(01-13-2023, 09:55 AM)Bengalitis Wrote: I think Lou can run a team better and hire the right coaches and stratagize better. As for play calling, I don't like Zac making the calls. Remember, nobody wanted to work for Zac until Lou came and created the best bengals D ever and he's done way better with his side than Zac and Callahan put together.

First of all Zac and Lou coached together at the Dolphins. Lou was who Zac wanted all along but ownership wanted him to hire someone with coordinator experience and even head coaching experience. Zac put this staff together and he’s the architect of this entire turnaround. Duke Tobin has done a great job but he was here when the Bengals sucked. He was running the front office then. It’s Zac who turned it around.

It’s Zac who has changed the culture, put this staff together, and had the front office sign in free agency high character and hard workers and the same in the draft.

(01-12-2023, 03:03 PM)Bronxbengal Wrote: There are five head coaching jobs available right now.  Does anyone know if Lou is being considered as a candidate for any of them?  

Lou is one hell of a coach!  He is coaching up the young talent and providing the right leadership for the experienced players.  IMO he is one of the best if not the best defensive coaches we ever had.  That statement includes Dick Labeau


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Actually 4, because Sean Payton is going to take one of them.

(01-13-2023, 10:11 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: First of all Zac and Lou coached together at the Dolphins. Lou was who Zac wanted all along but ownership wanted him to hire someone with coordinator experience and even head coaching experience. Zac put this staff together and he’s the architect of this entire turnaround. Duke Tobin has done a great job but he was here when the Bengals sucked. He was running the front office then. It’s Zac who turned it around.

It’s Zac who has changed the culture, put this staff together, and had the front office sign in free agency high character and hard workers and the same in the draft.

Zac has changed the culture, that's his biggest contribution, Marvin's soft management and shady character players is gone. Lou is way better imo.

(01-13-2023, 10:11 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: First of all Zac and Lou coached together at the Dolphins. Lou was who Zac wanted all along but ownership wanted him to hire someone with coordinator experience and even head coaching experience. Zac put this staff together and he’s the architect of this entire turnaround. Duke Tobin has done a great job but he was here when the Bengals sucked. He was running the front office then. It’s Zac who turned it around.

It’s Zac who has changed the culture, put this staff together, and had the front office sign in free agency high character and hard workers and the same in the draft.

If true, then all those DC interviews were pointless because Zac wasn't going to hire them anyway. I don't remember it going down like that though, as IIRC, potential DC's were turning Zac down. But I could be wrong.

(01-13-2023, 10:16 AM)Bengalitis Wrote: Zac has changed the culture, that's his biggest contribution, Marvin's soft management and shady character players is gone. Lou is way better imo.

Certainty Lou has been huge in the turnaround. But Zac saw his potential and hired him and gets out of his way. But to minimized what Zac has done is just pure bias.

(01-12-2023, 08:12 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Strong disagree. 

Zimmer never had the talent given to him that Anarumo has. He had to make do with defenses starting Chris Crocker, Tank Johnson, Roy Williams, Terrance Newman, Dhani Jones, Nate Clements, Thomas Howard, Manny Lawson, Kelly Jennings, etc.

Miss on a draft pick? Well, I guess you're screwed, because it's either them or a garbage heap low cost FA/redemption project.

Meanwhile Anarumo they go out and sign Reader, Hendrickson, Awuzie, Hilton, Ogunjobi, Bell... all of whom I believe each got a bigger deal than any defensive outside FA I can think of under Zimmer's entire time here.

The reason they withered in the bright lights? Because in the bright lights you're playing better players, and you can only scheme to cover up having Chris Crocker and Tank Johnson so much before it becomes clear they're less talented than the guys you're going against.

This is a little disingenuous, and don't be hacking on my boys Crocker and TNew. Crocker was always good for coming in off the couch and playing well, and Newman was exceptional. It's funny you mention guys like Tank Johnson and Roy Williams, but totally forget about the Fisher Price crew of Carlos Dunlap, Michael Johnson, Geno Atkins, Domata Peko, Wallace Gilberry, Leon Hall, Jonathan Joseph, etc. I'm a huge fan of Mike Zimmer, but to act like he had no talent to work with it totally wrong. 

(01-13-2023, 09:55 AM)Bengalitis Wrote: I think Lou can run a team better and hire the right coaches and stratagize better. As for play calling, I don't like Zac making the calls. Remember, nobody wanted to work for Zac until Lou came and created the best bengals D ever and he's done way better with his side than Zac and Callahan put together.

Zac and Brian this year are ranked 7th in points per game, 8th in yards per game,  7th in points per play, 3rd in 3rd down conversions, 5th in Red Zone scoring, and 6th in Touchdowns per game. That's top 10 in 6 of 8 catagories.

Cincinnati Bengals: Results, Picks, Power Rankings, Odds & Stats on TeamRankings.com

(01-13-2023, 10:32 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Zac and Brian this year are ranked 7th in points per game, 8th in yards per game,  7th in points per play, 3rd in 3rd down conversions, 5th in Red Zone scoring, and 6th in Touchdowns per game. That's top 10 in 6 of 8 catagories.

Cincinnati Bengals: Results, Picks, Power Rankings, Odds & Stats on TeamRankings.com

That's a very base way to look at the offense. 

The Bengals are ranked nearly dead last in playaction, they rank near last in motions, they rarely run screens, and aare around middle of the league in RPOs... not to mention a bottom rushing offense.

The offensive scheme is alot more simple than the defense. Zac and Callahan are basically asking Joe Burrow to go out and be perfect every snap. I know "winning" supposedly cures all but the offense scheme isn't nothing to write home about.

(01-13-2023, 10:38 AM)Synric Wrote: That's a very base way to look at the offense. 

The Bengals are ranked nearly dead last in playaction, they rank near last in motions, they rarely run screens, and aare around middle of the league in RPOs... not to mention a bottom rushing offense.

The offensive scheme is alot more simple than the defense. Zac and Callahan are basically asking Joe Burrow to go out and be perfect every snap. I know "winning" supposedly cures all but the offense scheme isn't nothing to write home about.

I wouldn't care if they ran one play, over and over, never ran a play action or screen, as long as they are putting points on the board. That's all that matters. What they are doing is working, you don't fix what's not broken. 

(01-13-2023, 10:25 AM)Sled21 Wrote: This is a little disingenuous, and don't be hacking on my boys Crocker and TNew. Crocker was always good for coming in off the couch and playing well, and Newman was exceptional. It's funny you mention guys like Tank Johnson and Roy Williams, but totally forget about the Fisher Price crew of Carlos Dunlap, Michael Johnson, Geno Atkins, Domata Peko, Wallace Gilberry, Leon Hall, Jonathan Joseph, etc. I'm a huge fan of Mike Zimmer, but to act like he had no talent to work with it totally wrong. 

Were Crocker or Newman good outside of Zimmer's scheme? Michael Johnson and Peko were mid at best and nowhere near as good as their Sam Hubbard and DJ Reader modern equivalents. 

Trey Hendrickson has 35.5 sacks in the last 3 seasons. Gilberry has 34.0 career sacks in 9 years. Robert Geathers has 34.0 career sacks in 11 years. Sam Hubbard only needs 14.0 sacks over the next 5 years to match Michael Johnson.

JJo left because the FO got cheap on guaranteed money and they then kept trying (and failing) to replace him. Leon Hall tore his achilles twice in Zimmer's time here and became a shell of his former self, he only had a 3-4 year span of actually being Leon Hall. The Bengals still kept trotting out a top defense.

I never said Zimmer had no talent to work with, I am saying that he never had the FO's support in free agency to give him the same level of talent to work with that Anarumo has been given, yet still routinely produced top-10 defenses. He had a top-10 defense with the Bengals before Dunlap and Atkins were even in the NFL and before Reggie Nelson got traded for peanuts to the Bengals.

The only players on the Bengals defense during that timespan that were clearly superior in talent to their modern counterparts are Geno Atkins, Vontaze Burfict (he was only there for the final 2 years of Zimmer, and that was when he was 2nd Team All-Pro), and Reggie Nelson. That's a 4th round pick, a UDFA, and a guy that was traded to the Bengals for David Jones.

(01-12-2023, 07:38 PM)Big_Ern Wrote: Has that ever happened?

Yes, Paul Alexander.

(01-13-2023, 01:51 AM)Vas Deferens Wrote: So you’re not going to be surprised or maybe be surprised?   Am I doing the statement-non-statement-right-wrong?

BOO!

Surprise!

I would be surprised if Callahan left for another OC job, which is the quote I responded to and quoted. I wouldn't be surprised if they both stayed or if one got a HC gig. 

The Bengals are 20-7 over their last 27 games ( threw out the season finale with the Browns) That has to be as good as anybody. The entire FO and entire staff all contributed. Some of you minimize this and the significance

(01-13-2023, 10:55 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Were Crocker or Newman good outside of Zimmer's scheme? Michael Johnson and Peko were mid at best and nowhere near as good as their Sam Hubbard and DJ Reader modern equivalents. 

Trey Hendrickson has 35.5 sacks in the last 3 seasons. Gilberry has 34.0 career sacks in 9 years. Robert Geathers has 34.0 career sacks in 11 years. Sam Hubbard only needs 14.0 sacks over the next 5 years to match Michael Johnson.

JJo left because the FO got cheap on guaranteed money and they then kept trying (and failing) to replace him. Leon Hall tore his achilles twice in Zimmer's time here and became a shell of his former self, he only had a 3-4 year span of actually being Leon Hall. The Bengals still kept trotting out a top defense.

I never said Zimmer had no talent to work with, I am saying that he never had the FO's support in free agency to give him the same level of talent to work with that Anarumo has been given, yet still routinely produced top-10 defenses. He had a top-10 defense with the Bengals before Dunlap and Atkins were even in the NFL and before Reggie Nelson got traded for peanuts to the Bengals.

The only players on the Bengals defense during that timespan that were clearly superior in talent to their modern counterparts are Geno Atkins, Vontaze Burfict (he was only there for the final 2 years of Zimmer, and that was when he was 2nd Team All-Pro), and Reggie Nelson. That's a 4th round pick, a UDFA, and a guy that was traded to the Bengals for David Jones.

Doesn't matter if they were good outside of Zimmer's scheme, because they played in that scheme and were good in it. ZImmer called Peko in his prime THE best NT in the game. Hall was outstanding. You wouldn't say Dunlap in his prime was a superior talent? 
Look, I'm not saying Zimmer wasn't good, he was one of my favorite coaches. That said, I don't believe his players played as hard for him as Lou's do for him. And I truly think Lou and his coaches are much better at developing the backups all the way down the depth chart than any Bengal coach ever on either side of the ball.

I don't see Lou going anywhere. His personality doesn't scream "head coach" to me and he's not a sexy enough hire for a lot of teams around the league.

How do you think the public perception from Bears fans/media would be if a team like them hires a DC from Cincinnati as their head coach?

(01-13-2023, 10:11 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: First of all Zac and Lou coached together at the Dolphins. Lou was who Zac wanted all along but ownership wanted him to hire someone with coordinator experience and even head coaching experience. Zac put this staff together and he’s the architect of this entire turnaround. Duke Tobin has done a great job but he was here when the Bengals sucked. He was running the front office then. It’s Zac who turned it around.

It’s Zac who has changed the culture, put this staff together, and had the front office sign in free agency high character and hard workers and the same in the draft.

A lot of the turnaround could also be attributed to Zac being allowed to have a bigger voice in matters with Katie running the show, than other coaches were under Mike Brown.

(01-13-2023, 10:11 AM)Soonerpeace Wrote: First of all Zac and Lou coached together at the Dolphins. Lou was who Zac wanted all along but ownership wanted him to hire someone with coordinator experience and even head coaching experience. Zac put this staff together and he’s the architect of this entire turnaround. Duke Tobin has done a great job but he was here when the Bengals sucked. He was running the front office then. It’s Zac who turned it around.

It’s Zac who has changed the culture, put this staff together, and had the front office sign in free agency high character and hard workers and the same in the draft.

Duke had A LOT of success before ZT got here. 

(01-12-2023, 08:12 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Strong disagree. 

Zimmer never had the talent given to him that Anarumo has. He had to make do with defenses starting Chris Crocker, Tank Johnson, Roy Williams, Terrance Newman, Dhani Jones, Nate Clements, Thomas Howard, Manny Lawson, Kelly Jennings, etc.

Miss on a draft pick? Well, I guess you're screwed, because it's either them or a garbage heap low cost FA/redemption project.

Meanwhile Anarumo they go out and sign Reader, Hendrickson, Awuzie, Hilton, Ogunjobi, Bell... all of whom I believe each got a bigger deal than any defensive outside FA I can think of under Zimmer's entire time here.

The reason they withered in the bright lights? Because in the bright lights you're playing better players, and you can only scheme to cover up having Chris Crocker and Tank Johnson so much before it becomes clear they're less talented than the guys you're going against.

- - - - -

Honestly even the OP is hella disrespectful with calling Lou the best DC this team has ever had. This year is Lou's first year having a defense in the top-16 (above average) in points allowed. That's 1/4 years being above average and 3/4 being below average.

Mike Zimmer was here 6 years and the Bengals were a top-10 scoring defense in 4 of them. They were top-7 in yards allowed in 4 of those 6 years, too.

The only two years where the Bengals didn't have a top-10 defense was Zimmer's first year, when they improved from being 27th in yards and 24th in points to 12th in yards and 19th in points, and 2010 when the whole team was a shitshow.

I'm looking at Dunlap, Dre K, the Atkins steal, Johnson, Burfict, Mauluga, Hall, Joseph, Nelson, Peko, hell even old man Newman, and some others I'm forgetting for sure. Some of those guys faded as the game progressed, but that's a lot of talent and some high draft picks. 

Some of those new FAs we got resurrected their careers here, Apple, Chido, Ogunjobi had a nice year...etc. This defense comes up big against that better opponent you alluded to in your defense of the Zimmer led defenses that wilted. Now, being fair to Mike, a lot of that might've been due to Marvin. That's admittedly speculation though.

I would definitely not consider Lou to be better than HoFer Dick LeBeau. He doesn't get the season stats that Zimmer got either, so there's a debate there. 

I'll close with this though.... playing meaningful games in January and February, who's defense would you rather have out there and have the most faith in? Zimmer's or Lou's? Just look at the Raiders game....do we make a game sealing INT with Zims bunch, or choke away the game? I'm going with this unit, regular season stats be damned. 

(01-13-2023, 10:15 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Actually 4, because Sean Payton is going to take one of them.

And maybe harbaugh.

The thing that wilk keep Lou in Cincy longer is there are less opportunities for defensive head coaches. Most of these front offices want to pair up an Offensive Coach with a young Quarterback so it can last a while.