(11-05-2022, 04:58 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: people bashed Spain for his postseason play where he was clearly playing hurt(like Jonah is), but he was a good guard. I really dont care if Volson sometime puts up a good pff grade, Volson, to me, is a clear downgrade

Jonah was mediocre last year and was terrible this year well before he got hurt. Im not giving him a pass for his knee. 

Volson has been average to below average. Agree that Spain was really good last year until the playoffs. 

I took a stab at adjusting the 2021 numbers to align with the snaps taken in 2022 (24.8% more):

The other adjustment was adding together Sua-Filo and Carman as both played RG where this year that has been solely Cappa. 

The first three are just the two season and then 2021 adjusted to match snaps. The fourth is simply subtracting last year from this year to give a broad comparison. In this table negative numbers are good things. 

OL Chart

Not really surprised honestly with 4 new OL and 1 a rookie trying to learn to work together all the while La'el
and Jonah battling through injuries and factoring in the pass rushers we had to face early...

I think we will get much better and by the season's end be much better than the one going into the Playoffs
last season barring injuries. We will see, but I think this is a safe bet. It isn't nearly as good of an OL as I
thought it would be by this time but not playing them in the preseason hurt in the gelling process.

(11-05-2022, 06:09 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Not really surprised honestly with 4 new OL and 1 a rookie trying to learn to work together all the while La'el  
and Jonah battling through injuries and factoring in the pass rushers we had to face early...

I think we will get much better and by the season's end be much better than the one going into the Playoffs
last season barring injuries. We will see, but I think this is a safe bet. It isn't nearly as good of an OL as I
thought it would be by this time but not playing them in the preseason hurt in the gelling process.

the problem with your theory is we could argue alot of the same with the 2021 team.   Carman and Rieff totally new, Spain was traded to Bengals in mid season in 2020 barely played with Williams since he was out last part of season, then Filo played a few games with Williams and Spain before he got hurt.  So the 2021 line had zero games together as a group coming in and only outside of Hopkins and Williams played more than a few games together.... 

(11-05-2022, 02:12 PM)TheFan Wrote: How is Reiff the answer but Collins is trash when Reiff gave up more sacks and basically the same amount of hurries/pressures as Collins in 60 less snaps? Spain vs Volson has by far been the biggest difference between the two, looking at the stats. 

Williams has been trash this year and looking at the stats from our first 8 last year he was trash last year as well. 

Chill, where did I say Collins was trash ?  Only said he and Volson started slow but that was earlier. But did say Jonah was a major problem that I did not see coming. 

In fact I wanted Reiff because he is versatile enough to play Guard or Tackle. Said he should be for depth since he was getting long in the tooth but most everybody else wanted Spain and most still do. 

But yes imo the O-line played much better with Reiff last season and bet they would play much better this season if he were on the bench and could fill in for Jonah.

Maybe I'm wrong but really don't recall you beating the drum to replace Jonah in the off season,  yet now you throw it out there 
so matter of factly ?

(11-05-2022, 05:17 PM)TheFan Wrote: Jonah was mediocre last year and was terrible this year well before he got hurt. Im not giving him a pass for his knee. 

Volson has been average to below average. Agree that Spain was really good last year until the playoffs. 

Odd he can not even find a job with just about all 32 teams needing help or better depth , and sorry but the playoffs are where it really counts.

(11-05-2022, 08:17 PM)Go Cards Wrote: Chill, where did I say Collins was trash ?  Only said he and Volson started slow but that was earlier. But did say Jonah was a major problem that I did not see coming. 

In fact I wanted Reiff because he is versatile enough to play Guard or Tackle. Said he should be for depth since he was getting long in the tooth but most everybody else wanted Spain and most still do. 

But yes imo the O-line played much better with Reiff last season and bet they would play much better this season if he were on the bench and could fill in for Jonah.

Maybe I'm wrong but really don't recall you beating the drum to replace Jonah in the off season,  yet now you throw it out there 
so matter of factly ?

Me either 

I mean I didn't think he was gonna be all-pro. But I did believe he would be solid/touch above average. Never would have believed he'd be the borderline hot garbage he's been.

And I agree with the LeonardLeap. Collins had been worse than those stats say. Hell Watt and Parsons got those stats in the first two games facing him.

(11-05-2022, 08:17 PM)Go Cards Wrote: Chill, where did I say Collins was trash ?  Only said he and Volson started slow but that was earlier. But did say Jonah was a major problem that I did not see coming. 

In fact I wanted Reiff because he is versatile enough to play Guard or Tackle. Said he should be for depth since he was getting long in the tooth but most everybody else wanted Spain and most still do. 

But yes imo the O-line played much better with Reiff last season and bet they would play much better this season if he were on the bench and could fill in for Jonah.

Maybe I'm wrong but really don't recall you beating the drum to replace Jonah in the off season,  yet now you throw it out there 
so matter of factly ?

You didn't, sorry wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. Frank did though and you agreed with what he was saying so that's what I was responding to with that statement. 

I agree with the rest of what you said. 

I wasn't trying to say I did - Although I know I did have posts where I said he was average at best. Looking at the stats Trademark posted though he was obviously just as bad last year though as he's been this year, through 8 at least. 

(11-05-2022, 08:24 PM)Go Cards Wrote: Odd he can not even find a job with just about all 32 teams needing help or better depth , and sorry but the playoffs are where it really counts.

He suffered an ankle injury in week 17 against the Browns. No idea how much that effected his play but giving how poor he looked following the injury I think that could be part of why he played so poorly. Obviously the massive jump in competition for playoffs vs regular season may have played a part as well. 

last year's OL took us to the superbowl, we'll see where this one takes us.

(11-05-2022, 08:46 AM)BengalsRocker Wrote: Shouldn't this ultimately result in the firing of Pollack?

The team supposedly upgraded the line's talent but yet they backslid.

Zac Taylor’s job isn’t in jeopardy by any means.If it was,then somebody would have to get the axe because of all the chaos with this OL.Anyone not named Zac Taylor.That’s just how it works.But,I wouldn’t be too surprised if they were to fire Pollack since they devoted such a large amount of their resources to this OL.

But remember,this is the Bengals.

As a follow up to the post I did earlier where I mathed out the 2021 and 2022 line stats to make them comparable, you see the following:

1) Center is a HUGE improvement this year. Sacks, hits and pressures all dropped and the 3 additional hurries are what they are (as hurries are a VERY subjective stat).

2) Likewise, RG is a big upgrade. While it picked up three sacks (and with PFFs weird habit of misaligning sacks who knows) everything else is far lower.

3) Even RT despite the complaints is better this year. Sacks, hurries and pressures are all lower with a couple more hits.

4) LG is definitely worse this year but again this was to be expected with a rookie. And most of the bad stuff occurred in the first three games.

5) LT is a definite problem. Yes Jonah is playing hurt but that also is an indictment of the coaching for not either sitting him until he is not hampered so much or putting a helper next to him all the time.

So, the stats do not tell the story that the 2022 is just universally worse.

(11-06-2022, 12:52 AM)Joelist Wrote: As a follow up to the post I did earlier where I mathed out the 2021 and 2022 line stats to make them comparable, you see the following:

1) Center is a HUGE improvement this year. Sacks, hits and pressures all dropped and the 3 additional hurries are what they are (as hurries are a VERY subjective stat).

2) Likewise, RG is a big upgrade. While it picked up three sacks (and with PFFs weird habit of misaligning sacks who knows) everything else is far lower.

3) Even RT despite the complaints is better this year. Sacks, hurries and pressures are all lower with a couple more hits.

4) LG is definitely worse this year but again this was to be expected with a rookie. And most of the bad stuff occurred in the first three games.

5) LT is a definite problem. Yes Jonah is playing hurt but that also is an indictment of the coaching for not either sitting him until he is not hampered so much or putting a helper next to him all the time.

So, the stats do not tell the story that the 2022 is just universally worse.

I don't think it's really a matter of being worse. More a matter of not a lot of improvement for big $$$$$$ being shelled out. 

(11-06-2022, 10:13 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I don't think it's really a matter of being worse. More a matter of not a lot of improvement for big $$$$$$ being shelled out. 

yep we definitely have not gotten the $70 million upgrade we thought we would see. 

Hopefully it turns around somehow and improves, certainly they've  had time to gel and it is overdue.  

(11-05-2022, 09:43 PM)TheFan Wrote: You didn't, sorry wasn't trying to put words in your mouth. Frank did though and you agreed with what he was saying so that's what I was responding to with that statement. 

I agree with the rest of what you said. 

I wasn't trying to say I did - Although I know I did have posts where I said he was average at best. Looking at the stats Trademark posted though he was obviously just as bad last year though as he's been this year, through 8 at least. 

sorry for slow reply and getting curt, working a ton of hours this weekend 

(11-05-2022, 10:20 PM)Bengalitis Wrote: last year's OL took us to the superbowl, we'll see where this one takes us.

The OL is what took us to the superbowl? You really want to ride with that statement? 

(11-06-2022, 10:45 AM)TheFan Wrote: The OL is what took us to the superbowl? You really want to ride with that statement? 

Yeah, in spite of the holes it had, it got us to the super bow. I suspect that that pressure is probably what made Burrow more accurate and better. His adrenaline must of been off the charts.

We didn't go because of the OL,  but it did get us there.

I have been wondering recently how much Drew Sample's absence has been affecting pass protection and run blocking issues.  I don't have any visual analysis to make a case, but he certainly wasn't a starter because of his receiving prowess.  

(11-06-2022, 11:27 AM)ElkValleyBengal Wrote: I have been wondering recently how much Drew Sample's absence has been affecting pass protection and run blocking issues.  I don't have any visual analysis to make a case, but he certainly wasn't a starter because of his receiving prowess.  

They sure didn't need his ass today. 

(11-05-2022, 07:12 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: the problem with your theory is we could argue alot of the same with the 2021 team.   Carman and Rieff totally new, Spain was traded to Bengals in mid season in 2020 barely played with Williams since he was out last part of season, then Filo played a few games with Williams and Spain before he got hurt.  So the 2021 line had zero games together as a group coming in and only outside of Hopkins and Williams played more than a few games together.... 

Well, the problem with your theory is Carman was switched to the right side of the Line where he was uncomfortable, Rieff
was old and injury prone, Spain was good in the regular season, got hurt and played terrible in the postseason, this OL is 
trying to adapt to different schemes, from wide zone to gap etc.

They showed up today, the only sack was from Jonah and he still is playing through the torn knee cap and he actually still
played well today and led Mixon to his first TD of the day.

(11-06-2022, 07:26 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: They sure didn't need his ass today. 

Wilcox was battling, I like this dude.