(06-03-2022, 10:25 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Thanks for the updates @Pally.

I'm not a fan of seeing Adeniji at RG, but I guess I get it with Cappa out.
Would have maybe preferred Volson being there instead, but Adeniji just might be better at this very early stage.
Or maybe they just want Volson focusing at LG right now.

The WR4 spot definitely doesn't get me excited.
We've seen Mike Thomas. He's been in the league 6 years and has never had more than 13 rec, 132 yards, and 1 TD in a season.
If he's the WR4, we need to really hope there are no WR injuries.
Stanley Morgan also really hasn't done anything on offense noteworthy.
I really hope they add a vet WR4 by training camp.

Me too, bad

We have one of the top 5 WR trios in the NFL. Problem is behind that we really don't have much. Rookies and practice squad types. So I really hope they can find an experienced vet that has shown some production.

(06-03-2022, 10:35 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Me too, bad

We have one of the top 5 WR trios in the NFL. Problem is behind that we really don't have much. Rookies and practice squad types. So I really hope they can find an experienced vet that has shown some production.

"Much" is even a bit of a reach.
Thomas is nothing on offense.
I have a hard time believing Morgan and Irwin are going to magically become good WRs going into their 4th NFL season after doing nothing on offense the previous 3 and not even getting drafted.
Trent Taylor is about the only guy who has done much of anything on offense, and that was way back in 2017 as a rookie when he put up 430 yards. But he's a slot-only guy. 
If something happens to Chase or Higgins, Boyd could shift outside but he's better in the slot.
Would you shift Boyd outside and put Taylor in the slot?
Or would you gamble on Morgan/Irwin/Thomas outside?

(06-03-2022, 10:42 AM)ochocincos Wrote: "Much" is even a bit of a reach.
Thomas is nothing on offense.
I have a hard time believing Morgan and Irwin are going to magically become good WRs going into their 4th NFL season after doing nothing on offense the previous 3 and not even getting drafted.
Trent Taylor is about the only guy who has done much of anything on offense, and that was way back in 2017 as a rookie when he put up 430 yards. But he's a slot-only guy. 
If something happens to Chase or Higgins, Boyd could shift outside but he's better in the slot.
Would you shift Boyd outside and put Taylor in the slot?
Or would you gamble on Morgan/Irwin/Thomas outside?

Yep at best the guys we have are WR #5 or even #6 types. We need somebody that has some proven production. What if (lets hope not) 2 of our alpha dogs are out a game or two ?

We need a little better backups just in case.

(06-03-2022, 10:48 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Yep at best the guys we have are WR #5 or even #6 types. We need somebody that has some proven production. What if (lets hope not) 2 of our alpha dogs are out a game or two ?

We need a little better backups just in case.

I know some will say, "We'll just use the RBs and/or TEs more in the passing game," which can help, but it still doesn't cover that WR spot unless we just run fewer WRs out there.
The only pass catching TE worth a damn is Hurst, so it'd probably have to lean more toward Chris Evans and Joe Mixon with extra work in the passing game.

Would people be ok with both Evans and Mixon out there together along with Hurst and two WRs?
Evans and Mixon have been more productive in the receiving game in their careers than any of Thomas, Morgan, or Irwin have ever been.

(06-03-2022, 10:42 AM)ochocincos Wrote: "Much" is even a bit of a reach.
Thomas is nothing on offense.
I have a hard time believing Morgan and Irwin are going to magically become good WRs going into their 4th NFL season after doing nothing on offense the previous 3 and not even getting drafted.
Trent Taylor is about the only guy who has done much of anything on offense, and that was way back in 2017 as a rookie when he put up 430 yards. But he's a slot-only guy. 
If something happens to Chase or Higgins, Boyd could shift outside but he's better in the slot.
Would you shift Boyd outside and put Taylor in the slot?
Or would you gamble on Morgan/Irwin/Thomas outside?

In defense of Morgan and Thomas it's not like they have had a lot of playing time to prove themselves. 
With that being said a veteran deep threat WR would be nice. 

Let's say we replace Stanley Morgan with a vet such as Julio Jones. Now who picks up Morgan's 312 Snaps on ST?

We're talking a #4 WR; we're fine and we need players such as Morgan and Thomas. Now, heaven forbid, one of the top 3 go down. There will always be a Mo Sanu type looking for work..

(06-03-2022, 12:17 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Let's say we replace Stanley Morgan with a vet such as Julio Jones. Now who picks up Morgan's 312 Snaps on ST?

We're talking a #4 WR; we're fine and we need players such as Morgan and Thomas. Now, heaven forbid, one of the top 3 go down. There will always be a Mo Sanu type looking for work..

You don't need WR4 through WR7 playing a ton of ST snaps.
Auden Tate was on the roster for 4 years and never played more than 43 ST snaps in a season.
Their ST was still covered fine across the roster.


I'm not saying necessarily to get rid of Morgan. It could be Thomas or Irwin instead. They're all basically the same player. ST-only guy.
Depth RBs, TEs, LBs, and DBs can cover most ST roles that a depth WR would.

(06-03-2022, 12:23 PM)ochocincos Wrote: You don't need WR4 through WR7 playing a ton of ST snaps.
Auden Tate was on the roster for 4 years and never played more than 43 ST snaps in a season.
Their ST was still covered fine across the roster.


I'm not saying necessarily to get rid of Morgan. It could be Thomas or Irwin instead. They're all basically the same player. ST-only guy.
Depth RBs, TEs, LBs, and DBs can cover most ST roles that a depth WR would.

Thomas has about 150 snaps on ST. Special Teams is 1/3 of the game. I have no issues with our 4-7 WRs being ST aces; especially given the top 3 WRs we have, the RBs, and TEs

(06-03-2022, 12:27 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Thomas has about 150 snaps on ST. Special Teams is 1/3 of the game. I have no issues with our 4-7 WRs being ST aces; especially given the top 3 WRs we have, the RBs, and TEs

ST is not 1/3 of the game though.
There weren't even 500 ST snaps all season last year for the Bengals.
On the flip side, there were over 2000 offensive+defensive snaps.
So at most, ST is 20% of the game.

When looking at the ST snap numbers by person, most players play less than 50% of ST snaps.
Thomas only 117 snaps (24.75%)
Irwin only 15.
Tate only 33.

So keep Morgan for his ST and replace Thomas or Irwin with someone who could contribute more to the offense.

(06-03-2022, 12:33 PM)ochocincos Wrote: ST is not 1/3 of the game though.
There weren't even 500 ST snaps all season last year for the Bengals.
On the flip side, there were over 2000 offensive+defensive snaps.
So at most, ST is 20% of the game.

When looking at the ST snap numbers by person, most players play less than 50% of ST snaps.
Thomas only 117 snaps (24.75%)
Irwin only 15.
Tate only 33.

So keep Morgan for his ST and replace Thomas or Irwin with someone who could contribute more to the offense.

So what happens when Morgan gets hurt? I understand we need a better 4th option, but in your scenario our 2nd special team option is replaced and not sure that is a good idea. Some may think we may stash Thomas on the practice squad, but not likely he is not picked up and put on another teams top 53.

(06-03-2022, 12:42 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: So what happens when Morgan gets hurt? I understand we need a better 4th option, but in your scenario our 2nd special team option is replaced and not sure that is a good idea. Some may think we may stash Thomas on the practice squad, but not likely he is not picked up and put on another teams top 53.

Not necessarily. I said Thomas OR Irwin.
Put Irwin on the PS, no big deal.
Then promote him (or some other PS WR) if/when Morgan or Thomas gets hurt to help cover their ST snaps.

(06-03-2022, 12:42 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: So what happens when Morgan gets hurt? I understand we need a better 4th option, but in your scenario our 2nd special team option is replaced and not sure that is a good idea. Some may think we may stash Thomas on the practice squad, but not likely he is not picked up and put on another teams top 53.

Brandon Wilson played over 50% of the ST snaps every year he was healthy and ST's didn't fall apart without him when he went down last year.  He's hypothetically back healthy this year.  You'll likely have Apple or CTB as well as Hill and Anderson that can handle any ST's snaps the WR core may drop.  

Also keep in mind that if one of the Big Three go down, Morgan won't be available nearly as much for ST's.

(06-03-2022, 08:51 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Let's take these in order, shall we?  

Drops:  He has had 18 drops in 330 targets across six seasons.  That's .05%  Not Larry Fitzgerald, but still not a bad %.  I have no way to quantify when these drops occurred, but I know when he played with a good QB (Watson), the Texans were a perennial playoff team.  Without him and Watson, they are dreadful.

Injuries:  Last year, he played only two games.  That is bad, but also what will make him affordable.  His previous seasons, he played (in order from most recent to when he started in the league was 11, 11, 7, 10, and 14.  So, if you take out the season last year, that's an average of 10.6 games per season, or you can say prior to last year, he started 66.3% of his games.  

Now, for what he can actually contribute:  Despite only playing in 11 games just two seasons ago, he had 53 receptions for 879 yards and 8 TDs.

Maybe he could stay healthier playing fewer snaps?  He could have a huge season statistically and up his value for a new contract next year.  The Burrow effect of players wanting to come here would only grow.

It is as simple as this:  I think no matter how fortunate the Bengals are with health, they can ALWAYS use more weapons.  Fuller is a weapon, and could possibly be signed to a very reasonable one-year deal.  He could make the team better.  There is no way in hell some UDFA is going to have the impact of a Will Fuller.  And they can afford him.  Personally, I think they are waiting to see what happens with Bates signing the tag and possibly bringing back Larry O if he is healthy.  But I would LOVE to have Fuller as WR4.

I saw his lame ass play live because I live in Houston and we get all the games.  And no amount of stat manipulation, which you are failing at, change the eye test.

Let me repeat myself shall we?  

Quote:For friggin farts sakes - No FULLER.  OMG do you guys not know a thing about him?  He drops the ball.  He's made of glass.  He's missed half of his career with injury.  And he's just damned cursed, because it seems his injuries and dropsies are all at the worst times.  "Wide open bomb for TD" - drop.  Having a great first games of the year.....oops hamstring and done or turf toe or hangnail.


No Will Fuller FFS.

Will Fuller not only fails the eye test, he trips over it, drops it, stubs his toe on it and then is out for 8 weeks because of it.  But he sure gets ot the IR fast.

(06-03-2022, 10:25 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Thanks for the updates @Pally.

I'm not a fan of seeing Adeniji at RG, but I guess I get it with Cappa out.
Would have maybe preferred Volson being there instead, but Adeniji just might be better at this very early stage.
Or maybe they just want Volson focusing at LG right now.

The WR4 spot definitely doesn't get me excited.
We've seen Mike Thomas. He's been in the league 6 years and has never had more than 13 rec, 132 yards, and 1 TD in a season.
If he's the WR4, we need to really hope there are no WR injuries.
Stanley Morgan also really hasn't done anything on offense noteworthy.
I really hope they add a vet WR4 by training camp.

Agree with all of this Ocho. Adeniji should be healthy now so hopefully that keeps him from being so weak down low with his
roller skate feet. Volson I would take over him though even as a rookie as Volson is made for Guard and Adeniji isn't. Adeniji is
a Tackle if he can actually hold a little ground. Carman should be concentrated at LG all the way. No more moving him to the 
right side where he is clearly uncomfortable with his hand placement.

Stanley Morgan is a damn good ST'er and blocker so I think he should stick around in this capacity but you are right about 
Mike Thomas, yeah he can play ST's, but we need a WR who can actually fill in if one of the big 3 go down. We do not have
that on this team at the moment. Need to add a guy here IMO.

(06-03-2022, 01:04 PM)Stewy Wrote: I saw his lame ass play live because I live in Houston and we get all the games.  And no amount of stat manipulation, which you are failing at, change the eye test.

Let me repeat myself shall we?  

Will Fuller not only fails the eye test, he trips over it, drops it, stubs his toe on it and then is out for 8 weeks because of it.  But he sure gets ot the IR fast.

Who is your guy again Stewy for that backup vet WR we can bring in?

I like DeDe Westbrook but he has had a lot of trouble staying healthy himself...

(06-03-2022, 01:59 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Who is your guy again Stewy for that backup vet WR we can bring in?

I like DeDe Westbrook but he has had a lot of trouble staying healthy himself...

Westbrook has really only had 2 seasons with injuries - rookie year (only 7 games played) and 2020 (only 2 games played).
The other 3 years in his career he's played 15+ games.

He's a good PR and offers more as a WR than Taylor, so I'd be ok with swapping out Taylor for Westbrook and keeping the other backup guys for ST purposes.

Bottom line, they are already working on JoeyB's huge new contract, and have to do something with Higgins soon as well. I wouldn't be looking for bringing in any more WR's (or really any other position other than DT possibly) anytime soon.

(06-03-2022, 12:27 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Thomas has about 150 snaps on ST. Special Teams is 1/3 of the game. I have no issues with our 4-7 WRs being ST aces; especially given the top 3 WRs we have, the RBs, and TEs

Not really. It's 1/3 of the teams; offense, defense and ST, but it's not 1/3 of the "game". A typical NFL game will have around 30 total special teams snaps--including kickoffs, punts, field goals and extra points. 

It's more along the lines of 1/5th of the game and a decent portion of those are FG and PAT attempts. 

(06-03-2022, 02:50 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Westbrook has really only had 2 seasons with injuries - rookie year (only 7 games played) and 2020 (only 2 games played).
The other 3 years in his career he's played 15+ games.

He's a good PR and offers more as a WR than Taylor, so I'd be ok with swapping out Taylor for Westbrook and keeping the other backup guys for ST purposes.

Thanks, didn't know the particulars. Agree I would be okay with swapping Taylor for Westbrook or Mike Thomas for Westbrook.

I would keep Stanley Morgan for his blocking.

He is a fine blocker and even as a WR gets out there and makes way for our other WR's. Led the way for at least 1 TD last year.

(06-03-2022, 03:52 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: Not really. It's 1/3 of the teams; offense, defense and ST, but it's not 1/3 of the "game". A typical NFL game will have around 30 total special teams snaps--including kickoffs, punts, field goals and extra points. 

It's more along the lines of 1/5th of the game and a decent portion of those are FG and PAT attempts. 

Yes, ST's is one of the 3 phases of the game.