(05-23-2022, 01:51 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Not the biggest fan of Rapiens, but he is basically saying the same thing I did.  Don't trade Bates for a draft pick that will make us weaker this year but maybe better in 2-3 years. Only do it if you get a player that will start this year.

(05-23-2022, 05:13 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: And I agree. 

Of course another way to look at it, is not trading Bates for picks makes us less strong next year. Also Bates is not playing for free; it's $13 MIL against the Cap. We could turn that into Landon Collins and an interior lineman such as Ereck Flowers. And of course this is assuming Bates is only bluffing when he says he won't play under the tag.

So really how much worse is this team with Landon Collins, Ereck Flowers, more playing opportunities for Dax than it is with an unhappy Jesse Bates? 

(06-16-2022, 08:35 AM)Sled21 Wrote: So he can have multiple seasons like he had last year? He needs to play on the tag at this point to show he can be consistent.

Yep this.

I am sorry to those who are in love with Bates, but last year he showed he can be distracted by contract issues and then made the idiot move of ADMITTING it publicly.  It was UNPROFESSIONAL and our FO would be fools to pay him anything over 13-14 my due to his inconsistency and being unprofessional.  The NFL is a business and throwing top 5 money at Bates, AT THIS POINT, is bad business.  

Bates needs to man up and play on the tag (which he will).  He isn't being treated unfairly.  He made his bed and now he has to lie in it.

(06-16-2022, 10:05 AM)Stewy Wrote: Yep this.

I am sorry to those who are in love with Bates, but last year he showed he can be distracted by contract issues and then made the idiot move of ADMITTING it publicly.  It was UNPROFESSIONAL and our FO would be fools to pay him anything over 13-14 my due to his inconsistency and being unprofessional.  The NFL is a business and throwing top 5 money at Bates, AT THIS POINT, is bad business.  

Bates needs to man up and play on the tag (which he will).  He isn't being treated unfairly.  He made his bed and now he has to lie in it.

My jaw hit the floor when he made those statements last year.  Basically, "you're not giving me what I want, so I'm not going to give as much effort and not be as valuable to to the team in order to convince you to give me what I want."  That's some straight up toddler reasoning right there.  I really think that had he not had the playoff success that he did, his value would be nothing close to what we're discussing now.  His performance last year was nothing more than pedestrian.  If he's truly not willing to play under the tag this season and prove that he's worth a huge contract, then I say piss on him.

While I love for our best players to hang around and continue to be the best here in Cincinnati, I also realize that this is potentially Joe's last season under his rookie contract and then we've got Ja'marr and Tee to lock up.  We can't pay everyone top dollar.

One thing that I’m sure the bengals are thinking is that they will likely get a 3rd round comp pick after Jessie’s next contract. So they would likely need something a bit more to give him up.

Maybe a 2 and a 4 would get a deal done and sounds reasonable.

They just used 2 picks on Safeties... 1 being a 1st rounder who, by all accounts, is an outstanding player. The 2nd S, while a 4th rounder, was also highly regarded. Why on Earth would they sign Bates to a huge deal with 2 prospects waiting in the wings?

Whitworth was an aberration. How could the Bengals have possibly known he would continue to play at such a high level this long? It is virtually unheard of in today's NFL. And the guy they drafted to replace him had red flags all over the map.... Hill does not. Nothing like Ced.

I am excited for the Bengals to move on from Bates. I don't hate the guy, but if he cannot fit under the cap at a good enough value to the point they have to let other, stronger players go - like Higgins - then...... "Bye".

Bates has been after a massive deal for 2 years and the Bengals cannot figure out how to get it done. Time has afforded them the pieces in place to move on to other contracts and, at this point, I'm of the opinion that they should. Bates has no leverage at this point.

(06-16-2022, 09:55 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Of course another way to look at it, is not trading Bates for picks makes us less strong next year. Also Bates is not playing for free; it's $13 MIL against the Cap. We could turn that into Landon Collins and an interior lineman such as Ereck Flowers. And of course this is assuming Bates is only bluffing when he says he won't play under the tag.

So really how much worse is this team with Landon Collins, Ereck Flowers, more playing opportunities for Dax than it is with an unhappy Jesse Bates? 

I agree with most of this but see Collins as more of an the box safety. Idk agree 13 million could be used wisely to shore up 2 or 3 starters and solid back ups. We have talent so now and Bates admitted he was not all
in to win in 2021 which to me is unforgivable.

I would love to see a trade for a 2nd and 4th round pick in 2023 and use his salary to upgrade with one year deals for 3 guys.
Flowers
Bring Larry O. back
Vet safety like Collins (Hill replace Bates)

(06-16-2022, 09:55 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Of course another way to look at it, is not trading Bates for picks makes us less strong next year. Also Bates is not playing for free; it's $13 MIL against the Cap. We could turn that into Landon Collins and an interior lineman such as Ereck Flowers. And of course this is assuming Bates is only bluffing when he says he won't play under the tag.

So really how much worse is this team with Landon Collins, Ereck Flowers, more playing opportunities for Dax than it is with an unhappy Jesse Bates? 

Obviously if they trade him for another starter or sign a free agent that would change things. 

I just don't want to have to depend on a rookie to start in his place. And we never know if any potential free agent would want to sign here.

Anyone else keeping up with Bates workouts on IG? You can't say this guy isn't working HARD this off-season, that's for damn sure. That's why there's no way he's going to hold out.

He seems super motivated. I think he has a huge year. El_be_7 is who posts his workouts.Theres also some pretty cryptic messages on there.

1.) All the Jessie haters are taking his comments after the bye out of context. The guy certainly wasn't lofing it last season.

2.) He was our best player during the playoff run and was responsible for 3 INTs during the run. No else had more than one.

3.) The coaching staff and team clearly love the guy. Maybe we as fans shouldn't overlook that.

4.) Goodberry just posted a tweet from PFF that Safety is the 3rd most valuable position according to war in Football.


5.) We're not going to be able to sign Higgins to long term deal before he hits free agency. 1.) He is a top 10 WR under 25 and 2.) He has the same agent as Bates. Keeping Him and Chase together would be shocking at this point.

(06-16-2022, 11:07 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I agree with most of this but see Collins as more of an the box safety. Idk agree 13 million could be used wisely to shore up 2 or 3 starters and solid back ups. We have talent so now and Bates admitted he was not all
in to win in 2021 which to me is unforgivable.

I would love to see a trade for a 2nd and 4th round pick in 2023 and use his salary to upgrade with one year deals for 3 guys.
Flowers
Bring Larry O. back
Vet safety like Collins (Hill replace Bates)

Without knowing Collins' ratings in coverage v. run support; I've see Collins as a complete Safety. He played FS in Washington; as Merriweather played SS. 

I do know Bell was better in coverage than Bates last year in coverage; so if we could easily take the better in coverage to replace Bates while the other thumps. Also, our first 2 draft choices are prototypical coverage-safety types. 

The best thing about Collins is he is the same age as Reggie Nelson when he started wearing stripes. 

(06-16-2022, 04:28 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Without knowing Collins' ratings in coverage v. run support; I've see Collins as a complete Safety. He played FS in Washington; as Merriweather played SS. 

I do know Bell was better in coverage than Bates last year in coverage; so if we could easily take the better in coverage to replace Bates while the other thumps. Also, our first 2 draft choices are prototypical coverage-safety types. 

The best thing about Collins is he is the same age as Reggie Nelson when he started wearing stripes. 

To be fair because of the tons of cover 1 the Bengals used Jessie Bates area of coverage was ALOT more than Vonn Bell. Jessie Bates is one of the better cover 1 single high safeties in the NFL because of his instincts and range it allows the SS to roam. The Bengals Defensive will be taking a massive hit in their scheme without Bates in the lineup.

(06-16-2022, 04:47 PM)Synric Wrote: To be fair because of the tons of cover 1 the Bengals used Jessie Bates area of coverage was ALOT more than Vonn Bell. Jessie Bates is one of the better cover 1 single high safeties in the NFL because of his instincts and range it allows the SS to roam. The Bengals Defensive will be taking a massive hit in their scheme without Bates in the lineup.

Even this past year? The one, in which, we won the AFC

(06-16-2022, 04:49 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Even this past year? The one, in which, we won the AFC

Yes. The Bengals run more Cover 1 than any other team in the NFL over the past 2 seasons.

(06-16-2022, 04:52 PM)Synric Wrote: Yes. The Bengals run more Cover 1 than any other team in the NFL over the past 2 seasons.

Well I was solely concerned about the Superbowl season not the 4 win season before it. I was further concerned about how Bates did in it, more than the frequency he was asked to do it. 

(06-16-2022, 10:05 AM)Stewy Wrote: Yep this.

I am sorry to those who are in love with Bates, but last year he showed he can be distracted by contract issues and then made the idiot move of ADMITTING it publicly.  It was UNPROFESSIONAL and our FO would be fools to pay him anything over 13-14 my due to his inconsistency and being unprofessional.  The NFL is a business and throwing top 5 money at Bates, AT THIS POINT, is bad business.  

Bates needs to man up and play on the tag (which he will).  He isn't being treated unfairly.  He made his bed and now he has to lie in it.

Yep, shit in his own mess kit.

(06-16-2022, 10:30 AM)PDub80 Wrote: They just used 2 picks on Safeties... 1 being a 1st rounder who, by all accounts, is an outstanding player. The 2nd S, while a 4th rounder, was also highly regarded. Why on Earth would they sign Bates to a huge deal with 2 prospects waiting in the wings?

Whitworth was an aberration. How could the Bengals have possibly known he would continue to play at such a high level this long? It is virtually unheard of in today's NFL. And the guy they drafted to replace him had red flags all over the map.... Hill does not. Nothing like Ced.

I am excited for the Bengals to move on from Bates. I don't hate the guy, but if he cannot fit under the cap at a good enough value to the point they have to let other, stronger players go - like Higgins - then...... "Bye".

Bates has been after a massive deal for 2 years and the Bengals cannot figure out how to get it done. Time has afforded them the pieces in place to move on to other contracts and, at this point, I'm of the opinion that they should. Bates has no leverage at this point.

I feel the same. It is out of the question we sign Bates to a big extension now and the Draft and now the Minkah Fitzpatrick 
deal sealed this in stone. We wouldn't of drafted BOTH Dax and Tycen if a deal was going to happen. Not in the cards people.

(06-16-2022, 04:12 PM)J24 Wrote: 1.) All the Jessie haters are taking his comments after the bye out of context. The guy certainly wasn't lofing it last season.

2.) He was our best player during the playoff run and was responsible for 3 INTs during the run.  No else had more than one.

3.) The coaching staff and team clearly love the guy. Maybe we as fans shouldn't overlook that.

4.) Goodberry just posted a tweet from PFF that Safety is the 3rd most valuable position according to war in Football.


5.) We're not going to be able to sign Higgins to long term deal  before he hits free agency. 1.) He is a top 10 WR under 25 and 2.) He has the same agent as Bates. Keeping Him and Chase together would be shocking at this point.

1 - Jessie did say those things and he did play poorly during the regular season. He didn't play like a top 10 Safety in the
regular season, let alone a top 5 Safety like he evidently thinks he is otherwise he would of already signed an extension 
with us. The FO, coaches and the team clearly wanted him extended. They would of offered something fair. He should of
taken it and considered his play during the regular season when he made those comments.

2 - True.

3 - True.

4 - Doesn't mean that is true cause Goodberry tweeted it.

5 - We will see, certainly wouldn't be able to sign Higgins or maybe even Chase if we gave Bates a giant deal like he wants.

(06-16-2022, 04:47 PM)Synric Wrote: To be fair because of the tons of cover 1 the Bengals used Jessie Bates area of coverage was ALOT more than Vonn Bell. Jessie Bates is one of the better cover 1 single high safeties in the NFL because of his instincts and range it allows the SS to roam. The Bengals Defensive will be taking a massive hit in their scheme without Bates in the lineup.

This is true for sure. Hope that Dax Hill can be a great cover 1 single high safety like Bates...

(06-16-2022, 06:16 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Yep, shit in his own mess kit.


I feel the same. It is out of the question we sign Bates to a big extension now and the Draft and now the Minkah Fitzpatrick 
deal sealed this in stone. We wouldn't of drafted BOTH Dax and Tycen if a deal was going to happen. Not in the cards people.


1 - Jessie did say those things and he did play poorly during the regular season. He didn't play like a top 10 Safety in the
regular season, let alone a top 5 Safety like he evidently thinks he is otherwise he would of already signed an extension 
with us. The FO, coaches and the team clearly wanted him extended. They would of offered something fair. He should of
taken it and considered his play during the regular season when he made those comments.

2 - True.

3 - True.

4 - Doesn't mean that is true cause Goodberry tweeted it.

5 - We will see, certainly wouldn't be able to sign Higgins or maybe even Chase if we gave Bates a giant deal like he wants.


This is true for sure. Hope that Dax Hill can be a great cover 1 single high safety like Bates...

https://twitter.com/JoeGoodberry/status/1537462561314066432?t=Qg2SOauV80JJlV3yGZbOuw&s=19

Let's get real here. The Bengals were touting Jessie as the best Safety in Football last Off-season . He came off an all pro season and was rated #1 Safety by PFF . Yet the guy isn't supposed to expect a big time contract? What sense does that make? 

We can certainly afford to sign Bates as well as Burrow and Chase. 

The Rams signed Ramsey, Donald, Stafford, Howard,  Robinson,  and Kupp all to massive deals this  off-season. 

(06-16-2022, 04:12 PM)J24 Wrote: 1.) All the Jessie haters are taking his comments after the bye out of context. The guy certainly wasn't lofing it last season.

There is nothing taken out of context.  The bias is yours, not the haters, of which i am not one.  

Personally i saw the quotes.  He said specifically that the contract stuff distracted him, and he was alluding to his play.  I'm not saying he was dogging it on purpose, but IN HIS OWN WORDS it got into his head and affected him.

Sorry but you can't spin it differently.  He said it and it was clear what he was talking about.

(06-16-2022, 09:13 PM)Stewy Wrote: There is nothing taken out of context.  The bias is yours, not the haters, of which i am not one.  

Personally i saw the quotes.  He said specifically that the contract stuff distracted him, and he was alluding to his play.  I'm not saying he was dogging it on purpose, but IN HIS OWN WORDS it got into his head and affected him.

Sorry but you can't spin it differently.  He said it and it was clear what he was talking about.

How would you be if your worth 40 million guaranteed and a freak injury could destroy that. Its easy to blame the athlete we all support the team these players are individuals with families to support.

(06-16-2022, 09:27 PM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: How would you be if your worth 40 million guaranteed and a freak injury could destroy that. Its easy to blame the athlete we all support the team these players are individuals with families to support.

Irrelevant.  It's the situation the NFLPA and the owners agreed upon.  It's business.  

Jessie let the "business" get in his head, which was unprofessional.  You can ignore all that if you like, but thank goodness the FO isn't and won't ignore it.

(06-16-2022, 04:12 PM)J24 Wrote: 4.) Goodberry just posted a tweet from PFF that Safety is the 3rd most valuable position according to war in Football.

Last offseason, PFF did a study of Positional WAR after the Bengals picked a WR over an OT.

But I think Safety being this high would surprise many.https://t.co/1mm0BD5mIT pic.twitter.com/uezNYsEkey

— Goodberry (@JoeGoodberry) June 16, 2022

Not that I didn’t believe you, but I had to look it up because it was so surprising. I used the WAR argument a lot when we were debating Chase vs Sewell, but this is pretty crazy to me. It’s hard to believe positions like safety and LB are more valuable than Edge and OT in the modern NFL.