(09-25-2022, 10:55 PM)Rubekahn29 Wrote: This thread is saying why the line has been referenced as playing horrible. The answer is simple, they played horrible, whether Joe also played bad is irrelevant to this thread. They all played better, and I hope that continues.

Well, people are still saying it after today’s game against the Jets, so that’s probably why Pistons is asking the question. He didn’t start this thread last week or the week before.

(09-25-2022, 10:57 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Well, people are still saying it after today’s game against the Jets, so that’s probably why Pistons is asking the question. He didn’t start this thread last week or the week before.

Correct.

(09-25-2022, 10:57 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Well, people are still saying it after today’s game against the Jets, so that’s probably why Pistons is asking the question. He didn’t start this thread last week or the week before.

I love how we’ve literally cycled through every excuse before getting to this post.

We went through
1.new line
2. Watt/parsons
3. On burrow

Then after all those didn’t land we say this. Honestly I haven’t seen anyone say we have a bad line after todays game. I’m sure there are some, but no one of any meaning.

(09-25-2022, 10:57 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Well, people are still saying it after today’s game against the Jets, so that’s probably why Pistons is asking the question. He didn’t start this thread last week or the week before.

Also, literally everything he referenced in his OP comes from weeks 1 and 2.

(09-25-2022, 11:01 PM)Rubekahn29 Wrote: I love how we’ve literally cycled through every excuse before getting to this post.

We went through
1.new line
2. Watt/parsons
3. On burrow

Then after all those didn’t land we say this. Honestly I haven’t seen anyone say we have a bad line after todays game. I’m sure there are some, but no one of any meaning.

I’ve seen several people still saying it. And apparently so has Pistons. I also have no idea what qualifies “someone of meaning.”

Anyway, if you want to label context as “excuses” I guess there’s really not much else to say.

(09-25-2022, 11:06 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I’ve seen several people still saying it. And apparently so has Pistons. I also have no idea what qualifies “someone of meaning.”

Anyway, if you want to ignore label context as “excuses” so I guess there’s really not much else to say.

Meaning, means not just some Joe Schmo troll on Twitter.

When you reach David Carr level records, context doesn’t really matter. A GOOD line doesn’t allow that many sacks whether it’s Joe, Brady or someone else. You’ve admitted they haven’t played well, so why is is out of bounds to say they played horrible, and since everything he referenced in his OP has to do with weeks 1 and 2, that’s where I was going.

(09-25-2022, 10:47 PM)Joelist Wrote: 7 out of the 15 sacks are per both PFF and other analysts on Burrow. The run game issues are part Mixon being hesitant and a step slow AND problematic run play design. Notice that once they put Perine in AND stopped trying to run stretch plays and instead went to the RG-RT gap all of a sudden they were moving the ball well against a defense that knew the run was coming.

8 sacks still isn't good. Obviously they were made to look worse by Burrows poor play coupled with bad Mixon/play calling. But they were far from being close to even okay. 

I totally agree with the terrible run calls and banged the drum multiple times this past week to run more to the right.

The narrative exists because we spent a truck of money on the Line in FA, and people were excited about the team addressing an issue. So excited, that I think people were expecting a top 5-10 line, with a huge drop off in sacks. The drop off in sacks obviously hasn't happened.

I said in week 1, the line will take some time to find its feet. They should have been more greatly prepared during the preseason games, but I think by the end of the season the line will be ok. Not world-beating, but capable enough. I think Burrow getting more time with these guys is absolutely paramount too. You can't change an entire group and expect it to be perfect from the off.

I was at the game yesterday. Watching Perine have success was interesting but it’s a lost cause to get a yard when the other team knows you need a yard. This team needs to get better fast. They have a long way to go. A lot was Joe’s missed time and the OL lack of continuity.

(09-25-2022, 10:28 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I keep reading over and over people say the line is horrible.

Let's examine:
-Volson has played well according to PFF.
- Collins and Williams have been good in previous years and are in their prime. They went against 2 top 5 edge rushers week 1.
-Karras and Cappa are solid.

There's also stats that shows Mixon gets less yardage than is blocked for.

We also see stats that show some sacks are on Burrow. It's his playing style.

Jonah has looked really bad at times, and as an offensive lineman, if you are solid the entire game but have three plays where you get your QB killed, you aren't good.  The inconsistency is maddening.  

I also put more on the coaches for the pathetic running scheme during most of the games.  At the end, when they said "we are going to run it", they were smashing the Jets' line and Perine was getting 5 YPC.  Sure, the Jets were worn out, but I sure liked what I saw there.  

I think to play to the team's strengths, and help protect Joe (Job 1!), they should open with a bunch of designed rubs, screens, and slants to negate the pass rush of an energized team at the start of a game.  Then, gradually open it up downfield when the safeties start to cheat up to stop the short stuff.  Lastly, when you have kept the other team's defense on the field for most of the game, try to salt it away with the run game.  

They literally give up a down every time they run the ball in the early to middle part of a game.  Why waste the down?  Just design quicker, shorter routes where you scheme guys open.  The Bills hardly ever run the ball.  I don't see anyone killing them for it. Sure, if it is 3rd and 1 or something like that, bring in the extra tackle and try to pound the ball for the first down.  

(09-25-2022, 10:28 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I keep reading over and over people say the line is horrible.

Let's examine:
-Volson has played well according to PFF.
- Collins and Williams have been good in previous years and are in their prime. They went against 2 top 5 edge rushers week 1.
-Karras and Cappa are solid.

There's also stats that shows Mixon gets less yardage than is blocked for.

We also see stats that show some sacks are on Burrow. It's his playing style.

I don;t need PFF to know our line played bad the first two games... I think it is as simple as that.  

We did play better in passing game against an inferior defense line (2 sacks coming in) but if our bar is to be a championship team is we can compete against inferior defenses and not good defenses we are destined for just being a good team on border of playoffs

(09-25-2022, 10:28 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: There's also stats that shows Mixon gets less yardage than is blocked for.

We also see stats that show some sacks are on Burrow. It's his playing style.

IMO, Mixon is dancing too much and Burrow is holding the ball too long.

(09-26-2022, 08:02 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Jonah has looked really bad at times, and as an offensive lineman, if you are solid the entire game but have three plays where you get your QB killed, you aren't good.  The inconsistency is maddening.  

I also put more on the coaches for the pathetic running scheme during most of the games.  At the end, when they said "we are going to run it", they were smashing the Jets' line and Perine was getting 5 YPC.  Sure, the Jets were worn out, but I sure liked what I saw there.  

I think to play to the team's strengths, and help protect Joe (Job 1!), they should open with a bunch of designed rubs, screens, and slants to negate the pass rush of an energized team at the start of a game.  Then, gradually open it up downfield when the safeties start to cheat up to stop the short stuff.  Lastly, when you have kept the other team's defense on the field for most of the game, try to salt it away with the run game.  

They literally give up a down every time they run the ball in the early to middle part of a game.  Why waste the down?  Just design quicker, shorter routes where you scheme guys open.  The Bills hardly ever run the ball.  I don't see anyone killing them for it. Sure, if it is 3rd and 1 or something like that, bring in the extra tackle and try to pound the ball for the first down.  

Exactly, that's one problem that's been left out of this thread. The opposing defense the 1st two games was given a leg up because they knew what was coming way more than they should.

Mixon has just been hot garbage and that has killed us and made the Oline look worse than they are. Joe Burrow started out with a hell of a funk and couldn't get back in the saddle making the Oline look worse than they are.

Communication issues on Oline have made them look worse than they are. 

I believe it will start getting better from here on.

Well the first 2 weeks they were


"Burrow was pressured 15 times Sunday against the Jets. For the three-game season, he’s been pressured on 32.9 percent of his pass attempts. That’s very likely unsustainable. Remember after the narrow loss to the Rams in the Super Bowl, when the Bengals absolutely, positively said they would take better care of Burrow? In 2021, he was pressured on 28.5 percent of his pass drops, so the fixes haven’t worked." -NextGenStats

(09-25-2022, 10:28 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I keep reading over and over people say the line is horrible.

Let's examine:
-Volson has played well according to PFF.
- Collins and Williams have been good in previous years and are in their prime. They went against 2 top 5 edge rushers week 1.
-Karras and Cappa are solid.

There's also stats that shows Mixon gets less yardage than is blocked for.

We also see stats that show some sacks are on Burrow. It's his playing style.

When you judge performance, do you judge based on history or current?

Yes, Williams and Collins have performed well in previous years, but there's no doubt they are underperforming so far this season.
Volson performed much better in Week 2 vs Week 1, but he wasn't going against good competition in Week 2. I want to see how he does over the course of the next month or so before I think he's solid-or-better.
Karras and Cappa are performing well, especially Karras.

Also, on the below PFF article, they talk about how every single OL in yesterday's game allowed multiple pressures. They don't think the OL is doing well, still.
https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-week-3-game-recap-cincinnati-bengals-27-new-york-jets-12

Our pressure percentage is middle of the pack. ie The offensive line isn't giving up an excessive amount of pressures. But, Burrow gets sacked off of that pressure at a league-leading rate:

'Teams are not blitzing Burrow—he’s been blitzed on 20 percent of his dropbacks, the fifth-lowest number in the league. Teams are not soundly beating the Bengals’ offensive line—though certainly, facing T.J. Watt and Micah Parsons in consecutive weeks to open the season has presented its challenges. Simply, when Burrow is pressured (on 31 percent of his dropbacks, a league-average number), he is getting sacked off of that pressure at a league-leading rate (38 percent).

This is the same sensation the Bengals experienced last season—Burrow had a league-average number of pressured dropbacks, but a league-high number of sacks. Burrow’s high sack numbers wouldn’t go away if the 2016 Cowboys’ offensive line was playing in front of him. This is his play style. He’s a gamer, a risk taker, an I-can-make-you-miss-er. This is who he is.'

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2022/9/23/23367966/cincinnati-bengals-offense-struggles-joe-burrow-zac-taylor

(09-25-2022, 10:46 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: But 4/5 are new guys (3 of them decent vets). The QB might be the common denominator here. Today Burrow was getting rid of the ball, and evading the pressure he did see, and that made all the difference.

The difference is the line played better and gave Burrow more time.  It's amazing how good Burrow can look when he has a little time to read a defense and throw the ball isn't it?

(09-25-2022, 10:44 PM)Rubekahn29 Wrote: Hey, I’m not disagreeing that is a new line, but 15 sacks is 15 sacks. I’m sure it’ll settle down, but no amount of twisting, turning, next gen, PFF grades, etc, is going to disprove that this has been a bad line to start the season.

The last guy to get sacked 13 times his first 2 games was David Carr. I don’t care if it’s 4 new linemen or not, that’s not good.


This week was a much better game from them.

Again, you're only showing that you REALLY don't understand about chemistry and that it's a new OL that had NEVER played a down together before being introduced to Watt.

Go look at the media-darling LAC who many picked to go to the SB who only missed one starting OL going into yesterday's game, had everybody else intact, got their LT hurt in the 3rd quarter and still got their QB hit a ton of times by the worst team in the league last season.

(09-25-2022, 11:01 PM)Rubekahn29 Wrote: I love how we’ve literally cycled through every excuse before getting to this post.

We went through
1.new line
2. Watt/parsons
3. On burrow

Then after all those didn’t land we say this. Honestly I haven’t seen anyone say we have a bad line after todays game. I’m sure there are some, but no one of any meaning.

Yet, here you are, arguing against the premise of the OP.

BTW, did anyone happen to notice that grueling, soul crushing drive that consumed over half of the 4th quarter, simply by handing the ball off to the same guy, over and over again?  Brought to you courtesy of our much maligned OL..

(09-26-2022, 10:13 AM)higgy100 Wrote: Again, you're only showing that you REALLY don't understand about chemistry and that it's a new OL that had NEVER played a down together before being introduced to Watt.

Go look at the media-darling LAC who many picked to go to the SB who only missed one starting OL going into yesterday's game, had everybody else intact, got their LT hurt in the 3rd quarter and still got their QB hit a ton of times by the worst team in the league last season.

And was still sacked 1 less time than Burrow was with a fully healthy line in their 3rd game together and what was considered their best game together. Not sure you’re helping yourself out here buddy.