Go after Tretter. You have LT-LG-C-RG all shored up then.

I am still spooked by that MCL sprain Burrow got in the Super Bowl. Build him a wall.

(03-16-2022, 01:26 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Glad some of you guys are dishwashers and not GM’s. Look at all the really good players that got released today to get under the cap. Geez.

Exactly, free agency just started so let’s them a chance to make moves. I don’t believe we are done so let’s relax and be happy for the moves that were made already.

(03-16-2022, 09:47 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I agree.  I've always felt like it made the most sense to build a line from the inside first and work outward.  I get that in the modern game, so much emphasis is on edge rushers and protectors, but it seemed to me that right up the middle is where most teams penetrated to get after Burrow this season.  Not to mention putting a little backbone in the rushing attack would go miles toward keeping Burrow healthy and sharp.

RT is a serious need still, but like you said, there are many avenues toward finding the right fit at that position.

That's how the ACL tear happened.

(03-16-2022, 10:25 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: That's how the ACL tear happened.

Yes, and it really befuddles me that anyone would actually be alright with keeping Hopkins around.  The guy is dead weight, he can't move anyone in the running game and his pass protection is mediocre at best.

(03-16-2022, 07:26 AM)Cosmokramer Wrote: Man, it’s amazing how half you guys are already over Carman.  Dude was a rookie who was coming off back surgery.  He now has a full healthy off season and a little experience.

Don’t sit in this forum and think you know more than the guys getting paid to upgrade this team.

I doubt anyone is giving up on Carman, but we need to protect Joe today, not tomorrow.

(03-16-2022, 01:30 AM)BurrowTheGoat Wrote: I agree we need one or two more additions but this statement just isn't true.  If you look at PFF grades Hopkins= 51 Karras= 73.  That's a pretty big difference. 

The 73 grade is Karras at guard.  When he was center the previous 2 years before, his grade was in the low 50s which is right in line with Hopkins grade.

I'd guess Tretter signs with a team for somewhere around 3yr/$24M which is an $8M/yr average puts him at the fringe of the Top 10 for his position in the same zip code with Brian Allen and Ben Jones. Slightly less than Jason Kelce.

With a $12M signing bonus contract would look something like:

2022 $2M base salary/$4M prorated bonus/$6M cap hit (Actually less of a cap hit than Hopkins)
2023 $4M/$4m/$8M
2024 $6M/$4M/$10M (If he is released this year there is $4M in dead money which can be reduced to $2M/yr cap hit with post June 1 designation. Six million cap savings.)

(03-16-2022, 08:22 AM)CarolinaBengalFanGuy Wrote: I know Spain fell off late but I want to bring Spain back and if possible get Reiff back as a swing tackle. If we could get one more good lineman that would be great.

If we bring Spain back and bring Reiff back you are looking at the same level of play as this past season with the exception of Cappa.  As already mentioned, Karras play at center is about the same as Hopkins.   I dont think that is near enough to improve the O-line because not all the problems on the line were due to right guard play. Yes they fixed that one area but what about the rest?

I really hope the Bengals management dont think they have done enough to fix the problems with the O-line.  Like I said it is still very early and lots of things could happen but how many years has this line been bad and Bengals management thought they did enough to fix it, when it was clear to most of us fans the line was still a problem?  As of right now, it is still a problem.

I’m all for signing a placeholder RT to let our young guys develop. What if we already have the RT heir apparent on the team already? Wasn’t D’Ante Smith a RT coming out? A bit undersized and a raw prospect, just needed a couple years in an NFL strength and conditioning program? I’m saying, draftwise, maybe we don’t NEED to spend day 1 or day 2 picks on a tackle. I know he played well at LG in the preseason last year, but that spot is probably stout now, with Karras and Carman backing him up. I wouldn’t be shocked to see Smith get reps at RT during OTAs. And I wouldn’t be shocked if he showed out! I’m not saying start him this year, but if we can sign a placeholder vet, D’Ante could be our RT by 2023.

I wouldn't be shocked if they round out the line by bringing back Spain on a 1 year deal and then signing Daryl Williams. 

(03-16-2022, 10:56 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: I'd guess Tretter signs with a team for somewhere around 3yr/$24M which is an $8M/yr average puts him at the fringe of the Top 10 for his position in the same zip code with Brian Allen and Ben Jones. Slightly less than Jason Kelce.

With a $12M signing bonus contract would look something like:

2022 $2M base salary/$4M prorated bonus/$6M cap hit (Actually less of a cap hit than Hopkins)
2023 $4M/$4m/$8M
2024 $6M/$4M/$10M (If he is released this year there is $4M in dead money which can be reduced to $2M/yr cap hit with post June 1 designation. Six million cap savings.)

I could be wrong on this, but I thought Tretter is closer to Ryan Jensen in value but on a shorter contract because of being 31.

Just checked his PFF and he only allowed 1 sack each of the last 3 years. Wow.

(03-16-2022, 10:49 AM)007BengalsFan Wrote: The 73 grade is Karras at guard.  When he was center the previous 2 years before, his grade was in the low 50s which is right in line with Hopkins grade.

Everyone that changes position does not automatically get better.  So his improved grade could very well be based on improved blocking.  Or are you claiming that if we moved Hopkins to OG he would get a rating in the 70's?

Plus PFF rankings are not very accurate.  We see that a lot with other positions where there are other stats to show the flaws in PFF ratings.  But since O-linemen don't have other stats some people treat PFF like the gospel truth.  

(03-16-2022, 11:12 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Everyone that changes position does not automatically get better.  So his improved grade could very well be based on improved blocking.

Plus PFF rankings are not very accurate.  We see that a lot with other positions where there are other stats to show the flaws in PFF ratings.  But since O-linemen don't have other stats some people treat PFF like the gospel truth.  

Its this.

Ted Karras first year with high percentage of snaps was 2019 at Center for the Patriots. He then went to Miami and played Center and you could see the difference between year 1 and 2. This past year he came back to the Patriots and you could see how well he has developed in year 3 especially as a pass blocker. He has developed in a very technically sound player while he isnt going to blow guys off the ball as a run blocker he doesnt allow negative plays. 

His improvement hasn't been about changing positions it's been about improving through snaps and experience.

A lot of good OT out there and today is the first day you can sign players. We most likely want to get some contracts signed. It would be smart to not be the first team to sign a tackle let the market get set then come in a scoop your guy up.

(03-16-2022, 11:12 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Everyone that changes position does not automatically get better.  

Not only that but... WHY do teams constantly ask OL-man to change positions?  They don't ask WR's to play DB,  They don't ask QB's to play LB, etc.  These guys spend their entire careers playing mostly ONE position, then they get to the NFL... the HIGHEST level, and they're asked to switch?
That seems like a recipe for a skill-decline, to me.

(03-16-2022, 10:59 AM)007BengalsFan Wrote: If we bring Spain back and bring Reiff back you are looking at the same level of play as this past season with the exception of Cappa.  As already mentioned, Karras play at center is about the same as Hopkins.   I dont think that is near enough to improve the O-line because not all the problems on the line were due to right guard play. Yes they fixed that one area but what about the rest?

I really hope the Bengals management dont think they have done enough to fix the problems with the O-line.  Like I said it is still very early and lots of things could happen but how many years has this line been bad and Bengals management thought they did enough to fix it, when it was clear to most of us fans the line was still a problem?  As of right now, it is still a problem.

It's not. If people keep lookings at grades only, you're not getting anywhere near the real picture. Karras' pass block efficiency is higher and pressure numbers are significantly lower than Hop's. 

At Center in 2020, Karras; 1,068 snaps, 2 sacks, 1 hit, 8 hurries, 11 pressures for a 99.0 PBE. 
At Center in 2021, Hopkins; 1,185 snaps, 5 sacks, 3 hits, 14 hurries, 22 pressures for a 98.1 PBE. 

I'm not sure what the win rate's are between them. Hopefully someone else can post this.

(03-16-2022, 11:06 AM)Schmitbuck Wrote: I could be wrong on this, but I thought Tretter is closer to Ryan Jensen in value but on a shorter contract because of being 31.

Just checked his PFF and he only allowed 1 sack each of the last 3 years. Wow.

And you may be right.

I agree. More needs to be done. Hopefully something is going on behind the scenes. Nothing we can do but wait (and unfortunately watch favorite targets get signed by other teams including those in the AFCN).

(03-16-2022, 11:24 AM)Tomkat Wrote: Not only that but... WHY do teams constantly ask OL-man to change positions?  They don't ask WR's to play DB,  They don't ask QB's to play LB, etc.  These guys spend their entire careers playing mostly ONE position, then they get to the NFL... the HIGHEST level, and they're asked to switch?
That seems like a recipe for a skill-decline, to me.

So, is my whimsical thought of drafting Daniel Faalele for RT and having himself declared as an eligible receiver in goal line situations possibly detrimental ?
 

(03-15-2022, 11:40 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: I know it is still very early and lots of things can happen but if the Bengals dont make any more moves to improve the O-line other than sign Cappa and Karras the O-line will have issues again next season. While Karras is good as a guard he is not as good at center. His previous two years at center he played at about the same level as Hopkins so having Karras at center doesnt upgrade what we already have with Hopkins. Cappa is a big upgrade from Adeniji no doubt but if Cappa is the only upgrade on the O-line and every other position plays at the same level, Burrow is going to take a beating again. The Bengals need to do more to fix the O-line.

The Bengals have lots of financial room to bring in more line talent and why wouldn’t they? These two guys add to competitive contests to get a better line, at least two positions will guaranteed to be improved. C & RT are still question marks in my mind. No doubt the bengals will be spending to address it.
Today the Bengals are positioned much better on the line than they were on February 13, 2022.