Coach this team we have now would be elite.

He wouldn't of drafted half the players Zac did... or you can give credit to our GM

Locker room culture likely trash as well.

(10-18-2022, 05:33 PM)QueenCity Wrote: He wouldn't of drafted half the players Zac did... or you can give credit to our GM

Locker room culture likely trash as well.

I like Tobin, but there is no way he gets credit for drafting the types of players we have drafted since Taylor came here. Tobin was drafting while Marvin was here, and there was never the emphasis on Captains and players from Championship programs. Taylor brought that philosophy with him, and it's paying dividends big time.

Each coach has their strengths and weaknesses and although I liked Marvin Lewis and I'm grateful for how he brought the Bengals back to relevance, he and his coaching staff, we're not able to consistently make changes at the half to affect the game. That is the one thing that Zack Taylor does well and I think that's the difference.

(10-18-2022, 05:48 PM)Sled21 Wrote: I like Tobin, but there is no way he gets credit for drafting the types of players we have drafted since Taylor came here. Tobin was drafting while Marvin was here, and there was never the emphasis on Captains and players from Championship programs. Taylor brought that philosophy with him, and it's paying dividends big time.

I agree with your analysis,but,if only Mike Brown would just stay out of the picture,and let them do their jobs,that would be nice.

(10-18-2022, 05:33 PM)QueenCity Wrote: He wouldn't of drafted half the players Zac did... or you can give credit to our GM

Locker room culture likely trash as well.

Don't what you're trying to say here. He wouldn't have drafted Joe Burrow 1st overall? He did that with Carson. He wouldn't draft Chase 5th overall? He did that 4th overall with AJ Green.

I'm nowhere near a Marvin apologist as anyone on this board can attest, but outside of sucking enough to get really really high can't-miss 1st round draft picks a couple years, they haven't drafted crazy well in the Zac Taylor era.

The biggest difference between the Marvin and Taylor era is that the FO is willing to spend money in FA. 11 of the top 20 paid players on the Bengals this year (avg salary) are outside FAs, including the top-2 highest paid.

(10-18-2022, 05:26 PM)Marlon23 Wrote: Coach this team we have now would be elite.

You're basing this on....?

(10-18-2022, 05:48 PM)Sled21 Wrote: I like Tobin, but there is no way he gets credit for drafting the types of players we have drafted since Taylor came here. Tobin was drafting while Marvin was here, and there was never the emphasis on Captains and players from Championship programs. Taylor brought that philosophy with him, and it's paying dividends big time.

Tobin does a great job but I don’t think a lot of people realize he drafts the types of players the coaches want/ask for. He’s good at sorting through what they need to find the right guy but he’s building the rosters the coaches ask for. He’s not full on GM like we sometimes pretend.

If Marvin had this roster we would depend entirely on our coordinators. Our defense would probably be the same, our offense a little worse unless he lucked into a great OC. The team would have half the energy and passion that they do now and he’d still be trying to suck what little fire they had out. We also would have lost another WC game last year….

(10-18-2022, 06:21 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Don't what you're trying to say here. He wouldn't have drafted Joe Burrow 1st overall? He did that with Carson. He wouldn't draft Chase 5th overall? He did that 4th overall with AJ Green.

I'm nowhere near a Marvin apologist as anyone on this board can attest, but outside of sucking enough to get really really high can't-miss 1st round draft picks a couple years, they haven't drafted crazy well in the Zac Taylor era.

The biggest difference between the Marvin and Taylor era is that the FO is willing to spend money in FA. 11 of the top 20 paid players on the Bengals this year (avg salary) are outside FAs, including the top-2 highest paid.

Outside of Tee Higgins (who should never have fallen to the second, and was the first pick) he's been awful in the 2nd round. Talyor- Britt remains to be seen I suppose. Pretty sure Mike Brown, and his cheap labor were behind the bad Marvin "culture" too. Your last point is illustrated by the fact that our defense is bought and paid for.

Let it go

(10-18-2022, 05:54 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: Each coach has their strengths and weaknesses and although I liked Marvin Lewis and I'm grateful for how he brought the Bengals back to relevance, he and his coaching staff, we're not able to consistently make changes at the half to affect the game. That is the one thing that Zack Taylor does well and I think that's the difference.

This 

While Marvin was here, most posters were complaining about poor time management and lack of half-time adjustments. Not to mention not a single playoff victory. Last year, the Bengals were a second-half team and won three playoff games -- two as the away team. 

(10-18-2022, 06:46 PM)jason Wrote: Outside of Tee Higgins (who should never have fallen to the second, and was the first pick) he's been awful in the 2nd round. Talyor- Britt remains to be seen I suppose.  Pretty sure Mike Brown, and his cheap labor were behind the bad Marvin "culture" too. Your last point is illustrated by the fact that our defense is bought and paid for.

Pratt
Wilson
Shooter
Bailey
ADG
Kareem (in relief and entirely why we won the Denver game)
Ossai in flashes

Granted none of these were 2nd rounders but we can't act like they haven't done relatively well in the draft. Especially with LBs

(10-18-2022, 05:26 PM)Marlon23 Wrote: Coach this team we have now would be elite.

Are you basing this on playoff wins?

(10-18-2022, 05:26 PM)Marlon23 Wrote: Coach this team we have now would be elite.

Been feeling lonely lately?

Have no hate for Marvin per he did bring the Bengals out of the darkness and into the light.

Yet that is ancient history now and needs to be put to rest.

(10-18-2022, 06:21 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Don't what you're trying to say here. He wouldn't have drafted Joe Burrow 1st overall? He did that with Carson. He wouldn't draft Chase 5th overall? He did that 4th overall with AJ Green.

I'm nowhere near a Marvin apologist as anyone on this board can attest, but outside of sucking enough to get really really high can't-miss 1st round draft picks a couple years, they haven't drafted crazy well in the Zac Taylor era.

The biggest difference between the Marvin and Taylor era is that the FO is willing to spend money in FA. 11 of the top 20 paid players on the Bengals this year (avg salary) are outside FAs, including the top-2 highest paid.

I think those picks were no-brainers though.  Some of the later-round high-character guys and especially free-agent gems are what make this team.  Albeit the occasional misses here and there.  One of Zac's first order of business was cutting Burfict (one of my favorite players) and he wouldn't have drafted Thurman, Henry or signed Pac-man or Tez.  We were the laughing stock of the NFL for a stretch there with all of the arrests.  Marvin and co found some late-round gems too so I'll give them that.  But overall it was always the turds outweighing the good guys and in the end that always cost them.  Like the Steelers playoff meltdown

(10-18-2022, 05:33 PM)QueenCity Wrote: He wouldn't of drafted half the players Zac did... or you can give credit to our GM

Locker room culture likely trash as well.

He had a ton of great draft picks while he was here. Also he drafted two  HOF caliber players in Whitworth and Atkins,  saying that we wouldn't be good at drafting is a bit absurd.

(10-18-2022, 05:48 PM)Sled21 Wrote: I like Tobin, but there is no way he gets credit for drafting the types of players we have drafted since Taylor came here. Tobin was drafting while Marvin was here, and there was never the emphasis on Captains and players from Championship programs. Taylor brought that philosophy with him, and it's paying dividends big time.

This is an odd statement.  1.) Duke runs every  draft 2.) Duke philosophy in drafting players has been pretty  consistent over this past decade.

(10-18-2022, 06:21 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Don't what you're trying to say here. He wouldn't have drafted Joe Burrow 1st overall? He did that with Carson. He wouldn't draft Chase 5th overall? He did that 4th overall with AJ Green.

I'm nowhere near a Marvin apologist as anyone on this board can attest, but outside of sucking enough to get really really high can't-miss 1st round draft picks a couple years, they haven't drafted crazy well in the Zac Taylor era.

The biggest difference between the Marvin and Taylor era is that the FO is willing to spend money in FA. 11 of the top 20 paid players on the Bengals this year (avg salary) are outside FAs, including the top-2 highest paid.

Yep Marvin never really had the freedom to attack free agency like Duke and Zac have.

(10-18-2022, 10:07 PM)Big_Ern Wrote: I think those picks were no-brainers though.  Some of the later-round high-character guys and especially free-agent gems are what make this team.  Albeit the occasional misses here and there.  One of Zac's first order of business was cutting Burfict (one of my favorite players) and he wouldn't have drafted Thurman, Henry or signed Pac-man or Tez.  We were the laughing stock of the NFL for a stretch there with all of the arrests.  Marvin and co found some late-round gems too so I'll give them that.  But overall it was always the turds outweighing the good guys and in the end that always cost them.  Like the Steelers playoff meltdown

It's a whole lot easier to pass on high talent high risk players if your FO is shelling out money for tons of decent/good outside FA signings. If you're exclusively having to build your team out of drafted players/UDFAs/extremely cheap bottom-of-the-barrel FAs/redemption project FAs, you have to make some compromises if you want enough talent to compete with other teams.

Pacman was signed for under $600k/yr, Burfict was signed for under $500k/yr. The Bengals don't have that playoff appearance streak without them because the alternative wasn't going out and signing Chidobe Awuzie or Vonn Bell caliber players, it was likely having Brandon Ghee and JK Schaffer being starters instead.

Bengals never even stood a chance to win that Steelers playoff game without Burfict. 1 Sack, 2 TFL, 1 PDef, 1 INT, 1 FF... holding the 4th scoring offense to 18 points despite the Bengals offense scoring 0 points for the first 46 minutes while giving the Steelers the ball 4 times that directly led to 9 of those 18 points.

Swap Zac for Marvin in that first playoff game against the Raiders, and I wonder how the Bengals would have lost. I don't remember what happened with the timeouts, but Marvin would almost certainly waste them on frivolous first quarter nonsense. Joe Burrow would still do everything he could to drag the team forward, and maybe it'd be enough. That would be the ultimate contrast of a Big Game Player and a Small Game Coach. I want to say there'd be some classic disaster moment that ruins everything. Maybe there's a significant late-game penalty, and the cracks in the locker room culture boil over as the team implodes (not necessarily 2015-16 style, just a more general collapse from a team that cannot overcome adversity).

(10-18-2022, 10:36 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: It's a whole lot easier to pass on high talent high risk players if your FO is shelling out money for tons of decent/good outside FA signings. If you're exclusively having to build your team out of drafted players/UDFAs/extremely cheap bottom-of-the-barrel FAs/redemption project FAs, you have to make some compromises if you want enough talent to compete with other teams.

Pacman was signed for under $600k/yr, Burfict was signed for under $500k/yr. The Bengals don't have that playoff appearance streak without them because the alternative wasn't going out and signing Chidobe Awuzie or Vonn Bell caliber players, it was likely having Brandon Ghee and JK Schaffer being starters instead.

Bengals never even stood a chance to win that Steelers playoff game without Burfict. 1 Sack, 2 TFL, 1 PDef, 1 INT, 1 FF... holding the 4th scoring offense to 18 points despite the Bengals offense scoring 0 points for the first 46 minutes while giving the Steelers the ball 4 times that directly led to 9 of those 18 points.

Antwan Odom and the receiver that tore his knee day 1 come to mind.  Delta and Tory James came in an played great, as well as Chido and Hilton likely.  Roy Williams had some good years and John Thornton.  Sam Adams.  I think the current regime did a better job scouting and vetting good fits in FA.