(03-08-2022, 11:37 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: WRs drafted at 20, 27, 34, 49, 56, 57, 59, 77, 82, 85, 89, and 91 didn’t match Boyd’s production.

Only three rookie WRs drafted in the first 3 rounds last year matched or exceeded Boyd’s production and one of them was drafted by the Bengals.

And your point is the WR3 had less production than WR1 and WR2 in Chase and Higgins? That’s a real news flash. I have a suspicion Wan’dale would have less production than those two, also.

"And your point is the WR3 had less production than WR1 and WR2 in Chase and Higgins? That’s a real news flash. I have a suspicion Wan’dale would have less production than those two, also."

Exactly my point, it isnt necessarily Boyds fault we have 2 superior receivers and he is underutilized as to his talent, it's his position, thus he is more valuable to us by providing a draft pick and his $10M than his 28 yds per game in the playoffs . (J24 credit on the stat)

Would you rather have had Boyd in the SB or a $10M RG and Trent Taylor in the slot?

(03-08-2022, 11:17 PM)casear2727 Wrote: If you are the Patriots you trade him at 6 years (now) for a draft pick and replace him with a much faster, younger version and save 9M.

Thats how they have operated... 

In your mock draft, you suggested trading him to Miami (I think) for a 2nd round pick (unrealistic)to draft a younger, cheaper WR-Wan’dale Robinson.

If any team needed a younger, cheaper WR and could draft him in the 2nd round why would they trade their 2nd round pick for an older, more expensive WR when they could just draft the younger, cheaper WR with their 2nd round pick?

Answer: They wouldn’t. That’s why it is unrealistic. It’s not a nah. It’s a HELL NAH!

(03-08-2022, 11:44 PM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: We aren’t just talking offense. We are talking the whole team. And how best to spend money under the salary cap to improve the overall team.

There are players that play less and make more. If you want to sign priority free agents at premier positions then there are other players you should release to have more cap space to make those signings.

Kinda the point.  Teams that are annual contenders must prioritize positions cash-wise as to the best chance to win games and to elite players on their teams.

Standard Winning Offense: QB, WR1, Oline, WR 2. This is us and the Rams, KC has TE and Slot as their 2 primary receivers they pay.  Rams nor KC pay their RBs.

Standard Winning Defense: DE, CB, DT  (then LB, FS, SS).   For us FS moves up to counter less than great CBs. 

Regardless, the priority positions should receive the maximum cash to the best players possible:
Offense to throw the ball down the field, protect he QB, provide holes for RB. 

For defense, stop the run, rush the passer, defend dangerous receivers.

Pretty simple.

You don't trade Boyd because he is one of the best slot WRs in the NFL and he is a football loving ultra competitor. And he has a reasonable contract.

(03-08-2022, 11:27 PM)J24 Wrote: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cincinnati.com/amp/8722843002

 This article explains why I would be confident in Morgan's starting ability. His blocking ability alone would fill a key role in this offense.

Of Course Morgan isn't going to outshine Boyd but that doesn't mean he can't help  fill his role.

Obviously it would take a committee to replace production that Boyd would give you.

A early draft pick ,Taylor, and Mike Thomas on top of Morgan could do the job.
We have 35 Million in cap it's not a ton of Cap space. Cutting Wayne's, Perine, Wilson, Hopkins, and trading Boyd would give around 70 Million in cap space.

As for the Browns game there is a lot of different variables that went on that make it hard to judge players. One Burrow wasn't playing and Two neither Chase or Higgins played that much.

A better example would be when Higgins missed two games earlier in the season and the offense didn't really miss a beat.


Why does  what Morgan did in college not matter? That's how we literally judge players before they get into the NFL.

Secondly the dude has proven to be one of the best Gunners in the NFL and the Bengals coaching staff has called him one of the best blocking WRs in the game. He's earned an opportunity for playing time

Is he a 1000 yard WR like Boyd? I don't think so but Could he be an elite Blocker(which is very important to this offense) and get between 400 and 500 yards. Yeah I think that's plausible. 
1 Morgan is getting reps(see article above) . He was the lead blocker on Mixons first TD in the regular season game against the Raiders for example.

Is Boyd still a big player in this offense? He averaged 28 yards a game(4th on team) in the playoffs and was a distant third in receiving yards during the regular season. Yeah Boyd is a good player but  his importance to this offense is less significant than it once was.

Also a good starting RG + top 100 draft pick or Boyd?

Comparing Wr Snaps to Defensive lineman snaps isn't really fair. Defensive line is a lot more physical position and takes a bigger toll on the body then a WR.

 

We were a play or two away from winning the Super Bowl with this team. We don’t need a ton of cap space to improve this team. Why ditch a guy who plays 75% of offensive snaps at a reasonable price creating a new hole that needs filled? Why fill that hole with some guys who can “do the job” when we have a legit starting WR that any team would Be lucky to have?

We have over $50 mil if we cut Waynes and Hopkins. Less if we keep Hopkins but then we also have one less o line spot to replace. We can bring back one of our DT’s, bring back apple or a better CB, and upgrade 2-3 spots on the O line fixing our biggest weakness. Why cut a starting WR and our ONLY WR depth after Tee/Chase that’s worth anything?

This team isn’t bad. We have enough cap space to fix our problems without cutting valuable contributors. There may come a time when it makes sense to do that. This is not that time. We should be ADDING to the AFC championship roster, not fixing one hole by creating a new one. That is not necessary with the cap we have. The best team we can roster going into 2022 will have Boyd at WR3.

(03-08-2022, 11:25 PM)casear2727 Wrote: I'll use better wording, Waynes being cut is a foregone conclusion, at least it better be or one of us needs to take over...

How many players have the Bengals released with $5M in dead money? Mike Brown hates dead money as much as you hate dropping the soap in prison. I’m assuming.

Quote:Help me out with what you are referencing before? I looked but Im not sure which part?  In all honesty Im curious as to your point.

OMG. It was staring you in the face because I literally quoted it and specifically mentioned getting rid of more expensive players in favor of signing players of equivalent quality for less money so the savings could be applied to other players and specifically suggested a signing a RG.

(03-09-2022, 12:05 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: How many players have the Bengals released with $5M in dead money? Mike Brown hates dead money as much as you hate dropping the soap in prison. I’m assuming.


OMG. It was staring you in the face because I literally quoted it and specifically mentioned getting rid of more expensive players in favor of signing players of equivalent quality for less money so the savings could be applied to other players and specifically suggested a signing a RG.

We actually save 10.8 cutting Waynes its a 15.8 deal - 10.8 savings - 5 in dead money. Why would you think that even Mike Brown could screw this up.

I still missed that quote you are referencing, maybe it was all that time in prison impacting my reading comprehension?

(03-08-2022, 11:27 PM)J24 Wrote: https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cincinnati.com/amp/8722843002

 This article explains why I would be confident in Morgan's starting ability. His blocking ability alone would fill a key role in this offense.

Of Course Morgan isn't going to outshine Boyd but that doesn't mean he can't help  fill his role.

Obviously it would take a committee to replace production that Boyd would give you.

A early draft pick ,Taylor, and Mike Thomas on top of Morgan could do the job.
We have 35 Million in cap it's not a ton of Cap space. Cutting Wayne's, Perine, Wilson, Hopkins, and trading Boyd would give around 70 Million in cap space.

As for the Browns game there is a lot of different variables that went on that make it hard to judge players. One Burrow wasn't playing and Two neither Chase or Higgins played that much.

A better example would be when Higgins missed two games earlier in the season and the offense didn't really miss a beat.


Why does  what Morgan did in college not matter? That's how we literally judge players before they get into the NFL.

Secondly the dude has proven to be one of the best Gunners in the NFL and the Bengals coaching staff has called him one of the best blocking WRs in the game. He's earned an opportunity for playing time

Is he a 1000 yard WR like Boyd? I don't think so but Could he be an elite Blocker(which is very important to this offense) and get between 400 and 500 yards. Yeah I think that's plausible. 
1 Morgan is getting reps(see article above) . He was the lead blocker on Mixons first TD in the regular season game against the Raiders for example.

Is Boyd still a big player in this offense? He averaged 28 yards a game(4th on team) in the playoffs and was a distant third in receiving yards during the regular season. Yeah Boyd is a good player but  his importance to this offense is less significant than it once was.

Also a good starting RG + top 100 draft pick or Boyd?

Comparing Wr Snaps to Defensive lineman snaps isn't really fair. Defensive line is a lot more physical position and takes a bigger toll on the body then a WR.

Won’t that make replacing their production with someone cheaper that much easier since they play less and thus contribute less?

(03-08-2022, 08:23 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: When Higgins is a free agent in 2 years...I don't see the Bengals paying him the $20 mill a year #1s get. We need Boyd.

Boyd will be close to 30? Not sure we want to pay boyd 12m, when you could pay Higgins 20. Mixon and boyd are gone in 2 years.

(03-08-2022, 11:45 PM)casear2727 Wrote: "And your point is the WR3 had less production than WR1 and WR2 in Chase and Higgins? That’s a real news flash. I have a suspicion Wan’dale would have less production than those two, also."

Exactly my point, it isnt necessarily Boyds fault we have 2 superior receivers and he is underutilized as to his talent, it's his position, thus he is more valuable to us by providing a draft pick and his $10M than his 28 yds per game in the playoffs . (J24 credit on the stat)

Would you rather have had Boyd in the SB or a $10M RG and Trent Taylor in the slot?

Complaining about the WR3 has less catches, yards, or TDs than WR2 and WR1 is like complaining the punter throws less TDs than the QB. Of course he does. That’s the nature of the job.

Boyd plays 74% of offensive snaps. As I have already explained, the Bengals can have Boyd, a $10m RG, trade Bates for an extra draft pick (Jets and Lions have extra picks, cap space, and a need for a S, and might be a willing trade partner), and draft someone like Hill, Cine, or Brisker, and Taylor stays on the bench. And they don’t have to draft an Olineman high hoping he is ready, healthy, or what to position to play him at entering his second season like Carman.

(03-09-2022, 12:24 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Boyd plays 74% of offensive snaps. As I have already explained, the Bengals can have Boyd, a $10m RG, trade Bates for an extra draft pick (Jets and Lions have extra picks, cap space, and a need for a S, and might be a willing trade partner), and draft someone like Hill, Cine, or Brisker, and Taylor stays on the bench. And they don’t have to draft an Olineman high hoping he is ready, healthy, or what to position to play him at entering his second season like Carman.

Percentage of snaps means nothing, its about production. 28 yds per playoff game is meh. Running wrong routes and dropping key passes in the SB sucks.

With our CBs I'd state without question that Bates is more important that Boyd right now.  Now if we for some reason pull in a JC Jackson as has been rumored, I will change that with let them both go and sign Marcus Maye to one year prove it deal while also drafting Cine or the others you mentioned,  I would add Joseph and Cross as well, along with a WR3.  Lets free up 23M with future studs.

(03-09-2022, 12:32 AM)casear2727 Wrote: Percentage of snaps means nothing, its about production. 28 yds per playoff game is meh. Running wrong routes and dropping key passes in the SB sucks.

With our CBs I'd state without question that Bates is more important that Boyd right now.  Now if we for some reason pull in a JC Jackson as has been rumored, I will change that with let them both go and sign Marcus Maye to one year prove it deal while also drafting Cine or the others you mentioned,  I would add Joseph and Cross as well, along with a WR3.  Lets free up 23M with future studs.

With  your propensity to disregard regular season performance and focus on playoffs; I'd assume you want to make Bates the highest paid Safety in the NFL. 

(03-08-2022, 11:56 PM)casear2727 Wrote: Kinda the point.  Teams that are annual contenders must prioritize positions cash-wise as to the best chance to win games and to elite players on their teams.

Standard Winning Offense: QB, WR1, Oline, WR 2. This is us and the Rams, KC has TE and Slot as their 2 primary receivers they pay.  Rams nor KC pay their RBs.

Standard Winning Defense: DE, CB, DT  (then LB, FS, SS).   For us FS moves up to counter less than great CBs. 

Regardless, the priority positions should receive the maximum cash to the best players possible:
Offense to throw the ball down the field, protect he QB, provide holes for RB. 

For defense, stop the run, rush the passer, defend dangerous receivers.

Pretty simple.

That completely ignores schemes such as OLB being more valuable in 3-4 compared to 4-3. It treats IOL the same as OTs. You treat all CBs as equal without acknowledging the importance of your NCB like Mike Hilton since offenses are using more multiple WR sets, and if your FS is more important because of poor CB play then don’t pay Top 5 safety money to an inconsistent FS who isn’t elite and instead us that money to improve your CB core because of . . . prioritizing positions. Like CBs > FS.

You don’t even follow your own advice.

(03-09-2022, 12:36 AM)bfine32 Wrote: With  your propensity to disregard regular season performance and focus on playoffs; I'd assume you want to make Bates the highest paid Safety in the NFL. 

Not at all.  Bates played like shit all season, but he did show up at the best time - I do prefer that over being great all season then choking in the Super Freaking Bowl.

I'd pay Bates 14M, which is much more than he deserved with his crap season, but I add in last season's performance plus the playoffs plus his age plus his intangibles minus his crybaby shit with worrying over his contract this season & his social media BS I think that is fair if it falls in line with our guaranteed money situation.

If not, I keep the tag on him and say play like the best safety in the NFL in 2022 and I'll pay you accordingly.

(03-09-2022, 12:10 AM)casear2727 Wrote: We actually save 10.8 cutting Waynes its a 15.8 deal - 10.8 savings - 5 in dead money. Why would you think that even Mike Brown could screw this up.

Why the **** do you think I wrote $5M in dead money if it is $5M in dead money?

Do you think it is because it is $5M in dead money?

What was the first thing that gave it away? Because it sure as hell wasn’t when I wrote, “$5M in dead money.”

Quote:I still missed that quote you are referencing, maybe it was all that time in prison impacting my reading comprehension?

I quoted it for you. And explained it again. I ain’t spending any more time helping you figure it out.

(03-09-2022, 12:40 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: That completely ignores schemes such as OLB being more valuable in 3-4 compared to 4-3. It treats IOL the same as OTs. You treat all CBs as equal without acknowledging the importance of your NCB like Mike Hilton since offenses are using more multiple WR sets, and if your FS is more important because of poor CB play then don’t pay Top 5 safety money to an inconsistent FS who isn’t elite and instead us that money to improve your CB core because of . . . prioritizing positions. Like CBs > FS.

You don’t even follow your own advice.

Pretty sure everyone acknowledges an elite 3-4 OLB (TJ watt) that can rush the passer as the same as a 4-3 DE. Stop getting caught up on semantics.

As far as bates go, the tag was the best, and most logical, decision. He clearly was the best defensive player (maybe best on the team) in the playoffs. You can’t just bank on letting him walk and using that money “somewhere else”. I understand his struggles in the regular season, but I think kicking the can down the road a year was a great decision.

Time will tell, but seriously… you have to be able to understand the point of being able to protect your qb to throw downfield, and then be able to bring pressure to rush the passer. If your arguing otherwise, it’s just for the sake of arguing

(03-09-2022, 12:40 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: That completely ignores schemes such as OLB being more valuable in 3-4 compared to 4-3. It treats IOL the same as OTs. You treat all CBs as equal without acknowledging the importance of your NCB like Mike Hilton since offenses are using more multiple WR sets, and if your FS is more important because of poor CB play then don’t pay Top 5 safety money to an inconsistent FS who isn’t elite and instead us that money to improve your CB core because of . . . prioritizing positions. Like CBs > FS.

You don’t even follow your own advice.

Nope I clearly stated that elite players must be considered, and I used Bates as an example as he has had flashes and potential.


"Teams that are annual contenders must prioritize positions cash-wise as to the best chance to win games and to elite players on their teams."  

 "For us FS moves up to counter less than great CBs."

If you dont think the NFL doesnt prioritize positions I advise you to research the top salaries of all players by position. Follow the money it prioritizes it very clearly.

Nice try though, well to be honest I actually expected better from you.

(03-09-2022, 12:01 AM)leonardfan40 Wrote: We were a play or two away from winning the Super Bowl with this team. We don’t need a ton of cap space to improve this team. Why ditch a guy who plays 75% of offensive snaps at a reasonable price creating a new hole that needs filled? Why fill that hole with some guys who can “do the job” when we have a legit starting WR that any team would Be lucky to have?


Yes we were a play or two away. Like in the redzone after the Awuzie interception on 3rd down our veteran 75% taker of snaps runs the wrong route causing a sack and forcing us to take a FG after CJ had cleared the path to the endzone... or maybe the play where our 10M WR3 dropped a crucial 3rd down pass late in the Super Bowl?


We have over $50 mil if we cut Waynes and Hopkins. Less if we keep Hopkins but then we also have one less o line spot to replace. We can bring back one of our DT’s, bring back apple or a better CB, and upgrade 2-3 spots on the O line fixing our biggest weakness. Why cut a starting WR and our ONLY WR depth after Tee/Chase that’s worth anything?


Why cant we draft a WR? Or sign one of the 5000 available that could easily average 28 yds a game? 

Depth in the event we lose Tee or Chase is the one valid argument I can agree with, but is it enough for $10M when we had 4 olinemen not making 9M combined?


This team isn’t bad. We have enough cap space to fix our problems without cutting valuable contributors. There may come a time when it makes sense to do that. This is not that time. We should be ADDING to the AFC championship roster, not fixing one hole by creating a new one. That is not necessary with the cap we have. The best team we can roster going into 2022 will have Boyd at WR3.


I can name 8 receivers in this draft that could easily average 28 yds per game for us. Boyd no longer brings to the table what he used to due to the other two receivers.  He could be much more valuable to another team and we could be better for it in the short and long term.  He will never have more value than right now, no one will want him next year with only one year left and then the next year he walks with zero in return.

(03-09-2022, 12:32 AM)casear2727 Wrote: Percentage of snaps means nothing, its about production. 28 yds per playoff game is meh. Running wrong routes and dropping key passes in the SB sucks.

With our CBs I'd state without question that Bates is more important that Boyd right now.  Now if we for some reason pull in a JC Jackson as has been rumored, I will change that with let them both go and sign Marcus Maye to one year prove it deal while also drafting Cine or the others you mentioned,  I would add Joseph and Cross as well, along with a WR3.  Lets free up 23M with future studs.

Passes? Plural? He dropped one all year.

And if the defensive line got a sack or the defense as a whole got a stop on 3rd down, the refs call defensive holding consistently, or the HC calls a different play on 3rd and 1 without the package he wants, or the front office doesn’t ask Gio to take a pay cut and roll with Perine instead, it might have ended differently.

You’re going to sign one FA safety and draft three more? And a WR3 in the 2nd round? You’re going to spend that much draft capital on a position you don’t think is important? That’s silly.

(03-09-2022, 12:48 AM)casear2727 Wrote: Not at all.  Bates played like shit all season, but he did show up at the best time - I do prefer that over being great all season then choking in the Super Freaking Bowl.

I'd pay Bates 14M, which is much more than he deserved with his crap season, but I add in last season's performance plus the playoffs plus his age plus his intangibles minus his crybaby shit with worrying over his contract this season & his social media BS I think that is fair if it falls in line with our guaranteed money situation.

If not, I keep the tag on him and say play like the best safety in the NFL in 2022 and I'll pay you accordingly.

And $14M/yr average would get you a Top 10 CB last season. You just complained about the Bengals CB play. Listed CBs as the second highest priority on defense ahead of safeties. And now you’re proposing over paying (by your own admission) a FS with Top 10 CB money instead of prioritizing the CBs against your own advice.