(03-15-2022, 04:53 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I'm not as keen on cutting Waynes as everyone else. I'd see if he's willing to restructure. We've already given him 2 years of pay for nothing. We're not getting that back. If we could spread out the cap and keep him that would be better IMO.

The only way he can "restructure" is by extending him since this is his last year under contract, and extending him would be insanity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escalation_of_commitment

Waynes gotta go. Dude was healthy at the end of the season and was still on the bench. He has the 9th highest cap hit among CBs in 2022.

(03-15-2022, 07:20 PM)Stewy Wrote: What has Waynes shown you, that you want to keep him.  You aren't the first person with this take, so I'm honestly curious.

It isn't so much about what Waynes has shown but about the fact we don't have a replacement.  Line up the replacement 1st, then cut him.  That way we aren't starting Jalen Davis if we whiff in FA & don't have to reach in the draft. 

I mean, we do not have 3 CB's better than him on the roster. We are not over the cap. We do not need the money at the moment. Until we need the money and have a replacement lined up, don't cut him.  

 I wouldn't cut Adeniji until we have 4 better guards. I wouldn't cut Prince until we have 4 better tackles. It is not terribly complicated. Now, Waynes has a bigger price tag, but ATM, we don't need the money. Until we do, I would not think about it. 

As for Waynes, trying to play in the middle of last year after 1.5 years out, he looked rusty.  As one would expect.  With more reps and PT, I think he'd look better. He has at least proven he could play at a starter level in the league. 

Waynes will be cut. But cuts will be made when others are signed to fill the slots.

(03-15-2022, 05:08 PM)casear2727 Wrote: WHAT???


Put a top lineman on a prove it deal?  How insane is this?   A prove it deal is for players coming off an injury or back to back poor production seasons with another team.  Not a top player who is financial trade or cut.

If the guy has more issues other than the 2 yr old test incident that we dont know about then I can get on board, otherwise this is beyond silly.

A top lineman with some history. The one year prove it gives you guard rails for his history of injury and suspension. Doesn’t mean he’d take it however Ogunjobi it sure worked for in Cincy.

(03-16-2022, 10:49 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: A top lineman with some history. The one year prove it gives you guard rails for his history of injury and suspension. Doesn’t mean he’d take it however Ogunjobi it sure worked for in Cincy.

No comparison to Ogunjobi - he had down years.  Collins hasnt, this is silly. I believe the Cowboys asking price is higher than people are thinking.

(03-15-2022, 12:57 PM)Bengalpool Wrote: I know Bozeman is younger, but Tretter fits our mold much better. Scheme fit, high character, CONSISTENT, great pass blocker, good run blocker, glass eater and the cherry on TOP.......

His first name is initials. Fred is drooling so much right now, we may have to build an ark.

Yes, he fits better than Bozeman, Tretter and Daryl Williams to fill out the OL and we are in bidness.

(03-15-2022, 08:46 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: The only way he can "restructure" is by extending him since this is his last year under contract, and extending him would be insanity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escalation_of_commitment

Waynes gotta go. Dude was healthy at the end of the season and was still on the bench. He has the 9th highest cap hit among CBs in 2022.

Waynes may restructure for a break for us. His alternative would be to bank on getting someone to pay him 11 million dollars in 2022. I don't think that is likely as CB market seems to be down a bit so far for 2nd or 3rd tier starters. He has shown nothing good on tape for 2 years so he would likely get 4 to 5 million on 1 year prove it deal from another team with 50% guaranteed tops

I think he would be smart to get his agent to restructure a 3 year deal with 12 million guaranteed for 14 or 15 million deal. 

(03-16-2022, 05:34 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Waynes may restructure for a break for us. His alternative would be to bank on getting someone to pay him 11 million dollars in 2022. I don't think that is likely as CB market seems to be down a bit so far for 2nd or 3rd tier starters. He has shown nothing good on tape for 2 years so he would likely get 4 to 5 million on 1 year prove it deal from another team with 50% guaranteed tops

I think he would be smart to get his agent to restructure a 3 year deal with 12 million guaranteed for 14 or 15 million deal. 

Restructuring just means you're paying the guy the game amount. I don't want Waynes at $15m in 2022, I don't want Waynes at $10m in 2022. I don't want Waynes. They have the best possible restructure of cutting him and saving $10.8m right there.

The $5m cap hit is going to happen regardless. He already got that money so you can't include that in a restructure. So 3yr/$14-15m deal cap-wise means you're signing up for $19-20m in cap hits for Trae Waynes over the next three years, $17m of it guaranteed so you have no possible out. Why would you possibly throw good money after bad? It was a bad signing. Don't keep throwing money into that pit. Move on.

(03-16-2022, 05:51 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Restructuring just means you're paying the guy the game amount. I don't want Waynes at $15m in 2022, I don't want Waynes at $10m in 2022. I don't want Waynes. They have the best possible restructure of cutting him and saving $10.8m right there.

The $5m cap hit is going to happen regardless. He already got that money so you can't include that in a restructure. So 3yr/$14-15m deal cap-wise means you're signing up for $19-20m in cap hits for Trae Waynes over the next three years, $17m of it guaranteed so you have no possible out. Why would you possibly throw good money after bad? It was a bad signing. Don't keep throwing money into that pit. Move on.

Wrong, you said yourself if we cut him we lost the 5 million. So remove it from the equation, it is already paid.

I am saying sign him for 3 years guaranteeing him say 10 million. Why would he do it, he would do it because he is not guaranteed 4 million in 2022. Why would we do it, because we could convert it to 9 million in year 1 signing bonus, then pay him 4 million in 2023 and 4 million in 2024.

Cap hit goes from almost 11 million in 2022 to 3 million so save 8 million. In 2023 cap hit is 7 million, but only 1 million if we cut him. 7 million in 2024 but no dead cap if we cut him.

Is there another starting CB we could get for this price? No there is not. If he gets back to being healthy and playing well we keep him and have a good CB on a very reasonable deal. If not, we cut him and lose nothing since we were going to pay him 11 million in 2022.

Simply we are asking him to take a pay cut to be guaranteed most of his 2022 salary. I am not saying we should not cut him, but if they decide to not cut him, this would be my approach to him if I was the team GM.

(03-16-2022, 06:28 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Wrong, you said yourself if we cut him we lost the 5 million. So remove it from the equation, it is already paid.

I am saying sign him for 3 years guaranteeing him say 10 million. Why would he do it, he would do it because he is not guaranteed 4 million in 2022. Why would we do it, because we could convert it to 9 million in year 1 signing bonus, then pay him 4 million in 2023 and 4 million in 2024.

Cap hit goes from almost 11 million in 2022 to 3 million so save 8 million. In 2023 cap hit is 7 million, but only 1 million if we cut him. 7 million in 2024 but no dead cap if we cut him.

Is there another starting CB we could get for this price? No there is not. If he gets back to being healthy and playing well we keep him and have a good CB on a very reasonable deal. If not, we cut him and lose nothing since we were going to pay him 11 million in 2022.

Simply we are asking him to take a pay cut to be guaranteed most of his 2022 salary. I am not saying we should not cut him, but if they decide to not cut him, this would be my approach to him if I was the team GM.

Those numbers don't add up. You can't guarantee a guy $10m, pay him $3m in Year 1, and then only have $1m dead cap if you cut him in Year 2. That would be $4m in guaranteed money, not $10m. Where's the other $6m vanishing to? When you cut a guy, that $9m signing bonus still needs to be paid through a cap hit and you've only done 1/3rd of it. In your scenario, if you convert $9m of it into a signing bonus you'd have at least a $6m dead cap hit if you cut him after 2022 (and a minimum of ~$4m or so in 2021, he has to make the vet min which is ~$1m as a base salary, and then $3m as 1/3rd of the $9m signing bonus).

Not to mention we do lose something if it falls through. We lose the opportunity to sign a CB who is less of a gamble. That is a huge something. We're not the 2018 Bengals who are just gambling on maybe we find a good player cheap but if not so what no biggie. The 2022 Bengals are aiming for a Super Bowl. So the "if not" is actually then you have Jalen Davis as your starting CB on a team with SB aspirations. That is a huge loss. Now is not the time to be gambling on guys who haven't played productive football since 2019, that's what you do when you're not trying for a Lombardi.


Your plan: $9m cap hit this year, see if he is any good, if he's not take another $6m in cap hits in 2023 for him to not play for you.
Cutting him: $5m cap hit this year, sign someone else.

(03-16-2022, 06:51 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Those numbers don't add up. You can't guarantee a guy $10m, pay him $3m in Year 1, and then only have $1m dead cap if you cut him in Year 2. That would be $4m in guaranteed money, not $10m. Where's the other $6m vanishing to? When you cut a guy, that $9m signing bonus still needs to be paid through a cap hit and you've only done 1/3rd of it. In your scenario, if you convert $9m of it into a signing bonus you'd have at least a $6m dead cap hit if you cut him after 2022 (and a minimum of ~$4m or so in 2021, he has to make the vet min which is ~$1m as a base salary, and then $3m as 1/3rd of the $9m signing bonus).

Not to mention we do lose something if it falls through. We lose the opportunity to sign a CB who is less of a gamble. That is a huge something. We're not the 2018 Bengals who are just gambling on maybe we find a good player cheap but if not so what no biggie. The 2022 Bengals are aiming for a Super Bowl. So the "if not" is actually then you have Jalen Davis as your starting CB on a team with SB aspirations. That is a huge loss. Now is not the time to be gambling on guys who haven't played productive football since 2019, that's what you do when you're not trying for a Lombardi.


Your plan: $9m cap hit this year, see if he is any good, if he's not take another $6m in cap hits in 2023 for him to not play for you.
Cutting him: $5m cap hit this year, sign someone else.

9 million bonus in year one paid out is then spread out over 3 years so in 2022, yes only 3 million cap hit versus 11 million. The issue for us would come in year 2 with dead money if we cut him, we would have 1 million in dead money, but would have reached the 10 million guarantee which is less than the 11 million we would have paid him in 2022. Yep, he takes a pay cut or loses almost 11 million in 2022 from us. How much in 2022 do you think Waynes could get on the open market in 2022? I say no more than 3 to 4 million guaranteed from another team

(03-16-2022, 08:25 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: 9 million bonus in year one paid out is then spread out over 3 years so in 2022, yes only 3 million cap hit versus 11 million. The issue for us would come in year 2 with dead money if we cut him, we would have 1 million in dead money, but would have reached the 10 million guarantee which is less than the 11 million we would have paid him in 2022. Yep, he takes a pay cut or loses almost 11 million in 2022 from us. How much in 2022 do you think Waynes could get on the open market in 2022? I say no more than 3 to 4 million guaranteed from another team

?

The $9m bonus is paid immediately but yes the cap hit is spread out over 3 years. You also have to pay the guy a base salary by CBA requirements. That would be ~$1m to go with the 1/3rd of the signing bonus, for a $4m cap hit, not 3.

Also if you cut a guy the signing bonus cap hits don't vanish. So if you cut after year 1, you now need to pay the 2023 and 2024 cap hits for the bonus immediately in 2023. So it would be $6m in dead cap in 2023, not $1m.

I'm not sure what math you're doing to get at $1m dead cap in 2023, but I assure you that's not how signing bonuses and cutting people work.

The deal you want and have describes, Waynes would have a $9m cap hit in 2022 and then a $6m cap hit in 2023 if he is cut.... vs just a $5m cap hit if he's cut right now without the deal.

Hope Tretter is still a possibility as well. He fits what we need so we can move Karras to LG while adding Daryl Williams
to fill out the OL in spectacular fashion in freeing up the Draft. Jonah-Karras-Tretter-Cappa-Daryl

It makes me nervous when this thread jumps up in this forum. Fear he has signed somewhere.

(03-17-2022, 01:55 PM)jj22 Wrote: It makes me nervous when this thread jumps up in this forum. Fear he has signed somewhere.

I hope we have both Daryl Williams and JC Tretter signing soon as future Bengals.

Sorry, getting ancy here without hearing any moves.

Still need to make this happen.

Kinda shocked he hasn't been snatched up yet.

I'm not sure this has been said, but his dad has been liking Bengals posts on twitter. Don't read too much into this, he'll occasionally like other posts from fans of other teams like the Vikings.

It sounds like him being the NFLPA president is causing his market to be slow. I've also read that the Browns weren't happy with him missing a lot of practice time last year that there may be locker room concerns.

(03-18-2022, 09:21 AM)Schmitbuck Wrote: It sounds like him being the NFLPA president is causing his market to be slow. I've also read that the Browns weren't happy with him missing a lot of practice time last year that there may be locker room concerns.

I'll take what that joke of a FO has to say and leak with less than a grain of salt.