(05-23-2022, 06:39 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Perine may be better than what they currently have in that role, but I would almost guarantee there are better options for that role still out there in FA over Perine.
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/all/running-back/available/

True but gosh so many decisions are made on dollar value so to speak. He’s on every special team. Doubt his replacement would

(05-23-2022, 01:00 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Just don't measure improvement in running game based on total yards gained.  We could rush for fewer yards than last season, but if we can consistently run the ball in short yardage situations it will be a game changer.

Short yardage situations absolutely killed us last year.

With Burrow and all the receivers we have I don't care if we don't rush for a lot of yards.  But we have to be able to run the ball in short yardage situations.

Agree and disagree

Agree that Bengals were atrocious in picking up short yardage situations and it was definitely a drive killer many times. 

Agree as well that with the Bengals WR's there is no real need to rush for more yards. 

But if the Bengals can run the ball consistently then the defenses will be forced to bring players up into the box to stop it in lieu of dropping 7 or 8 into coverage. If Bengals can run the ball the WR's will get easy match ups to exploit all over the field. 

This is exactly why I always hoped Bengals would go after run blockers instead of great pass blockers, which they did. Burrow kills the blitz but struggles when teams can drop a lot into coverage, yet running the ball will cure all those problems. 

Also why I feel another good RB would be a boon for the team. 

to the OP, have said this several times and will state it again, Bengals offense is going to be a juggernaut this season and so fun to watch. Agree with you as well that records could tumble. 

(05-23-2022, 12:58 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I'd like to see them limit Mixon's snaps a bit early in the season so he's still got juice in the tank for down the stretch and hopefully playoffs.

I would like to see Evans get more opportunities especially in the passing game. It would be nice if we could work an equal 3 man rotation to limit Mixon's carries. Also if the passing game is going as good as we all hope we could probably afford to give rest weeks to the running backs for little dings. Mixon being healthy at the end is the biggest thing.

(05-23-2022, 08:48 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote:  Mixon being healthy at the end is the biggest thing.

I'll be honest.  This time last year two of my biggest concerns were the durability of Mixon and Jonah.

Having both of those guys play a full season was huge.  Most fans have forgotten what a big concern Jonah's durability was.  I am a big fan of his, and even I was concerned.  I guess part of it was that we were on a nightmare streak of high-drafted O-linemen.

It could be among the best. After having time to chew it over, my assessment is that they haven't gone far enough on the offensive line. It's true that they went out and got 3 decent to pretty good "starting caliber" players in FA. Karras has played well at guard and OK at center. Kappa brings some good toughness/power to RG, has some warts when it comes to stunts, but he's pretty good overall. Collins looks to be a slam dunk signing at RT. On the face of it, bringing in three starting caliber dudes seems like a surefire way to turbocharge the offense. Here's the thing: they signed three new "starting caliber" players, but they lost three of them at the same time. Spain, Hopkins, and Reiff were almost surely not as good as the three new OL, sure, but let's just discuss the QUANTITY aspect for a moment. They traded three out for three in. There is still one spot on the line that will have to be manned by a player who has not proven that they are capable of playing at an adequate level in pass protection(or otherwise). Is there a plan should none emerge? Is there any notable depth to cover for injuries aside from maybe Prince? I could see it going either way. Having an incomplete O-line would be nothing new for this team. From Nasty Nate Livings to Eric Ghiaciuc to Russell Bodine, there is a history to draw upon. Without further action, the offense may not hit the next gear(especially if Hurst fails to replace Uzomah). The good news is that there is plenty of time for them to assess whether or not some of their young players have the goods this year or not. To my knowledge all three of the other vet linemen from last year are still on the market, so there's that as well(assuming that they're healthy). I don't mean to be overly negative, just reiterating that it's currently in flux. A lot is riding on performance at OL and TE this year.

getting this OL a ton of reps together in the offseason will be important. as depending on who plays LG all 5 could have 0 snaps working together as a unit.

(05-24-2022, 02:47 AM)Bilbo Saggins Wrote: It could be among the best. After having time to chew it over, my assessment is that they haven't gone far enough on the offensive line. It's true that they went out and got 3 decent to pretty good "starting caliber" players in FA. Karras has played well at guard and OK at center. Kappa brings some good toughness/power to RG, has some warts when it comes to stunts, but he's pretty good overall. Collins looks to be a slam dunk signing at RT. On the face of it, bringing in three starting caliber dudes seems like a surefire way to turbocharge the offense. Here's the thing: they signed three new "starting caliber" players, but they lost three of them at the same time. Spain, Hopkins, and Reiff were almost surely not as good as the three new OL, sure, but let's just discuss the QUANTITY aspect for a moment. They traded three out for three in. There is still one spot on the line that will have to be manned by a player who has not proven that they are capable of playing at an adequate level in pass protection(or otherwise). Is there a plan should none emerge? Is there any notable depth to cover for injuries aside from maybe Prince? I could see it going either way. Having an incomplete O-line would be nothing new for this team. From Nasty Nate Livings to Eric Ghiaciuc to Russell Bodine, there is a history to draw upon. Without further action, the offense may not hit the next gear(especially if Hurst fails to replace Uzomah). The good news is that there is plenty of time for them to assess whether or not some of their young players have the goods this year or not. To my knowledge all three of the other vet linemen from last year are still on the market, so there's that as well(assuming that they're healthy). I don't mean to be overly negative, just reiterating that it's currently in flux. A lot is riding on performance at OL and TE this year.

C J Uzomah had a great year. Replacing the Uzomah of 2021 not easy. On the other hand Hurst has shown he’s been better overall. I think he will be more of a threat in the passing game. Hard to tell on everything else and the intangibles he won’t.

As far as the OL PFF seems to think the upgrade was major

LT Jonah Williams: 77.1
LG Quinton Spain: 72.3
C Trey Hopkins: 51.4
RG: Hakeem Adeniji: 48.3 (Jackson Carman 56.3)
RT: Isaiah Prince: 58.0 (Riley Reiff 67.3)
Now a look at the upgraded projected offensive line and their grades from last season:

LT Jonah Williams: 77.1
LG Jackson Carman: 56.3 (or another veteran/rookie)
C Ted Karras: 72.8
RG: Alex Cappa: 74.2
RT: La’el Collins: 82.0

(05-23-2022, 07:02 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: True but gosh so many decisions are made on dollar value so to speak. He’s on every special team. Doubt his replacement would

Maybe not quite as many ST snaps, but guys like Peyton Barber and Kalen Ballage are also bigger RBs and played a good chunk of STs at one point.
Barber played 192 ST snaps (45%) in 2017, Ballage played 162 ST snaps in 2018 (50%).

If the Bengals wanted to replace Trayveon Williams instead with someone like this, that's fine too.

(05-23-2022, 11:23 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: I don’t think Evans will replace Perine. He’s not strong in short yardage and not as good in the blitz. Perine is good there. However I’d like to see Evans take some of Mixon’s snaps and Mixon play in the third down short yardage and third and long and he take all of Perine’s. So in effect Mixon’s touches aren’t altered in total.Evans can’t handle what Perine does but Joe can. So Evans plays more series and if it becomes short yardage or third and long Mixon comes back in.

Sure there is recency bias, but I don't see Perine as a very good short yardage runner, and Evans just hasn't had the opportunities.  With his greater speed and suddenness, I could see Evans being a much better option, even in short yardage.  Have you seen the quads on that guy?  

(05-23-2022, 12:56 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: That's what I wanna see, more effective play action. Of course you have to be able to run the ball with some authority for play action to reach it's peak. And I'm hoping this new line is gonna be a game changer in that area.

And it should help us immensely in the Red Zone.

I too and kinda anxious to see how Evans is gonna pan out ?

For a sixth round pick, he only got 17 carries, but got 4.5 YPC (Mixon was 4.1) but added 15 receptions (on just 17 targets) for 151 yards and two TDs.  If he was a Marvin pick, he probably would have never seen any action....but he looked good (and was pretty good in KO return down the stretch last season with two KO returns for a total of 58 yards).

I also like his story about overcoming a mistake and he didn't transfer out.  But his testing is freakish and he has shown he can also pick up a blitz...something his college RB coach called one of his best assets.  

(05-23-2022, 06:39 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Perine may be better than what they currently have in that role, but I would almost guarantee there are better options for that role still out there in FA over Perine.
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/all/running-back/available/

Don’t know if Simmons loves him or who but the comment about Perine is his value on special teams and blocking on third down. What I’m told sounds like they have absolutely no thoughts replacing him. But that’s not info from the last 6 weeks.

(05-24-2022, 09:39 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Sure there is recency bias, but I don't see Perine as a very good short yardage runner, and Evans just hasn't had the opportunities.  With his greater speed and suddenness, I could see Evans being a much better option, even in short yardage.  Have you seen the quads on that guy?  

All I know is that they ( imagine Simmons) love Perine on special teams,blocking, and short yardage. They say Evans is not as good of an inside runner. Every time I ask I get the same response.

(05-23-2022, 12:56 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: That's what I wanna see, more effective play action. Of course you have to be able to run the ball with some authority for play action to reach it's peak. And I'm hoping this new line is gonna be a game changer in that area. And it should help us immensely in the Red Zone. I too and kinda anxious to see how Evans is gonna pan out ?

Interestingly enough, you don't need to be able to run the ball well for play-action to be effective or to reach its peak. It just works. Defenses are having to read at the beginning of the play and each defensive call has run fits. If they read run from a PA, they have to play those run fits. If they don't, you will all of a sudden have a no name back running wild on you. One guy not playing his run fit can let up a touchdown.

This play here is a fantastic example of this. This is Jahvid Best in 2011 against the Bears. The Lions that year were nothing special running the ball. You can see #55 on the Bears vacate his spot on the field to cover the flat and Best runs right up the middle where he vacated. Off to the races for an 88 yard touchdown.  With a broader view, you can look at rushing performance and play-action passing performance to try to find a relationship I.E. better rushing teams are more successful with play-action passes but this relationship doesn't exist. 

(05-24-2022, 12:03 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Interestingly enough, you don't need to be able to run the ball well for play-action to be effective or to reach its peak. It just works. Defenses are having to read at the beginning of the play and each defensive call has run fits. If they read run from a PA, they have to play those run fits. If they don't, you will all of a sudden have a no name back running wild on you. One guy not playing his run fit can let up a touchdown.

This play here is a fantastic example of this. This is Jahvid Best in 2011 against the Bears. The Lions that year were nothing special running the ball. You can see #55 on the Bears vacate his spot on the field to cover the flat and Best runs right up the middle where he vacated. Off to the races for an 88 yard touchdown.  With a broader view, you can look at rushing performance and play-action passing performance to try to find a relationship I.E. better rushing teams are more successful with play-action passes but this relationship doesn't exist. 

HUH Interesting

I would figure the at least decent at running the ball teams would be more effective at play action ?

(05-24-2022, 10:59 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: Don’t know if Simmons loves him or who but the comment about Perine is his value on special teams and blocking on third down. What I’m told sounds like they have absolutely no thoughts replacing him. But that’s not info from the last 6 weeks.

I'm not arguing whether they have thoughts on replacing him. I'm simply saying I would choose to replace him if I had any say in the matter.

(05-24-2022, 01:29 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: HUH Interesting

I would figure the at least decent at running the ball teams would be more effective at play action ?

It makes sense, but it isn't really the case. Thinking about the question, we are asking "if a team improves at rushing the ball, do they also improve at play-action passing?" There are a few ways to look at this, but I am going to use the quickest way since I am at work. I've lined up rushing data (yards per carry) and play-action passing data (passer rating) for QBs from the 2021 season. I have filtered it down to QBs that had more than 50 PA attempts. 

The #1 QB by passer rating on PA passes is....

Taylor Heinicke. Washington was tied for the 15th ranked team by YPC. Second is....

Aaron Rodgers. GB was also tied for 15th by YPC. Alright, so who are some really good rushing teams? Let's look at Carson Wentz and Baker Mayfield. The Browns and Colts were the #2 and #1 ranked teams by YPC, respectively. 

Wentz - 18th in passer rating
Mayfield - 17th in passer rating

Here is the data for 2021...



The best way to do this is to go week by week, aggregating rushing data and passing data to see performance trends by individual games. I've done this before and found the same result but I may do it again with the 2021 data added. 

(05-24-2022, 01:35 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I'm not arguing whether they have thoughts on replacing him. I'm simply saying I would choose to replace him if I had any say in the matter.

I knew that. Like I’ve said many times on several threads, let Evans spell Mixon a series here and there but have Mixon rotate in on third down. Mixon is a tough runner. I’d rather have Mixon than Perine on third down any way.

(05-24-2022, 02:07 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: It makes sense, but it isn't really the case. Thinking about the question, we are asking "if a team improves at rushing the ball, do they also improve at play-action passing?" There are a few ways to look at this, but I am going to use the quickest way since I am at work. I've lined up rushing data (yards per carry) and play-action passing data (passer rating) for QBs from the 2021 season. I have filtered it down to QBs that had more than 50 PA attempts. 

The #1 QB by passer rating on PA passes is....

Taylor Heinicke. Washington was tied for the 15th ranked team by YPC. Second is....

Aaron Rodgers. GB was also tied for 15th by YPC. Alright, so who are some really good rushing teams? Let's look at Carson Wentz and Baker Mayfield. The Browns and Colts were the #2 and #1 ranked teams by YPC, respectively. 

Wentz - 18th in passer rating
Mayfield - 17th in passer rating

Here is the data for 2021...



The best way to do this is to go week by week, aggregating rushing data and passing data to see performance trends by individual games. I've done this before and found the same result but I may do it again with the 2021 data added. 

Surprising thanks for your effort. Many things weigh in I'm sure but it's still not the way I'd of figured it would have lined up.

Boomer for example could fake the entire defense, stadium, fans watching TV, and the cameramen as to who had the ball, haha.

How much the Bengals will improve on Offense,as we all know weighs heavily on how much improved the OL play is.If this line turns out to be above average,with the continued maturity of Chase,Higgins,and Burrow,then yes,It could be the best Offense in the league.Remember,Burrow has only played one full season.Do you think he could get better? Yes.Is there room for improvement? Yes.Same goes for Chase and Higgins.I also think Hurst is a nice addition to this Offense.

(05-24-2022, 11:04 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: All I know is that they ( imagine Simmons) love Perine on special teams,blocking, and short yardage. They say Evans is not as good of an inside runner. Every time I ask I get the same response.

Well, all I know is the guy has insane ability.  He hadn't done much in the KR department either, but he got a chance and looked pretty damn good doing it.