(08-13-2022, 12:38 PM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: Carmen played well I thought. Daxton Hill no reason to play anymore pre season looks like a stud. Our 2nd round pick played awful through 1 pre season game looking like a bust.

No.

(08-13-2022, 01:01 PM)jj22 Wrote: Pollack has to be on the hot seat at this point. Even if the starting Oline improves, you have to wonder if it is because they gained experience and development elsewhere. Who has Pollack developed.

Jonah graded out extremely well last season, and looks to be developing nicely. Spain (a 6 year veteran) just had a career year under Pollack. Becton was looking really good his rookie season with Pollack in NY. And then ofc all the guys in Dallas - including Collins.

It just cracks me up that some of you expect him to make chicken salad out of chicken shit. Idc if it’s Bill Callahan, Dante Scarnecchia, or whoever else you want to insert in, none of them are going to make guys like Prince, Adeniji, Trey Hill, etc, look good.

If you want to knock Pollack for not having a high pick like Carman looking any better by this point, ok maybe that’s fair, but how much of it is on Carman himself? Pollack has had success in this league. Carman hasn’t.

(08-13-2022, 12:38 PM)Bengalfan4life27c Wrote: Carmen played well I thought.

Yea, in bizzaro world

Evans played well. Sadly, every time he turned around there was a flag.

(08-13-2022, 01:18 PM)hollodero Wrote: Thanks for saying that. I started thinking the same thing, but thought it to be a sacrilege to mention it. The man seems to be sacrosanct and beyond any critizism, but in the end he got a lot of different young players to work with over quite some time now and apparently no one developed into a decent starter. It's getting a bit odd that everyone but Pollack seems to be to blame for that.

I blame Duke Tobin a hell of a lot more. The OL drafting woes started long before Pollack ever got here, and they will continue after he’s gone if we think just replacing him is going to magically fix things.

The FO deserves a lot of credit for rebuilding this roster over the past few years, and nailing a lot of their picks, but there’s still one area they’re not getting it right. And that’s on them.

(08-13-2022, 01:42 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I blame Duke Tobin a hell of a lot more. The OL drafting woes started long before Pollack ever got here, and they will continue after he’s gone if we think just replacing him is going to magically fix things.

I don't think that would magically fix things, I am also not demanding Pollack to be replaced. It's just, when Pollack arrived he was considered to be the guy to magically fix things. Imho it's time to put him off that pedestal.

(08-13-2022, 01:01 PM)jj22 Wrote: Pollack has to be on the hot seat at this point. Even if the starting Oline improves, you have to wonder if it is because they gained experience and development elsewhere. Who has Pollack developed.

All Pro Duane Brown
All Pro Travis Frederick
All Pro Zack Martin
Mekhi Becton who was very highly rated his rookie season before missing last year with injury.
Derek Newton was never an All-Pro, but he was a solid NFL starter for 5 years and that is not bad for a 7th round pick.
Last year Jonah improved significantly.

I am not as high on Pollack as some here, but I don't consider him a problem at all.

(08-13-2022, 01:46 PM)hollodero Wrote: I don't think that would magically fix things, I am also not demanding Pollack to be replaced. It's just, when Pollack arrived he was considered to be the guy to magically fix things. Imho it's time to put him off that pedestal.

I don’t think he’s on any kind of “pedestal.” I just think most rational people try and look at the context of what he’s working with. They were basically throwing shit at the wall last night, and hoping something stuck. That’s the only explanation for putting Prince at LT, Adeniji at RT, etc. The backup options look downright dreadful right now outside of a rookie Volson - who’s from a small school, and a complete unknown in D’Ante Smith - who can’t stay healthy.

(08-13-2022, 01:47 PM)fredtoast Wrote: All Pro Duane Brown
All Pro Travis Frederick
All Pro Zack Martin
Mekhi Becton who was very highly rated his rookie season before missing last year with injury.
Derek Newton was never an All-Pro, but he was a solid NFL starter for 5 years and that is not bad for a 7th round pick.
Last year Jonah improved significantly.

I am not as high on Pollack as some here, but I don't consider him a problem at all.

He was only an assistant coach for Duane Brown and Brown became a Pro Bowler and 1st Team All-Pro both for the first time the year after Pollack left.

Pollack became OL Coach for the Cowboys in 2015....
Travis Frederick was 2nd Team All-Pro and a Pro Bowler in 2014.
Zack Martin was 1st Team All-Pro and a Pro Bowler in 2014.

Last year Jonah was healthy for the first time ever.

(08-13-2022, 02:02 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: He was only an assistant coach for Duane Brown and Brown became a Pro Bowler and 1st Team All-Pro both for the first time the year after Pollack left.

Pollack became OL Coach for the Cowboys in 2015....
Travis Frederick was 2nd Team All-Pro and a Pro Bowler in 2014.
Zack Martin was 1st Team All-Pro and a Pro Bowler in 2014.

Last year Jonah was healthy for the first time ever.

But you all are making it impossible to bring up any examples with these kinds of qualifiers. Since when is working with a player in his 2nd season not considered development?

And I’m sure if Jonah had been fully healthy last year but struggled people would be laying at least some of the blame on Pollack. So why doesn’t he get at least some of the credit?

(08-13-2022, 01:55 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I don’t think he’s on any kind of “pedestal.” I just think most rational people try and look at the context of what he’s working with. They were basically throwing shit at the wall last night, and hoping something stuck. That’s the only explanation for putting Prince at LT, Adeniji at RT, etc. The backup options look downright dreadful right now outside of a rookie Volson - who’s from a small school, and a complete unknown in D’Ante Smith - who can’t stay healthy.

Sure, I get they look dreadful. And maybe drafting those guys had nothing to do with Pollack, and maybe they are just bad players beyond repair. But at some point, imho one has to wonder how none of these guys could make a step towards getting a better player. That usually is not seen as being totally dissociated from the coaching staff.

Or put in other words, I have a hunch that if the OL coach wasn't such a high praised guy from day 1 and were just evaluated on his merits here, we'd have a different discussion about the O-Line and what needs to happen.

The coaches will learn what they needed from this game, a bad loss tells them more than a blow out win.
Seeing failure this early gives everyone time to evaluate solutions, plus of course it beats the inflated ego down.
Some things we already knew. QB backup is ugly. Online backups are a big drop off in talent. Neither are likely to be fixed this season. Money Mac is More Money Mac.

(08-13-2022, 02:07 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: But you all are making it impossible to bring up any examples with these kinds of qualifiers. Since when is working with a player in his 2nd season not considered development?

And I’m sure if Jonah had been fully healthy last year but struggled people would be laying at least some of the blame on Pollack. So why doesn’t he get at least some of the credit?

When that player was an All-Pro before you became the OL Coach. 

You didn't develop him into an All-Pro at that point, you inherited an All-Pro. There isn't a ton of "developing" to do after a guy is already an All-Pro before you get the job. What is he supposed to become? An All-Pro-er? You give me Travis Frederick, Zack Martin, Anthony Munoz, and Quentin Nelson all 2-3 years into their careers and I too can be an amazing NFL OL Coach if we're just counting inheriting All-Pros as "developing" guys.

Not to mention the two guys Frank Pollack has contributed to this team as the OL Coach through the draft are Billy Price and Jackson Carman.

(08-13-2022, 02:29 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote:  You give me Travis Frederick, Zack Martin, Anthony Munoz, and Quentin Nelson all 2-3 years into their careers and I too can be an amazing NFL OL Coach if we're just counting inheriting All-Pros as "developing" guys.

Pollack was working with Frederick and Martin from theri rookie seasons.

(08-13-2022, 02:02 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Pollack became OL Coach for the Cowboys in 2015....
Travis Frederick was 2nd Team All-Pro and a Pro Bowler in 2014.
Zack Martin was 1st Team All-Pro and a Pro Bowler in 2014.

Pollack was an O-line coach for the Cowboys from '13-'17.  He was working with those guys since their rookie seasons.

(08-13-2022, 02:29 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Not to mention the two guys Frank Pollack has contributed to this team as the OL Coach through the draft are Billy Price and Jackson Carman.

Neither of which were “his guys.” Price was a panic move by the team after missing out on Ragnow, and Mike Brown is the one who wanted Carman. He was literally consulting outside OL coaches to try and vouch for that pick. I doubt he would have felt the need to do that if Pollack was banging on the table for him.

(08-13-2022, 02:50 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote:  Mike Brown is the one who wanted Carman. He was literally consulting outside OL coaches to try and vouch for that pick.

This is ridiculous.

Mike Brown was told that we wanted to draft Carman so he asked Paul Alexander about him.  Mike Brown is not breaking down film on draft prospects and deciding who we take.

(08-13-2022, 02:45 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Pollack was working with Frederick and Martin from theri rookie seasons.

Right. And typically the assistant OL coach works a lot with the younger guys.

(08-13-2022, 02:53 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This is ridiculous.

Mike Brown was told that we wanted to draft Carman so he asked Paul Alexander about him.  Mike Brown is not breaking down film on draft prospects and deciding who we take.

From an SI article:

”Bengals Get Mike Brown’s Guy: An Inside Look at Their Pursuit of Jackson Carman”

Some may have been surprised that Cincinnati didn’t take Penei Sewell with the fifth overall pick on Thursday night, but former Bengals offensive line coach Paul Alexander says team owner Mike Brown zeroed in on Carman from the start.

https://www.si.com/nfl/bengals/allbengals-insiders-plus/bengals-get-mike-browns-guy-an-inside-look-at-their-pursuit-of-jackson-carman

Can you produce a single quote or article suggesting Carman was Pollack’s guy?

I think it’s pretty naive to believe Mike doesn’t still have final say on high draft picks.