(04-07-2022, 03:40 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Carman was actually decent when he played some snaps at LG. And he was still better than Adeniji at RG too.
Not someone you can be confident will be solid-or-better starter though, for sure.

Also, you bring up 56.4 PFF grade being "garbage." That's not considered garbage nowadays. Or at least when comparing to the rest of the league.
Only 52 OGs had a 60+ grade. That means below 60 is still considered starter-level.

Last, let's break down the PFF grades Carman had at LG vs RG:
LG (103 snaps) - 74.2 run block, 64.3 pass block, 2 pressures, 2 penalties
RG (377 snaps) - 59.7 run block, 40.2 pass block, 17 pressures, 4 penalties, 5 QB hits

Yes, only 103 snaps at LG, so you can speculate that with more snaps he'd trend downward closer to what he did at RG, but the PFF data does indicate he'd be better at LG than RG.

If he performed all year like he did in his 103 LG snaps, he'd be 15th among all qualified guards in run block, 38th among all qualified guards in pass block.
That's solid-or-better, for sure.

I'm cautiously optimistic he'll be better at LG, but I would prefer Spain (or someone better) added in FA just in case.

If Carman is healthy, he will be at worst an average NFL LG. If he's average and your weakest link, you have a pretty good line. 

I think we need to re-sign Spain and draft a couple OL.

Yes he is.

(04-08-2022, 12:45 AM)EatonFan Wrote: I think we need to re-sign Spain and draft a couple OL.

Agreed.
Re-sign Spain and then draft one OT and IOL.
Ideally, the IOL could play C to compete with Trey Hill for backup C spot.

(04-07-2022, 04:54 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: Lmao what else are people supposed to base his play off of? He’s only played 1 year in the NFL

I guess I’m a full blown reetard for looking at his garbage rookie year,  which included chronic back issues

durrrr

Here is a little hint.

Look around at every other NFL team.

Tell me how many of them give up on a second round pick after his rookie season.

The problem is you just don't understand how this works.  Many first round pick and most second round picks do not even start or play as rookies.  If every team thought like you then they would constantly be draft guys to replace the guy they took int he second round the year before.

And that just does not happen in the NFL.  People who understand the NFL realize this.

(04-08-2022, 12:45 AM)EatonFan Wrote: I think we need to re-sign Spain and draft a couple OL.

(04-08-2022, 09:24 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Agreed.
Re-sign Spain and then draft one OT and IOL.
Ideally, the IOL could play C to compete with Trey Hill for backup C spot.

How many OL are you guys going to carry on the 53, 12?

OL is a position you have to draft and develop now.  Rookie quality starters are few and far between.  If you're going to draft over every rookie OL that doesn't immediately impress, you're just going to be constantly wasting draft picks and not really doing anything to improve the team.  You're going to be cutting cheap depth when you are going to need those cheap contracts at other positions when Burrow gets paid.  

(04-08-2022, 09:24 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Agreed.
Re-sign Spain and then draft one OT and IOL...

Im not sure why so many of our fans want to bring Spain back.  He had a 46 PFF for the entire playoffs and was part of the reason we lost the Super Bowl.   We should look to improve the line, not go back to the same guys that helped lose the Super Bowl.

(04-08-2022, 11:00 AM)Whatever Wrote: If you're going to draft over every rookie OL that doesn't immediately impress, you're just going to be constantly wasting draft picks and not really doing anything to improve the team. 

Rep.

(04-08-2022, 10:50 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Here is a little hint.

Look around at every other NFL team.

Tell me how many of them give up on a second round pick after his rookie season.

The problem is you just don't understand how this works.  Many first round pick and most second round picks do not even start or play as rookies.  If every team thought like you then they would constantly be draft guys to replace the guy they took int he second round the year before.

And that just does not happen in the NFL.  People who understand the NFL realize this.

I’ve said repeatedly that Spain should be re-signed so Carman can have some legit competition.

He has back problems too, so if Carman wins the job, Spain would be an ideal back up

(04-08-2022, 10:50 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Here is a little hint.

Look around at every other NFL team.

Tell me how many of them give up on a second round pick after his rookie season.

The problem is you just don't understand how this works.  Many first round pick and most second round picks do not even start or play as rookies.  If every team thought like you then they would constantly be draft guys to replace the guy they took int he second round the year before.

And that just does not happen in the NFL.  People who understand the NFL realize this.

we shouldnt give up on Carman yet... But we should have competition and a solid plan B

(04-08-2022, 11:00 AM)Whatever Wrote: How many OL are you guys going to carry on the 53, 12?

OL is a position you have to draft and develop now.  Rookie quality starters are few and far between.  If you're going to draft over every rookie OL that doesn't immediately impress, you're just going to be constantly wasting draft picks and not really doing anything to improve the team.  You're going to be cutting cheap depth when you are going to need those cheap contracts at other positions when Burrow gets paid.  

10.

Williams, Collins, Karras, Cappa, and Carman would all have guaranteed spots.
Spain would also have a spot if signed.
That would leave 4 depth spots to be fought for between Adeniji, Prince, Smith, Hill, and two draft picks.

And I said nothing about moving on from Carman so quickly. I just want insurance in case he doesn't perform well or has another injury. Because I'm not ready to give up on him yet, I don't want to invest a Rd 1 or Rd 2 pick for an OG. The players I mainly don't have faith in right now are Adeniji, Prince, and Hill. I think Adeniji was misplaced at RG though. He's better outside. Prince is straight bad. Never really cared for Hill even through the draft process. In my ideal scenario, new mid-round OT would bump Prince off the roster and a new Day 3 OC would possibly bump off Hill.

(04-08-2022, 12:36 PM)007BengalsFan Wrote: Im not sure why so many of our fans want to bring Spain back.  He had a 46 PFF for the entire playoffs and was part of the reason we lost the Super Bowl.   We should look to improve the line, not go back to the same guys that helped lose the Super Bowl.

That's why I wouldn't hand him a starting spot. He'd have to compete with Carman for it.
With that said, I'd love to bring in a better FA OG than Spain, but there aren't many more available that would be a true upgrade.
Maybe Ereck Flowers or Trai Turner? That's about it from the list of available guys.

(04-08-2022, 10:50 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Here is a little hint.

Look around at every other NFL team.

Tell me how many of them give up on a second round pick after his rookie season.

The problem is you just don't understand how this works.  Many first round pick and most second round picks do not even start or play as rookies.  If every team thought like you then they would constantly be draft guys to replace the guy they took int he second round the year before.

And that just does not happen in the NFL.  People who understand the NFL realize this.

Exactly this. It's ok to have another stopgap as insurance for Carman, but it's too early to invest another early-round draft pick to replace Carman. The new rookie could end up playing even worse than Carman.

It wasn't like Carman was some terrible pick. He was just wasn't going to be able to play the spot he played in college - LT. Plus, he was coming off a back injury. Bengals clearly felt he'd get past the injury at some point and had the talent to be able to succeed somewhere on the OL, otherwise they wouldn't have invested such an early-round pick in him.

(04-08-2022, 10:50 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Here is a little hint.

Look around at every other NFL team.

Tell me how many of them give up on a second round pick after his rookie season.

The problem is you just don't understand how this works.  Many first round pick and most second round picks do not even start or play as rookies.  If every team thought like you then they would constantly be draft guys to replace the guy they took int he second round the year before.

And that just does not happen in the NFL.  People who understand the NFL realize this.

Here is a little hint for you. How many of those guys failed anyway? And the team ended up wasting time on them. How many players go from a 55 grade to a 80? It can happen sure but is very rare. 

Why is this so hard to comprehend? I am not advocating cutting him. He could make a dramatic improvement and earn the starting job. We have 5 OL spots. We need good players for depth. 

I am not going to waste my time going through teams and showing you how many may draft a O lineman despite drafting one the year before. This is not a QB. Again there are 5 of them.  But please tell us how it works Fred. Lmao. Get over yourself bro you know just as much as everyone else

Easy Question for you all

When comparing to the rest of our Line Is Carman a liability or an asset on our starting unit RIGHT NOW? That is in caps cause I don't want to hear about what he could be.

(04-08-2022, 06:25 PM)CloeHokie Wrote: Easy Question for you all

When comparing to the rest of our Line Is Carman a liability or an asset on our starting unit RIGHT NOW? That is in caps cause I don't want to hear about what he could be.

Fred just wants to pull arguments out his anus. There’s no point in engaging with him

Carman should have to earn the LG spot. Preferably against Spain

(04-08-2022, 06:25 PM)CloeHokie Wrote: Easy Question for you all

When comparing to the rest of our Line Is Carman a liability or an asset on our starting unit RIGHT NOW? That is in caps cause I don't want to hear about what he could be.

Right now he’s rating very highly. Hasn’t give up a sack or even a QB pressure. 
You mean what was he like in the past I take it?

(04-08-2022, 06:25 PM)CloeHokie Wrote: Easy Question for you all

When comparing to the rest of our Line Is Carman a liability or an asset on our starting unit RIGHT NOW? That is in caps cause I don't want to hear about what he could be.

Unless the Bengals can land Zion Johnson or maybe Kenyon Green, I wouldn't have any confidence in a draft pick coming in and being better than Carman from Day 1.
Both Green and Johnson are projected to go before Pick 31 though.

There really aren't many upgrades in FA remaining either. There really isn't anyone better option than Spain right now.

(04-08-2022, 06:47 PM)wanga Wrote: Right now he’s rating very highly. Hasn’t give up a sack or even a QB pressure. 
You mean what was he like in the past I take it?

Lmao. To judge a player now you must look at what he has done up to now. Not what he might do or what we hope he can become. 

(04-08-2022, 07:03 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Unless the Bengals can land Zion Johnson or maybe Kenyon Green, I wouldn't have any confidence in a draft pick coming in and being better than Carman from Day 1.
Both Green and Johnson are projected to go before Pick 31 though.

There really aren't many upgrades in FA remaining either. There really isn't anyone better option than Spain right now.

Agree. And 90% of mocks I do have one of those guys falling to us. If they do not no way I reach on one there. 

At the same time 90% of them do not have a top CB falling or one of the DTs aside from Jones who is a NT


If the CBs and those 2 OGs are gone I hope we trade back. Cause I don't want to draft the 83rd ranked CB at 31