(02-25-2022, 11:16 AM)Joelist Wrote: This is a little puzzling. Center is nowhere near top of the need list. In order we need RG, RT, then C.

It is if you are remaking the entire OL (which they should). They shouldn't stop at RG, and RT. The whole thing needs gutting. 

(02-25-2022, 10:29 AM)PhilHos Wrote: Yeah, I remember him being only a backup until he was forced to play center and since he wasn't a total liability, kept the job. But considering how much experience he's gained since taking over as the starting center, could he be serviceable or better as a guard? Like, is guard easier or harder. I know it's definitely different, but just curious as to how well (or not) Hopkins could do at guard.

In any event, if we do get a new center (fingers crossed), I think we still keep Hopkins as a backup.

Mentally, Guard is easier.  Physically, you need to be able to move large, aggressive men off the ball.  Hopkins is not good at moving large players off the ball.

(02-25-2022, 11:14 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: The guy works for Pro Football Network (and has had several stops at different papers), so it’s definitely a credible source. I don’t think he’s just projecting here. He definitely heard something.

Nice. It would be sweet to land Bozeman and other OL because I'd love to see some seasoned pros who are talented be signed during free agency. It would be a nice luxury for the draft if there was a comfortable sense that the OL was already vastly improved prior to pick 31.

(02-25-2022, 11:33 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: It is if you are remaking the entire OL (which they should). They shouldn't stop at RG, and RT. The whole thing needs gutting. 

When the VAST majority of the OL issues were all on the right side the priority needs to be there. So RG first, RT second. Center is third at highest. 

(02-25-2022, 04:02 PM)Joelist Wrote: When the VAST majority of the OL issues were all on the right side the priority needs to be there. So RG first, RT second. Center is third at highest. 

Free agency hasn't started. Do you think they're not capable of looking at all 3 positions along with other position groups at the same time? Kind of silly to not prepare for who they want to target at C & RT until after they've signed a RG. 

(02-25-2022, 04:02 PM)Joelist Wrote: When the VAST majority of the OL issues were all on the right side the priority needs to be there. So RG first, RT second. Center is third at highest. 

The priority should be upgrades, period. If they sign a center and and starting caliber tackle in free agency they can focus on a guard in rd 1. Or sign a guard and hope a tackle slides a bit. I don’t see them signing 3 free agent o lineman. I hope I’m wrong but I’ll take what whatever improvements we can get


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(02-25-2022, 04:22 PM)BenZoo2 Wrote: The priority should be upgrades, period.  If they sign a center and and starting caliber tackle in free agency they can focus on a guard in rd 1.  Or sign a guard and hope a tackle slides a bit.  I don’t see them signing 3 free agent o lineman.  I hope I’m wrong but I’ll take what whatever improvements we can get


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I agree. We don't know what direction they'll go in signing free agents, but we do know that the organization hasn't historically invested top dollar for guards. If Bozeman is a top target of theirs, he could be their only "big" signing, and it'd likely take $8-10M/year for 4 years. That's not to say they won't also sign other OL guys, but it could be a RG at $5M/year, Spain back on a 1 yr deal, and a RT for one year similar to Reiff's deal last year. 

(02-25-2022, 04:32 PM)Schmitbuck Wrote: I agree. We don't know what direction they'll go in signing free agents, but we do know that the organization hasn't historically invested top dollar for guards. If Bozeman is a top target of theirs, he could be their only "big" signing, and it'd likely take $8-10M/year for 4 years. That's not to say they won't also sign other OL guys, but it could be a RG at $5M/year, Spain back on a 1 yr deal, and a RT for one year similar to Reiff's deal last year. 

That really wouldn't be enough unless they really believe in Carmen. They really should be doing a Chiefs but instead of 2 tier A OL, shoot for 3-4 tier B for around the same value.

If it was me, I'd go for Tomlinson/Williams, Bozeman, and Colbert/Daniels. If you could sign Moses too, that would like be comp to Armstead/Scherff in cost but you improved the whole line instead of half of it. Plus all those I mentioned are relatively healthy so you don't have to worry as much about your depth.

(02-25-2022, 05:12 PM)WVUHomer Wrote: That really wouldn't be enough unless they really believe in Carmen. They really should be doing a Chiefs but instead of 2 tier A OL, shoot for 3-4 tier B for around the same value.

If it was me, I'd go for Tomlinson/Williams, Bozeman, and Colbert/Daniels. If you could sign Moses too, that would like be comp to Armstead/Scherff in cost but you improved the whole line instead of half of it. Plus all those I mentioned are relatively healthy so you don't have to worry as much about your depth.

I think the jury is still out with Carmann & Smith on whether they are future starters. I wouldn't count on either to start this year, but I could see having them compete for a spot in '23 if they do well as backups this year. It's partially why I think we'll see a staggered approach on the contract lengths. 

Tomlinson, Williams, Bozeman, and Daniels (not familiar with Colbert) have all been mentioned as guys that'll command $10M(ish)/year and are all looking at 3-4 year deals. As much as I'd like to see 3 of those guys getting signed, from a cap perspective, I don't see signing 3 guys like that being good long-term. You combined those with a possible Jonah extension and it's too much allocated to one position group. 

(02-25-2022, 06:02 PM)Schmitbuck Wrote: I think the jury is still out with Carmann & Smith on whether they are future starters. I wouldn't count on either to start this year, but I could see having them compete for a spot in '23 if they do well as backups this year. It's partially why I think we'll see a staggered approach on the contract lengths. 

Tomlinson, Williams, Bozeman, and Daniels (not familiar with Colbert) have all been mentioned as guys that'll command $10M(ish)/year and are all looking at 3-4 year deals. As much as I'd like to see 3 of those guys getting signed, from a cap perspective, I don't see signing 3 guys like that being good long-term. You combined those with a possible Jonah extension and it's too much allocated to one position group. 

Auto correct. Corbett. From the LAR RG.

(02-25-2022, 06:02 PM)Schmitbuck Wrote: I think the jury is still out with Carmann & Smith on whether they are future starters. I wouldn't count on either to start this year, but I could see having them compete for a spot in '23 if they do well as backups this year. It's partially why I think we'll see a staggered approach on the contract lengths. 

Tomlinson, Williams, Bozeman, and Daniels (not familiar with Colbert) have all been mentioned as guys that'll command $10M(ish)/year and are all looking at 3-4 year deals. As much as I'd like to see 3 of those guys getting signed, from a cap perspective, I don't see signing 3 guys like that being good long-term. You combined those with a possible Jonah extension and it's too much allocated to one position group. 

Every projection i see is 7-10. And I'm more for the 3-5 year deals on these OL. Continuity, good health, youthful. I see the value of an investment on those more than an Armstead or Scherff. And if you can get 3 for an average of 24/year, it allows you to sign other pieces (Bates, Uzo, etc.) while you can still plan on Jonah's future extension. But that's just my opinion.

(02-25-2022, 06:34 PM)WVUHomer Wrote: Every projection i see is 7-10. And I'm more for the 3-5 year deals on these OL. Continuity, good health, youthful. I see the value of an investment on those more than an Armstead or Scherff. And if you can get 3 for an average of 24/year, it allows you to sign other pieces (Bates, Uzo, etc.) while you can still plan on Jonah's future extension. But that's just my opinion.

I’d really like to see them sign Bozeman, Daniels and Moses. Or some similar type of combo. Moses may not be a 4-5 year investment but 2-3 years of him with the other guys would be a vast improvement. Smith would have that time to further develop. Carman and Spain could compete for lg


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(02-25-2022, 06:02 PM)Schmitbuck Wrote: Tomlinson, Williams, Bozeman, and Daniels (not familiar with Colbert) have all been mentioned as guys that'll command $10M(ish)/year and are all looking at 3-4 year deals. As much as I'd like to see 3 of those guys getting signed, from a cap perspective, I don't see signing 3 guys like that being good long-term. You combined those with a possible Jonah extension and it's too much allocated to one position group. 

It's not that much additional money over what the Bengals would pay if they kept the current starting line.  Hopkins for example is going to make 7.1 million this year if we keep him.  According to PFF, Bozeman's new contract should average 7 million per year.  That's close to a wash although there would be some dead cap space for cutting Hopkins. 

At LG Tomlinson is predicted to get 9 million per year while Spain is predicted to get about 5 million.  This means if you went out and signed both Tomlinson and Bozeman you would have a left to center line of Williams, Tomlinson and Bozeman for about 4 million more than a line of Williams, Spain, Hopkins. That is not a lot of money for a big improvement to the line.

At right tackle Reiff made 7.5 million last year and is predicted to make 7 million this year.  Morgan Moses is predicted to get about 7.5 million per year.  Again you are not talking that much of a difference.  If you also sign Moses you have now replaced 3 of last years starting line with better talent for only 4.5 million in additional spending over Spain, Hopkins and Reiff.

The one spot where you will see a big difference in money paid is RG which everyone agrees is the biggest area we need to fix anyway.   Adeniji will make about 1 million.  James Daniels will make about 10 million.  That adds an additional 9 million to the cap over having Adeniji but everyone agrees we need to do that anyway.  The question is do you not sign Tomlinson, Bozeman and Moses and add 4.5 million extra to the cap because James Daniels will add 9 million extra by himself?   When you look at the actual dollars being spent, signing those 3 other O-linemen wouldn't cost much more than if we roll with Spain, Hopkins and Reiff next year.  Replacing Adeniji will cost the most.

(02-25-2022, 11:16 AM)Joelist Wrote: This is a little puzzling. Center is nowhere near top of the need list. In order we need RG, RT, then C.

Did you just say "Center is nowhere near the top" and then list 3rd in our need list?

What do you consider near the top?

(02-25-2022, 02:56 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: We need them focused on being the missing piece for this team to win a ship  

Just watched Waynes World. Made me LOL seriously as it is funny, sad and true.

All aboard Bozeman as well as Jensen, Daniels or Ben Jones. All are more than fine with me.

The Bengals have been paying Trey Hopkins and hoping he'd earn the money ever since he wasn't a disaster in 2018. He's never performed at even an average level in the 8 years he's been here. I doubt the Bengals will cut him because he's still under contract, but do any of us think he'll earn the $6M he's signed for? The FA upgrades are there for the signing at the same or a minimal cost increase. You could even keep Trey Hiil if you're convinced he's the future. Pursuing a free agent center is a no-brainer for me.

(02-25-2022, 11:34 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Mentally, Guard is easier.  Physically, you need to be able to move large, aggressive men off the ball.  Hopkins is not good at moving large players off the ball.

I think that this is a bigger problem than some might think.  The Bengals are absolutely putrid in short yardage situations.  Hopkins is a decent pass blocker, but his ability to get push on those 4th and shorts is almost non existent.  

IMO this team needs a RG badly and has basically since Zeitler left.  RT is a close second.  However, tackles are really expensive, and slam dunk guards can be, too.  I'm not sure how many true RTs are out there to be had, and the 2 best candidates in Brown and Moses both seem to miss a lot of time, although Moses got through this past year pretty unscathed.  

With guards, Scherff is really expensive and likely not an option.  Daniels is my favorite FA target, and probably a bit less so.  After that, you're getting into guys who are solid but have some question marks ie Corbett, Norwell, and Williams.  

Both of these position groups' FA scenarios keep brining me back to looking at centers.  There are several available, and the position is in most cases less expensive than the other 2.  The team could get a top-end guy for a not-insane price and with it a major upgrade and likely improvement in short yardage.  They could, of course still upgrade elsewhere on the line along with this, but I feel like the most bang for their buck is at center.  

(02-26-2022, 05:42 AM)puddycat Wrote: The Bengals have been paying Trey Hopkins and hoping he'd earn the money ever since he wasn't a disaster in 2018. He's never performed at even an average level in the 8 years he's been here. I doubt the Bengals will cut him because he's still under contract, but do any of us think he'll earn the $6M he's signed for? The FA upgrades are there for the signing at the same or a minimal cost increase. You could even keep Trey Hiil if you're convinced he's the future. Pursuing a free agent center is a no-brainer for me.

That’s completely untrue. He’s the definition of average.

(02-26-2022, 12:28 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: That’s completely untrue. He’s the definition of average.

I only wish it were so.  Billie Price was a better center in 2021 than Hopkins.  Maybe you were spoiled by the play of Bodine and Price into thinking that Hopkins is average.  But opinions differ...

(02-26-2022, 06:04 PM)puddycat Wrote: I only wish it were so.  Billie Price was a better center in 2021 than Hopkins.  Maybe you were spoiled by the play of Bodine and Price into thinking that Hopkins is average.  But opinions differ...

Sure, if you’re judging Hopkins solely off the first half of the season when he clearly wasn’t back to 100%.