(05-05-2022, 09:47 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Perhaps you're unsure what stats or proof are. The answer is the proof.  

So if test results go up you can determine if the increase is due to "nature" or "nurture" just by showing that the test results went up?

I still can't follow that logic.

(05-05-2022, 11:23 AM)fredtoast Wrote: So if test results go up you can determine if the increase is due to "nature" or "nurture" just by showing that the test results went up?

I still can't follow that logic.

I realize no amount of "proof" is going to have you concede your incorrect point. The culture has changed and therefore made this Bengals team much better. We've gone from selfish players such as Carlos Dunlap to players like Trey Hendrickson who is so exhausted on the sidelines that he has to use the kicking net to keep himself upright on the sidelines. We've gone from the likes of leaders such as Vontaze Burfict and Pacman Jones to Vonn Bell and Mike Hilton 

In only 3 years Zac has taken this team to places that they have only been to twice before in their previous 51 years. If culture doesn't matter and only wins and loses then why did Jon Gruden get fired or Urban Meyer given less than 1 year? 

I don't think there are any absolutes.  For example it isn't all about talent and it isn't all about building a certain culture.  It is a good mix of both.  Building a highly talented team takes time.  Instilling a certain type of culture in a team also takes time.  Usually neither can be done over night or even in a year.  

For example I've worked in places where if things were going down hill they would bring in someone and have a day of "team building exercises".  The only thing that accomplished was wasting everyone's time and wasting money.  A day of team building does nothing if there are a few rotten apples on the team.  The people that care about their performance didn't need it and the slackers didn't change from a day of "team building".  Things only improved over time when the slackers were weeded out and it took awhile to get there.

From what I understand Zac seems to value a certain type of player.  Not only a talented player but also a player that exhibits leadership.  It seems to me he likes players that were team captains and players with reputations of showing character on the field and in the locker room.  Is that culture building?  Maybe.  But one thing I noticed last season during some tough games like the games against the Chiefs is that even when things looked bad the players never gave up.   It seems in the past those were games the Bengals would lose because in my opinion they looked like they gave up or start making a lot of mental mistakes.

Is Zac some super coach that has unlocked some great secret by valuing culture over talent?  No.  Do I think he is building a team based on talent and players that fit into his vision?  Yes.  Does this mean he is going to be a great coach?  Time will tell.  With only one amazing season under his belt he still has a lot to prove.

But again on the argument of culture.  It takes time to build a team around that vision.  Just like it takes time to build a talented team (unless you do like the Rams and trade away tons of draft picks for talent) .  So I don't think it is fair to say, "Well how did that culture work out his first two seasons when he only won 6 games?"    The Bengals are only 3.5 years into building around both talent and Zac's vision.  In that 3rd year they went to the Super Bowl.  Now we will see how talent and Zac's push for a certain culture plays out this year and if the success continues.

Edit:  It also certainly helps that the Bengals front office has started placing more value on free agency.  I don't know if that is due to Zac being the coach or having drafted Burrow and wanting to put the best team around him as possible given his level of talent. 

(05-05-2022, 08:56 AM)fredtoast Wrote: You do not even understand the debate.

It is like the argument about student test results being more influenced by "nature" or "nurture".  You can't answer that question just by repeating the test results.  That proves nothing.

It's funny how the guy that is always arguing "show me the stats" "lets see the results" is now trying to argue the results/stats don't matter.

Like Bfine said

Mic drop

(05-05-2022, 10:23 AM)Frank Booth Wrote: Ken Anderson isn’t going to come out and say publicly that he disapproves of the new bengals head coach during his first season

C‘mon now

He noticed some positive things about the culture. If he didn’t feel that way he just wouldn’t say anything. He wasn’t prompted.

(05-05-2022, 12:39 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: It's funny how the guy that is always arguing "show me the stats" "lets see the results" is now trying to argue the results/stats don't matter.

Like Bfine said

Mic drop

So can someone please explain to me how just showing the team record proves that the results are due to "culture" and not "talent"? 

Because I still don't see how you are supporting your argument.

(05-05-2022, 08:27 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I'll acknowledge Zac's job with the "culture" when you can post some stats or proof to support your claim.

Because 100% of the facts show that Zac didn't win shit with his "culture" until he got more talented players.  You keep saying that "culture" is only "part" of the equation and a team also needs talent.  But in order to make that claim you have to show that there was at least SOME benefit to the "culture" the first two seasons.  So how do you explain only 6 wins?  Fewest in the entire league?  So where is the impact of the "culture" on the win/loss record?

"Culture" is like "accountability".  They are made up terms people like to use but can never define or even provide examples of when i ask for them.  Everyone claims they "see it" but they can never show me a video clip of it.  So I simply say "show me".  If you see it them give me a specific example.

I thought you said ZT gets 3 years to get the team built to his liking??
So why are you focusing on years 1-2 for your argument when you know very well it takes some time to flip a roster.

The results of what ZT's effort cropped up in year 3. Now we get to see how much it continues to carry over. 
Also who says you can't have Character with out being talented as well?

The biggest reason no one can "show" you culture, is because it's an intangible asset that the players have. It's there, but very difficult to measure.

(05-05-2022, 11:33 AM)bfine32 Wrote: I realize no amount of "proof" is going to have you concede your incorrect point. The culture has changed and therefore made this Bengals team much better. We've gone from selfish players such as Carlos Dunlap to players like Trey Hendrickson who is so exhausted on the sidelines that he has to use the kicking net to keep himself upright on the sidelines. We've gone from the likes of leaders such as Vontaze Burfict and Pacman Jones to Vonn Bell and Mike Hilton 

Don't forget Jim "High Character" Turner that Zac brought in to help establish his culture.

(05-05-2022, 11:33 AM)bfine32 Wrote: In only 3 years Zac has taken this team to places that they have only been to twice before in their previous 51 years. If culture doesn't matter and only wins and loses then why did Jon Gruden get fired or Urban Meyer given less than 1 year? 

Gee, I don't know.  Call me crazy, but I think those guys were fired because they were losing and also there was clear evidence of bad behavior on their part.

How exactly does that have anything to do with Taylor? 

(05-05-2022, 12:52 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So can someone please explain to me how just showing the team record proves that the results are due to "culture" and not "talent"? 

Because I still don't see how you are supporting your argument.

Fred like a couple posters have tried to explain to you - it's not black and white, it's in color. You can't place everything in this world in neat little boxes and give them a label. Everything is not just pure stats and numbers in easily definable charts.

I'm not sure a single person has said ZT's culture change is 100% the reason we went to the Super Bowl. But I can guarantee you many (myself included) believe ZT's culture change has effected how this team plays. How they feel about their teammates, care about winning as a group, however you want to put it ? 

Can you win in the NFL with no talent or close to none ? NO But it takes more than just talent more often than not.

You want to argue Marvin Lewis had less talent, free agents, so on. I could care less about arguing about ML, that ship has sailed for me. But ML was by no means devoid of talent during his 16 year run.

(05-05-2022, 12:58 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Don't forget Jim "High Character" Turner that Zac brought in to help establish his culture.




Gee, I don't know.  Call me crazy, but I think those guys were fired because they were losing and also there was clear evidence of bad behavior on their part.

How exactly does that have anything to do with Taylor? 

Yes, Gruden and Meyer were establishing a culture that their teams' ownership wanted no part of it was not wins and loses. You've been given numerous examples of how the culture in the team has changed over the last couple years and you have been shown how the team has reached unparalleled heights in that time. Yet no one has given you proof that the culture had any affect on the team. 

I've grown tired of this game of Pigeon Chess.

(05-05-2022, 12:39 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: It's funny how the guy that is always arguing "show me the stats" "lets see the results" is now trying to argue the results/stats don't matter.

Like Bfine said

Mic drop

(05-05-2022, 01:19 PM)bfine32 Wrote:  You've been given numerous examples of how the culture in the team has changed over the last couple years 

No I have not.  I have just been told that the culture has changed.

Adam Jones and Vontaze Burfict have been gone since 2017 and the team got much worse after they left and Zac took over.  So that is not really a strong argument to prove that we are winning now because of superior "character".

You’re arguing something that can’t be proven.

It’s like love or intuition.

Having Joe Burrow instead of Andy Dalton can create a ton of false/new narratives.

Imagine trying to play for a wet noodle like Andy Dalton, vs a player like Burrrow.

(05-05-2022, 01:54 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No I have not.  I have just been told that the culture has changed.

Adam Jones and Vontaze Burfict have been gone since 2017 and the team got much worse after they left and Zac took over.  So that is not really a strong argument to prove that we are winning now because of superior "character".

Everyone else (you probably realize it to if you were not just trolling) understands when JB says things like "Last year's team doesn't win this game" after we lost a 10 point 4th quarter lead against the Vikings he pointing to the character and attitude change.

Now I know page 3 paragraph 1 of the troll handbook states when presented with this reality Reply with: "Well Zac was the HC last year".   Maybe some won't understand what it means to build a culture

(05-05-2022, 02:25 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Everyone else (you probably realize it to if you were not just trolling) understands when JB says things like "Last year's team doesn't win this game" after we lost a 10 point 4th quarter lead against the Vikings he pointing to the character and attitude change.

This is fascinating.  Did Burrow explain why he had a poor attitude and weak character in 2020?  Did he explain exactly what Zac did to fix him?

(05-05-2022, 02:25 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Everyone else (you probably realize it to if you were not just trolling) understands when JB says things like "Last year's team doesn't win this game" after we lost a 10 point 4th quarter lead against the Vikings he pointing to the character and attitude change.

Now I know page 3 paragraph 1 of the troll handbook states when presented with this reality Reply with: "Well Zac was the HC last year".   Maybe some won't understand what it means to build a culture

(05-05-2022, 02:31 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This is fascinating.  Did Burrow explain why he had a poor attitude and weak character in 2020?  Did he explain exactly what Zac did to fix him?

Like clockwork

(05-05-2022, 02:31 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This is fascinating.  Did Burrow explain why he had a poor attitude and weak character in 2020?  Did he explain exactly what Zac did to fix him?

Are you like this all the time?

(05-05-2022, 02:34 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Like clockwork

(05-05-2022, 02:35 PM)ATOTR Wrote: Are you like this all the time?

Yep.  Instead of answering my tough questions you all just duck and dodge.  Or try to run and hide behind a personal attack.


Just like clockwork.

(05-05-2022, 02:35 PM)ATOTR Wrote: Are you like this all the time?

This is fairly mild. but yea, he's like that alot. 

(05-05-2022, 02:35 PM)ATOTR Wrote: Are you like this all the time?

Not all the time, but most of the time, yes. Fred's schtick is to be a contrarian. I honestly wish people wouldn't let him bait them into arguments when he's like this. But alas, here we are yet again.