 - 41 sacks on 563 attempts
2017 - 40 sacks on 510 attempts
2018 - 37 sacks on 542 attempts
2019 - 48 sacks on 616 attempts
2020 - 48 sacks on 581 attempts
2021 - 74 sacks on 697 attempts

Remember when Dalton got sacked 7 times against the Jets a few years ago? Dalton's game was pre-snap reads and (mostly) quick throws. The type of stuff that should limit sacks...yet even HE was getting sacked at a high rate.

The line is just terrible, as it has been for 6 years now, and it looks even worse when we have a great QB who is aggressive and looking to push the ball downfield, rather than made quick predetermined throws.

Rather than asking Burrow to adjust a mentality that led us to a Super Bowl, maybe the FO should adjust and make this line great for the first time in ages.

(02-18-2022, 07:45 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Rather than asking Burrow to adjust a mentality that led us to a Super Bowl, maybe the FO should adjust and make this line great for the first time in ages.

THIS ^^^ X 1,000,000!!!

Great point.

Last season Burrow was taking more coverage sacks his rookie year. This year not so much

I'm sympathetic to the premise of the thread. However, if you look at those cited statisitcs, this past year is the only one where well over 10 % of the pass plays resulted in sacks. The other seasons weren't really close to 10%. Come to think of it, I assume sacks would have to be counted separately, since a sack cannot result in a pass attempt. Oh heck, you get my point.

I don't necessarily have a major issue with a QB taking the occasional sack. But he has to be a bit more judicious when they're in McPherson's long field goal range.

Something is really wrong when you take 9 sacks in one playoff game and 7 in the SB. That does not lay on the QB. It's a catch 22 really. You want a QB who can keep the play alive and not Andy Dalton chuck it out of bounds at the first glimps of a defender in the background, but also, Burrow is forced way to soon to get out of the pocket or move up in it to try and make something happen. He needs at least an extra second.

(02-18-2022, 08:12 PM)ElkValleyBengal Wrote: I'm sympathetic to the premise of the thread. However, if you look at those cited statisitcs, this past year is the only one where well over 10 % of the pass plays resulted in sacks. The other seasons weren't really close to 10%. Come to think of it, I assume sacks would have to be counted separately, since a sack cannot result in a pass attempt. Oh heck, you get my point.

I don't necessarily have a major issue with a QB taking the occasional sack. But he has to be a bit more judicious when they're in McPherson's long field goal range.

I answered these questions within the OP, really. In the past we had a QB who masked the issue somewhat with quick predetermined throws. He was getting sacked at a high rate, as was rookie Burrow.

It got even worse this year, but I'd say that's due to Burrow's aggressive nature and having the weapons to push the ball downfield.

Imo, the problem isn't Burrow's aggressiveness, it's that the line is getting fully exposed for how awful it is when we're not scheming to protect it.

Burrow shouldn't have to constantly look for dump offs and hot reads.

(02-18-2022, 07:45 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: ...then why did our other QBs take so many over the last 2 years?

In that time frame, Brandon Allen and Ryan Finley combined for:

- - - - - - - -

Rather than asking Burrow to adjust a mentality that led us to a Super Bowl, maybe the FO should adjust and make this line great for the first time in ages.

Finley isn't even in the league anymore because he wasn't even an NFL-caliber backup. He's just bad at (NFL level) football. As for Brandon Allen and Andy Dalton, rather than do all that math you only needed a couple numbers...

Andy Dalton Bengals Sack%: 6.6  (that's from 2016-2019 only, it was 5.3 from 2011-2015)
Brandon Allen Bengals Sack%: 5.9
Joe Burrow Bengals Sack%: 8.2

That's a significant different, Shake. One that can't be easily waved away from there just being one source of problem.

- - - - - - - -

Andrew Luck's mentality led the Colts to the playoffs his first 3 years in the league, including to the AFC Championship game... it doesn't change the fact that it ended his career. Burrow's had a completely rebuilt knee in year 1 and now an MCL sprain in the other that's taken him down screaming in pain multiple times that he had to play on for 2 months in year 2.

Keep his mentality if you're fine with only 5 years of Joe Burrow. Change his mentality at least some if you actually want 15-20 years of Joe Burrow.

- - - - - -- - - 

...and this is coming from a guy who's been among the loudest for years about needing to fix the OL, so you know this isn't me scapegoating Burrow or anything Shake. These two matters of the OL being awful and Burrow needing to change aren't mutually exclusive.

Have there been plays where Joe has tried to do to much and hung on to long and caused his own sack ? yes

But those plays account for maybe 3.5% of his sacks, I made the percentage up so don't blow a gasket stat freaks. Point is that's a very small % of the problem.

Like the OP says the real problem is the Oline has sucked for years now. The 2015 draft and 2017 or whatever when we got Price has gutted the Oline. What's the famous quote "we traded for the 10th highest paid tackle in the NFL" who quit on the team. Anyways other than him they've pretty much nickel and dimed their way thru trying to put a band-aid on it.

I know I'm somewhat in the minority but IMO we haven't had a real center since Richie Braham save one year like 10 years ago from the one dude, forget his name ? Got hurt and never really came back.

They've got to quit the bargin basement Oline method, that's all there is to it.

(02-18-2022, 08:41 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Finley isn't even in the league anymore because he wasn't even an NFL-caliber backup. He's just bad at (NFL level) football. As for Brandon Allen and Andy Dalton, rather than do all that math you only needed a couple numbers...

Andy Dalton Bengals Sack%: 6.6  (that's from 2016-2019 only, it was 5.3 from 2011-2015)
Brandon Allen Bengals Sack%: 5.9
Joe Burrow Bengals Sack%: 8.2

That's a significant different, Shake. One that can't be easily waved away from there just being one source of problem.

- - - - - - - -

Andrew Luck's mentality led the Colts to the playoffs his first 3 years in the league, including to the AFC Championship game... it doesn't change the fact that it ended his career. Burrow's had a completely rebuilt knee in year 1 and now an MCL sprain in the other that's taken him down screaming in pain multiple times that he had to play on for 2 months in year 2.

Keep his mentality if you're fine with only 5 years of Joe Burrow. Change his mentality at least some if you actually want 15-20 years of Joe Burrow.

- - - - - -- - - 

...and this is coming from a guy who's been among the loudest for years about needing to fix the OL, so you know this isn't me scapegoating Burrow or anything Shake. These two matters of the OL being awful and Burrow needing to change aren't mutually exclusive.

I am also a build inside-out guy that was on Team Sewell, but you also might want to factor in that Andy had one of the quickest releases with timing patterns and dump offs, Brandon is a runner, and Joe is a downfield pocket passer.  Their different styles will increase and decrease the probability of sack numbers if the line has consistently been playing at about the same. But I agree Joe's playstyle + current OL talent = Andrew Luck, if there is little to no change.

(02-18-2022, 07:45 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: ...then why did our other QBs take so many over the last 2 years?

In that time frame, Brandon Allen and Ryan Finley combined for:

7 starts
208 pass attempts
20 sacks

If you average those sacks out to 1066 pass attempts (Burrow's attempts in '20-21), it comes out to 102.5 sacks.

How many times was Burrow sacked in those same attempts? 102.

I think Burrow is taking too much blame for a problem that has existed with this team since 2016:

2016 - 41 sacks on 563 attempts
2017 - 40 sacks on 510 attempts
2018 - 37 sacks on 542 attempts
2019 - 48 sacks on 616 attempts
2020 - 48 sacks on 581 attempts
2021 - 74 sacks on 697 attempts

Remember when Dalton got sacked 7 times against the Jets a few years ago? Dalton's game was pre-snap reads and (mostly) quick throws. The type of stuff that should limit sacks...yet even HE was getting sacked at a high rate.

The line is just terrible, as it has been for 6 years now, and it looks even worse when we have a great QB who is aggressive and looking to push the ball downfield, rather than made quick predetermined throws.

Rather than asking Burrow to adjust a mentality that led us to a Super Bowl, maybe the FO should adjust and make this line great for the first time in ages.

If you REALLY wanna see the Bengals go all in on the OL, expect to see some players not returning and maybe even replaced by draft picks.
Bates, Hill, Ogunjobi, even Boyd potentially.
Moving on from at least two of those guys would really allow the Bengals to have an easy time signing some top OL talent.

(02-18-2022, 08:47 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: They've got to quit the bargin basement Oline method, that's all there is to it.

100% agreed, it's that simple. We can discuss things Burrow can do to improve as a QB to avoid sacks, we can talk about Pollack's scheme, and a whole bunch of other things but it comes down to what you've posted. 

(02-18-2022, 08:41 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Finley isn't even in the league anymore because he wasn't even an NFL-caliber backup. He's just bad at (NFL level) football. As for Brandon Allen and Andy Dalton, rather than do all that math you only needed a couple numbers...

Andy Dalton Bengals Sack%: 6.6  (that's from 2016-2019 only, it was 5.3 from 2011-2015)
Brandon Allen Bengals Sack%: 5.9
Joe Burrow Bengals Sack%: 8.2

That's a significant different, Shake. One that can't be easily waved away from there just being one source of problem.

- - - - - - - -

Andrew Luck's mentality led the Colts to the playoffs his first 3 years in the league, including to the AFC Championship game... it doesn't change the fact that it ended his career. Burrow's had a completely rebuilt knee in year 1 and now an MCL sprain in the other that's taken him down screaming in pain multiple times that he had to play on for 2 months in year 2.

Keep his mentality if you're fine with only 5 years of Joe Burrow. Change his mentality at least some if you actually want 15-20 years of Joe Burrow.

- - - - - -- - - 

...and this is coming from a guy who's been among the loudest for years about needing to fix the OL, so you know this isn't me scapegoating Burrow or anything Shake. These two matters of the OL being awful and Burrow needing to change aren't mutually exclusive.

None of those sack percentages are good, and we seem to agree that Burrow being aggressive is the reason the sack % went up this year. Without looking, I'm guessing the sack % was lower for Burrow in 2020 (but still very bad).

Andrew Luck had awful lines as well. He just never changed to protect himself. He shouldn't have had to though. Didn't he also have a problem with sliding? He ran a bit more than Joe.

You're not going to throw any QB behind this line and see anything less than 40 sacks, and that's if you neuter the offense to protect the line. I'm saying that's the wrong mentality to take.

We don't reach the Super Bowl this year if Burrow had to play like Dalton, making one read and throwing quickly. Getting in the habit of checking down at the first sign of danger. We know this line is doo-doo, right? So work on it and let Burrow be Burrow and lets see if we're still giving up 50+ sacks in reg season.

If so, fine. Try to get Burrow to change things up. Until then, I can't sit here and say Joe is the problem when we've always had this problem, but always schemed to hide it.

Fix it first, and see how it goes. If we have a line full of good talent and without multiple guys grading in the 40s per PFF, and Joe still gets sacked 50+ times, sure...let's talk Joe. We haven't seen that yet.

That's all I'm saying.

If y'all want to keep dancing around the real issue, that's fine by me. However, I'll come right out and say it. We need an OL that can provide a viable rushing attack. The point is, nobody believes that the Bengals will run the ball, they don't fear it. Sure, they catch teams by surprise with some unexpected rushes for nice gains, but when it counts the rush gets stuffed behind the line to gain.

Get some aggressive Mofo's that want to dominate their opponent, and Joe will have a long and illustrious career.

(02-18-2022, 08:47 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Like the OP says the real problem is the Oline has sucked for years now. The 2015 draft and 2017 or whatever when we got Price has gutted the Oline.

It was the 2018 draft when Price was picked.  But the 2017 John Ross draft was so bad it should almost be against the law.   Mixon in the 2nd is the only player really worth mentioning.  Only one O-lineman drafted that year and that was J Dielman in the 5th round.  That 2017 draft I think really set the team back.

Then we had the whole trade for Cordy Glenn thing in 2018 that turned into a turd.  It isn't for a lack of trying I think most years.  But the Bengals have been really bad at evaluating O-line talent.  At this point I would totally support them paying for and bringing in an outside consultant because they have whiffed so many times when it comes to the O-line in the last 7 years it isn't even funny.  

(02-18-2022, 09:13 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: None of those sack percentages are good, and we seem to agree that Burrow being aggressive is the reason the sack % went up this year. Without looking, I'm guessing the sack % was lower for Burrow in 2020 (but still very bad).

Andrew Luck had awful lines as well. He just never changed to protect himself. He shouldn't have had to though. Didn't he also have a problem with sliding? He ran a bit more than Joe.

You're not going to throw any QB behind this line and see anything less than 40 sacks, and that's if you neuter the offense to protect the line. I'm saying that's the wrong mentality to take.

We don't reach the Super Bowl this year if Burrow had to play like Dalton, making one read and throwing quickly. Getting in the habit of checking down at the first sign of danger. We know this line is doo-doo, right? So work on it and let Burrow be Burrow and lets see if we're still giving up 50+ sacks in reg season.

If so, fine. Try to get Burrow to change things up. Until then, I can't sit here and say Joe is the problem when we've always had this problem, but always schemed to hide it.

Fix it first, and see how it goes. If we have a line full of good talent and without multiple guys grading in the 40s per PFF, and Joe still gets sacked 50+ times, sure...let's talk Joe. We haven't seen that yet.

That's all I'm saying.

Right

With Adeniji getting rolled like the joints I used to.... well anyways, when you have .065 seconds to throw the ball with free rushers every other play it doesn't matter who is QB.

The offense will suffer - big time.

Get the man a damn Oline for cryin out loud.

Improving the offensive line will allow for more checkdown options for Joe Burrow.

Here’s how: If the center, guards, and tackles do their job then it frees a tight end or a running back to become the checkdown receiver. Right now Joe needs the tight end and running back to backfill the big five up front who aren’t able to provide adequate pass protection. Free those guys up to run shallow checkdown routes and life will immediately improve.

Joe isn’t “causing” sacks per se.

(02-18-2022, 07:45 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: ...then why did our other QBs take so many over the last 2 years?

In that time frame, Brandon Allen and Ryan Finley combined for:

7 starts
208 pass attempts
20 sacks

If you average those sacks out to 1066 pass attempts (Burrow's attempts in '20-21), it comes out to 102.5 sacks.

How many times was Burrow sacked in those same attempts? 102.

I think Burrow is taking too much blame for a problem that has existed with this team since 2016:

2016 - 41 sacks on 563 attempts
2017 - 40 sacks on 510 attempts
2018 - 37 sacks on 542 attempts
2019 - 48 sacks on 616 attempts
2020 - 48 sacks on 581 attempts
2021 - 74 sacks on 697 attempts

Remember when Dalton got sacked 7 times against the Jets a few years ago? Dalton's game was pre-snap reads and (mostly) quick throws. The type of stuff that should limit sacks...yet even HE was getting sacked at a high rate.

The line is just terrible, as it has been for 6 years now, and it looks even worse when we have a great QB who is aggressive and looking to push the ball downfield, rather than made quick predetermined throws.

Rather than asking Burrow to adjust a mentality that led us to a Super Bowl, maybe the FO should adjust and make this line great for the first time in ages.

Cause those are the same guys who swore last offseason Reiff and Carman were enough to fix the offensive line! Now they shifted to blaming Burrow for holding it too long!

AND enough of drafting the shit Offensive Lineman like the Bengals have been for 5+ years, go after proven starters who can protect Burrow before he misses another season ending injury!

(02-18-2022, 07:45 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: ...then why did our other QBs take so many over the last 2 years?

In that time frame, Brandon Allen and Ryan Finley combined for:

7 starts
208 pass attempts
20 sacks

If you average those sacks out to 1066 pass attempts (Burrow's attempts in '20-21), it comes out to 102.5 sacks.

How many times was Burrow sacked in those same attempts? 102.

I think Burrow is taking too much blame for a problem that has existed with this team since 2016:

2016 - 41 sacks on 563 attempts
2017 - 40 sacks on 510 attempts
2018 - 37 sacks on 542 attempts
2019 - 48 sacks on 616 attempts
2020 - 48 sacks on 581 attempts
2021 - 74 sacks on 697 attempts

Remember when Dalton got sacked 7 times against the Jets a few years ago? Dalton's game was pre-snap reads and (mostly) quick throws. The type of stuff that should limit sacks...yet even HE was getting sacked at a high rate.

The line is just terrible, as it has been for 6 years now, and it looks even worse when we have a great QB who is aggressive and looking to push the ball downfield, rather than made quick predetermined throws.

Rather than asking Burrow to adjust a mentality that led us to a Super Bowl, maybe the FO should adjust and make this line great for the first time in ages.

It's a mix of the offensive line and QB. QBs always share some responsibility for sacks, good or bad. A QB can't be sacked unless unless he is holding the ball is the basic idea behind that. 

YEAR     SK%     Lg. Avg.    % Difference
2016       6.7%     5.8%         15%
2017       7.2%     6.4%         12.5%
2018       6.3%     6.42%       -2%
2019       7.2%     6.7%         7%
2020       7.6%     5.9%         28%
2021       9.5%     6.2%         53%

Over that time span, the Bengals largely hovered around league average/below average. In Burrow's two years, they have shot to well below average/awful category. Is some of this due to talent? Yeah, of course. Is some of this due to QB? Yes, as well. They go hand-in-hand. Cincinnati needs to put better offensive linemen around Burrow, but there are some things that Burrow can do to clean it up as well. 

(02-18-2022, 09:13 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: If y'all want to keep dancing around the real issue, that's fine by me.  However, I'll come right out and say it.  We need an OL that can provide a viable rushing attack.  The point is, nobody believes that the Bengals will run the ball, they don't fear it.  Sure, they catch teams by surprise with some unexpected rushes for nice gains, but when it counts the rush gets stuffed behind the line to gain.

Get some aggressive Mofo's that want to dominate their opponent, and Joe will have a long and illustrious career.  

That's right

I'd love to see a stat if there is one for how many of our between the tackles run plays got stuffed for 2 yards or less. How many of our runs when everybody and their brother knew a run was coming got stuffed ? So on, so on.

(02-18-2022, 07:45 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Rather than asking Burrow to adjust a mentality that led us to a Super Bowl, maybe the FO should adjust and make this line great for the first time in ages.

But … per Taylor .. that same Oline …..also got us to the SB too.

(rolls eyes)