(07-18-2022, 01:36 PM)Sled21 Wrote: I didn't realizd Bates was like this, but I guess he is.. with "some" NFL players it becomes more about ego and where they are paid compared to other players at the position. 

Seems that way.

To each his own as far as these people are...

I would rather be making great money on a great team than great money on a shitty team that won't be in contention.

Joe Burrow and Ja'Marr Chase are special on the Offense and Trey Hendrickson, DJ Reader and Logan Wilson could be very
special on this Defense. If you want to go somewhere else and play against these guys go right ahead.

With the Dax Hill pick I doubt we miss him. Dax is so much more polished of a player even as a rookie. We will see anyways.

Looks like Dax is going to get most of the snaps lol

(07-18-2022, 01:37 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Depends.
Was it 3rd-highest safety but lower guaranteed money?
He's ultimately interested in securing the most guaranteed money he can.

(07-18-2022, 01:42 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: It's not the amount that is the issue, it's that only the first year's worth of the money was "guaranteed".

I just don't understand, this is an absurd amount of money no matter how it is spinned. 

I don't get crying over the small shit.

(07-18-2022, 01:49 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Seems that way.

To each his own as far as these people are...

I would rather be making great money on a great team than great money on a shitty team that won't be in contention.

Joe Burrow and Ja'Marr Chase are special on the Offense and Trey Hendrickson, DJ Reader and Logan Wilson could be very
special on this Defense. If you want to go somewhere else and play against these guys go right ahead.

With the Dax Hill pick I doubt we miss him. Dax is so much more polished of a player even as a rookie. We will see anyways.

Looks like Dax is going to get most of the snaps lol



I just don't understand, this is an absurd amount of money no matter how it is spinned. 

I don't get crying over the small shit.

If it's the difference of just a few mill in guaranteed, I would maybe agree.
However, I have a feeling we're talking difference of guaranteed money around $10-20 mill range.
You've got the following safeties getting $20+ mill guaranteed:
Justin Reid ($20.5 mill)
Jamal Adams ($21 mill)
Eddie Jackson ($22 mill)
Budda Baker ($22.1 mill)
Kevin Byard ($25.225 mill)
Marcus Williams ($32 mill)
Justin Simmons ($32.1 mill)
Minkah Fitzpatrick ($36 mill)

If Bengals aren't even above $20 mill guaranteed, I'd be irritated if I were Bates.

(07-18-2022, 02:02 PM)ochocincos Wrote: If it's the difference of just a few mill in guaranteed, I would maybe agree.
However, I have a feeling we're talking difference of guaranteed money around $10-20 mill range.
You've got the following safeties getting $20+ mill guaranteed:
Justin Reid ($20.5 mill)
Jamal Adams ($21 mill)
Eddie Jackson ($22 mill)
Budda Baker ($22.1 mill)
Kevin Byard ($25.225 mill)
Marcus Williams ($32 mill)
Justin Simmons ($32.1 mill)
Minkah Fitzpatrick ($36 mill)

If Bengals aren't even above $20 mill guaranteed, I'd be irritated if I were Bates.

I wouldn't but to each his own.

He isn't as good as those guys and Fitzpatrick was overpaid big time and I hope it bites Pitt's ass big time...

He should be betting on himself and wanting to win SuperBowls. Don't sweat the small stuff.

Play football and make bank, this should be his mind set.

Oh well, I am ready to move on from this guy now. Sad I wanted us to draft him and he got the agent he did.

At least he helped us big time in the Playoffs and the SuperBowl this year. Part on good terms is all I want.

Keep positive energy around here.

(07-18-2022, 02:06 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I wouldn't but to each his own.

He isn't as good as those guys and Fitzpatrick was overpaid big time and I hope it bites Pitt's ass big time...

He should be betting on himself and wanting to win SuperBowls. Don't sweat the small stuff.

Play football and make bank, this should be his mind set.

Oh well, I am ready to move on from this guy now. Sad I wanted us to draft him and he got the agent he did.

At least he helped us big time in the Playoffs and the SuperBowl this year. Part on good terms is all I want.

Keep positive energy around here.

Come on dude you have to look at from the players perspective a bit. If the dude gets seriously injured or worse the Bengals can just cut him if they want too. The dude is looking out for his best interests and quite frankly looking for proper compensation. 

(07-18-2022, 02:02 PM)ochocincos Wrote: If it's the difference of just a few mill in guaranteed, I would maybe agree.
However, I have a feeling we're talking difference of guaranteed money around $10-20 mill range.
You've got the following safeties getting $20+ mill guaranteed:
Justin Reid ($20.5 mill)
Jamal Adams ($21 mill)
Eddie Jackson ($22 mill)
Budda Baker ($22.1 mill)
Kevin Byard ($25.225 mill)
Marcus Williams ($32 mill)
Justin Simmons ($32.1 mill)
Minkah Fitzpatrick ($36 mill)

If Bengals aren't even above $20 mill guaranteed, I'd be irritated if I were Bates.

If they want to retain guys like Burrow and Chase or sign high prized free agents in the future, they are going to DRASTICALLY have to change their stance on the guaranteed money of contract structure. It's where the NFL is trending. This is where I get worried.

(07-18-2022, 02:06 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I wouldn't but to each his own.

He isn't as good as those guys and Fitzpatrick was overpaid big time and I hope it bites Pitt's ass big time...

He should be betting on himself and wanting to win SuperBowls. Don't sweat the small stuff.

Play football and make bank, this should be his mind set.

Oh well, I am ready to move on from this guy now. Sad I wanted us to draft him and he got the agent he did.

At least he helped us big time in the Playoffs and the SuperBowl this year. Part on good terms is all I want.

Keep positive energy around here.

You don't think Bates is as good as ANY of those guys?

I could probably argue easily 3 of those guys.

When comparing their stats 2018-2021 regular season:
Bates - 10 INTs, 35 PDs, 2 FFs, 408 tackles
Reid - 7 INTs, 23 PDs, 2 FF, 315 tackles
Baker - 5 INTs, 20 PDs, 3 FFs, 465 tackles
Williams - 11 INTs, 31 PDs, 3 FFs, 247 tackles
Jackson - 8 INTs, 27 PDs, 7 FFs, 269 tackles
Fitzpatrick - 13 INTs, 36 PDs, 4 FFs, 352 tackles
Byard - 15 INTs, 37 PDs, 3 FFs, 373 tackles

I think you can easily argue Bates is deserving of as much or more as Reid, Baker, Williams, Jackson.
I think a deal of 3 years, $45 mill with $22-25 mill guaranteed is very fair.

I like Bates and want him on the team, but he needs to exist in reality.

I like him and what he brings to the team, but I like what Burrow, Chase, and Higgins bring a whole lot more. The front office understands what made this team Super Bowl caliber last year and they are preparing to do all they can to keep it intact for the entirety of the aforementioned players' prime years, if at all possible.

Paying a safety 18-20 mil per doesn't help them accomplish this. Bates' loss might be tough, but replacing good players is something they're going to need to learn how to do if they are going to have long-term success in the Burrow era.

Jesse has to do what's best for him, but I think he needs to consider his agent's aggressive tactics and how they may impact his career. I'm not a financial advisor, but I'll take a wild guess that losing 12.5 mil is going to sting Jesse Bates a lot more than it's going to impact the Bengals on the field. A year off the field is also highly unlikely to make him a better player, or one that's any more enticing to teams interested in his services. it's quite possible he'd just get franchised in 2023, anyway.

Jesse has terrible leverage in this situation. It's so bad, that I almost feel for the guy. Almost. Everyone watching knows this, and the Brown family absolutely knows it. An arrogant, grandstanding agent being aggressive in negotiations with the family is like a housecat threatening a tiger. Thye've seen this movie before, and they rarely make concessions. Bates should bet on himself, get his 12.5 mil, and move on.

(07-18-2022, 02:14 PM)J24 Wrote: Come on dude you have to look at from the players perspective a bit. If the dude gets seriously injured or worse the Bengals can just cut him if they want too. The dude is looking out for his best interests and quite frankly looking for proper compensation. 

I am looking at it from Jessie's perspective.

If what Sled said is true and he got offered top 3 Safety money and turned it down it was crazy stupid of him or his agent.

Probably his agent who is all about himself and not Jessie from what I know about the guy. He the greedy man.

Jessie should be paid fairly but not enough to hurt the team. I would think Jessie would want the same.

(07-18-2022, 02:19 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: If they want to retain guys like Burrow and Chase or sign high prized free agents in the future, they are going to DRASTICALLY have to change their stance on the guaranteed money of contract structure. It's where the NFL is trending. This is where I get worried.

Same.

(07-18-2022, 02:21 PM)ochocincos Wrote: You don't think Bates is as good as ANY of those guys?

I could probably argue easily 3 of those guys.

When comparing their stats 2018-2021 regular season:
Bates - 10 INTs, 35 PDs, 2 FFs, 408 tackles
Reid - 7 INTs, 23 PDs, 2 FF, 315 tackles
Baker - 5 INTs, 20 PDs, 3 FFs, 465 tackles
Williams - 11 INTs, 31 PDs, 3 FFs, 247 tackles
Jackson - 8 INTs, 27 PDs, 7 FFs, 269 tackles
Fitzpatrick - 13 INTs, 36 PDs, 4 FFs, 352 tackles
Byard - 15 INTs, 37 PDs, 3 FFs, 373 tackles

I think you can easily argue Bates is deserving of as much or more as Reid, Baker, Williams, Jackson.
I think a deal of 3 years, $45 mill with $22-25 mill guaranteed is very fair.

Stats aren't everything either. Bates had games where he completely whiffed on tackles and got beat many times
especially last year early on in the regular season. He was pretty bad honestly most of last regular season. He shown 
up in the Playoffs and SB and played great though as we all know.

Argue all you want if you think Bates is better than a couple of those guys. He is a better single high Safety than 
about all of them. We could agree on that. Great range and he is a ballhawk single high Safety.

I wanted him back, but not now if he turned down top 3 Safety money simply cause of guaranteed millions of dollars.

Sounds like greed to me. Don't want it around. These guys make great money, no more drama.

I really don't think any of the $$$$ in any deal should be fully guaranteed... That would keep players super motivated.

But every year of a contract becomes fully Guaranteed when the season starts. So not sure why its such a big issue.

(07-18-2022, 02:14 PM)J24 Wrote: Come on dude you have to look at from the players perspective a bit. If the dude gets seriously injured or worse the Bengals can just cut him if they want too. The dude is looking out for his best interests and quite frankly looking for proper compensation. 

Exactly.Impossible for any of us to put ourselves and our rather meager way of thinking (no insult to anyone but none of us are professional athletes in this rather lucrative industry with multi billion dollar TV contracts, huge streaming deals, billionaire owners,etc.).

Bates has been a hell of a player in this league for years and, yes, he while he was rather pedestrian to the naked eye a season ago,the cream rose to the top when it mattered most in the post season and he was an absolute TOP DOG in this defense when they needed him most. When an athlete sees their peers that they are an equal to, better than or maybe just a tick below then they certainly want/feel they deserve to be in that neighborhood of compensation.

Does ego play a part? You betcha it does and it's hard not to have an ego to some degree when a guy like Bates has played football in front of millions of people and billions of people from a TV standpoint.There's a reason only 1400 or so people in a world of multi billion get to play football.

(07-18-2022, 03:02 PM)higgy100 Wrote: Exactly.Impossible for any of us to put ourselves and our rather meager way of thinking (no insult to anyone but none of us are professional athletes in this rather lucrative industry with multi billion dollar TV contracts, huge streaming deals, billionaire owners,etc.).

Bates has been a hell of a player in this league for years and, yes, he while he was rather pedestrian to the naked eye a season ago,the cream rose to the top when it mattered most in the post season and he was an absolute TOP DOG in this defense when they needed him most. When an athlete sees their peers that they are an equal to, better than or maybe just a tick below then they certainly want/feel they deserve to be in that neighborhood of compensation.

Play like a TOP DOG ALL YEAR LONG  then get paid

Jessie should like at the team he plays for. They have generally honored their contracts. When Mike made a deal with a player that was it. He held up his end of the deal and you weren’t going to renegotiate with 2 years into a 5 year deal. I partly have come to think this was his way of guaranteeing a contract without shelling out a lot of up front bonus. Leon hall is a great example. Most teams would have bailed on him long before the bengals did. His play wasn’t worth what he was getting paid.

When you’re on a team as loaded as the bengals are each player will have to decide if it’s worth it to them to take a little less to be part of a very good team, potentially a dynasty type team.

If it’s true they offered him top 3 type money and he didn’t take it shame on him. I hope he doesn’t get leveon bell’ed.

Even if he had a serious injury this year I’d have to think the bengals would let him rehab and return and play for awhile before axing him due to subpar performance. That would shake out to his guaranteed money, at least 2 years salary and potentially an injury settlement. I could retire on that amount


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(07-18-2022, 03:04 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: Play like a TOP DOG ALL YEAR LONG  then get paid

3 (no more than 4) of the guys listed below even were in the playoffs a season ago. Did they all play like a top dog all season long? Any fault lie on them in their losses? Any of them miss any tackles, drop any picks or were in the wrong position at the wrong time Were they the teammates and leaders they needed to be all season long?

I'll go out on a limb and say they weren't all worthy of those contracts because of the reasons listed above and if all eyes on this site weren't feasted on Bates and the Bengals for 17 regular season games and close to 1200-1300 defensive plays then you'd see many of the same blunders by these players as you saw with Bates.

Again, I am in no way, shape or form saying they should pay those kind of $$ to him especially with all the $$$ they're going to need to pay in the next couple years to other star players but Bates is worth a heck of alot more $$$ than the Bengals are guaranteeing him.

Justin Reid ($20.5 mill)

Jamal Adams ($21 mill)
Eddie Jackson ($22 mill)
Budda Baker ($22.1 mill)
Kevin Byard ($25.225 mill)
Marcus Williams ($32 mill)
Justin Simmons ($32.1 mill)
Minkah Fitzpatrick ($36 mill)

(07-18-2022, 02:58 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I am looking at it from Jessie's perspective.

If what Sled said is true and he got offered top 3 Safety money and turned it down it was crazy stupid of him or his agent.

Probably his agent who is all about himself and not Jessie from what I know about the guy. He the greedy man.

Jessie should be paid fairly but not enough to hurt the team. I would think Jessie would want the same.


Same.


Stats aren't everything either. Bates had games where he completely whiffed on tackles and got beat many times
especially last year early on in the regular season. He was pretty bad honestly most of last regular season. He shown 
up in the Playoffs and SB and played great though as we all know.

Argue all you want if you think Bates is better than a couple of those guys. He is a better single high Safety than 
about all of them. We could agree on that. Great range and he is a ballhawk single high Safety.

I wanted him back, but not now if he turned down top 3 Safety money simply cause of guaranteed millions of dollars.

Sounds like greed to me. Don't want it around. These guys make great money, no more drama.

Bates did have some games where he didn't play great, but I guarantee you every one of those other safeties has too.
You pay a guy for what you think he can do over the course of the next contract, and you use the previous years' evidence to back up that prediction.


From the Bengals' perspective, they'll likely say that it's basically guaranteed because they don't move on from someone until maybe the final year of their contract. So essentially all years besides that final year can be viewed as guaranteed.


But from Bates' perspective, that's still not guaranteed that they would absolutely not move on prior to final year or at all.
And when you're talking the difference of potentially $10+ mill you could guarantee to have, that is a big deal.

The reality is someone will likely give Bates the years and guaranteed money he wants, but the Bengals can't/won't pay everyone. They are going to prioritize Burrow first, and then probably Chase and then Hendrickson right after. Higgins also has to be considered, as well as Jonah Williams.

I don't view it as greed by Bates. I view it as the league set this market, and this is what happens when you reset the market for safeties (or any position) like this.

(07-18-2022, 03:16 PM)BenZoo2 Wrote: Jessie should like at the team he plays for. They have generally honored their contracts. When Mike made a deal with a player that was it. He held up his end of the deal and you weren’t going to renegotiate with 2 years into a 5 year deal. I partly have come to think this was his way of guaranteeing a contract without shelling out a lot of up front bonus. Leon hall is a great example. Most teams would have bailed on him long before the bengals did. His play wasn’t worth what he was getting paid.

When you’re on a team as loaded as the bengals are each player will have to decide if it’s worth it to them to take a little less to be part of a very good team, potentially a dynasty type team.

If it’s true they offered him top 3 type money and he didn’t take it shame on him. I hope he doesn’t get leveon bell’ed.

Even if he had a serious injury this year I’d have to think the bengals would let him rehab and return and play for awhile before axing him due to subpar performance. That would shake out to his guaranteed money, at least 2 years salary and potentially an injury settlement. I could retire on that amount


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o_O

What team were you watching? He was a top 20 CB every year he was healthy, without fail.

(07-18-2022, 03:02 PM)higgy100 Wrote: Exactly.Impossible for any of us to put ourselves and our rather meager way of thinking (no insult to anyone but none of us are professional athletes in this rather lucrative industry with multi billion dollar TV contracts, huge streaming deals, billionaire owners,etc.).

Bates has been a hell of a player in this league for years and, yes, he while he was rather pedestrian to the naked eye a season ago,the cream rose to the top when it mattered most in the post season and he was an absolute TOP DOG in this defense when they needed him most. When an athlete sees their peers that they are an equal to, better than or maybe just a tick below then they certainly want/feel they deserve to be in that neighborhood of compensation.

Does ego play a part? You betcha it does and it's hard not to have an ego to some degree when a guy like Bates has played football in front of millions of people and billions of people from a TV standpoint.There's a reason only 1400 or so people in a world of multi billion get to play football.

You make an interesting point, but leverage is a huge factor here and Bates just doesn't have any.  His agent is making statements and threats that will do absolutely nothing to pressure the front office to give his client what he want.  

Bates is great and I want him here, but context is key to every situation.  Will it sting not to have Jesse around in 2022?  Yes, but it's probably not a backbreaking loss.  He's not a quarterback or a number 1 wideout, and his replacement is clearly in house right now.  

We aren't looking at an owner that's being greedy or cheap.  We're looking at an organization that is planning to lock up a massively expensive franchise quarterback and a couple of high-end receivers sooner than we think.  

Again, if Jesse follows through, he's hurting himself more than anyone.  Do I think he's earned a shot at long term financial security and a big contract?  Absolutely.  He's just in the worst possible scenario to get it from the team he's currently with.  He just doesn't have anything to threaten them with that will motivate them to give him what he wants.  

Bates and his agent picked the wrong team owner to try to stick up over guaranteed money.... especially since they are still coming off being screwed by Trae Wayne's contract. ASAIK, they offered him more than he's worth as a player, he should have signed. He's dead to me.....

(07-18-2022, 04:36 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Bates and his agent picked the wrong team owner to try to stick up over guaranteed money.... especially since they are still coming off being screwed by Trae Wayne's contract. ASAIK, they offered him more than he's worth as a player, he should have signed. He's dead to me.....

Oh God how will Bates ever recover!

(07-18-2022, 03:36 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: o_O

What team were you watching? He was a top 20 CB every year he was healthy, without fail.

Is this true? I remember him being bad his last few years. Like i did not like him guarding speedy guys on the outside. To his credit he hung on as a starter even after he lost his speed which means he was just a smart ass player. I just can’t believe he was top 20 every year he was healthy.

(07-18-2022, 03:36 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: o_O

What team were you watching? He was a top 20 CB every year he was healthy, without fail.

I've never gotten the disrespect hall has gotten. He was never bad and it took 2 Achilles tears to limit his play.