(03-14-2023, 01:28 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: You are most likely trying to show the light to someone that doesn't want to see it.

Probably correct.

(03-14-2023, 01:28 PM)NotBigzo Wrote: We're not getting Higgins anyway.

Which is fine, it'd be stupid to to pay him his worth when we already have a franchise qb and WR without him.

Yep Pistons, you are correct lol

(03-14-2023, 01:29 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: IF Higgins leaves, will you start a thread talking about how terrible it is that we didn't keep him?

Probably. 

(03-14-2023, 01:33 PM)Wyche Wrote: Don't you dare come in here with facts and common sense.

For sure, don't want that around here. If anything, this all could make us press a bit. I don't want to see us act desperate like the OP is...

We will see in about a week where we stand. There are tons of quality players still out there to fill our needs and we have a stud Safety 
in the wings in Daxton Hill, I know he didn't play the best last year as a rookie but he needs snaps to grow in the NFL. I seriously think he
can be better than Jessie Bates who I wanted us to draft before we drafted him.

We traded up for Tycen Anderson who is extremely fast for a dude 6'4" with great range. So we have range with both Dax and Tycen and
can add a vet to mentor and be a rock for us. Smarts is what we lost and that is my only concern. Bell namely is really smart.

(03-14-2023, 01:38 PM)Wyche Wrote: ....and the safety market is slower than most right now.

Jordan Poyer is 31. Might be a nice 1-2 year stopgap if he'd come here.

(03-14-2023, 01:41 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Jordan Poyer is 31. Might be a nice 1-2 year stopgap if he'd come here.

Poyer was playing with an injury as well last year, so his play was down because of it. Could be cheaper because of this.

(03-14-2023, 11:48 AM)NotBigzo Wrote: Seriously.

How do we lose TWO starting safeties in day one, especially knowing that we're out of the market for one of them?

"We want to go younger" is just a euphemism for "we want to be cheap skates". Vonn Bell and Bates is what got us to the SB two years ago, LITERALLY. Look at that overtime interception.

If the Bengals decide to pay for one of the remaining good ones, it's STILL a downgrade. But I get a feeling that they're just fine with Tycen Anderson, which will be a disaster against the Bills and the Cheifs.

The Bengals can't afford to have its episodes of buttcheek offense anymore. The Defense won't be top 10 next season.

This feels a like more like a decline. The Bills and Cheifs addressed core issues day one. Bengals objectively are worse off.

1) FA isn't over yet. 

2) For the first time in the Burrow era, we really have to worry about the cap.  Guys are coming off first contracts (with us) and rookie deals. We have big money extensions on the horizon for Higgins (2024), Logan Wilson (2024), Burrow (2025), and Chase (2026). Guys we sign now to 3 year deals will overlap with ALL those extensions. Paying player X may lose you player Y. We have to prioritize guys. Before, we could just pay people. Now, we cannot. 

3) Most people with half a brain got this going into FA. Everyone knew Bates was gone. No surprise there. Most expected Pratt to leave, but he stayed! And most expected Bell to stay, and he left. I don't get how swapping one for the other (and keeping the younger, better olayer at that) makes this such a disaster.

4) Though I think Bell was worth the money Carolina paid, I think we have done a good job prioritizing the right positions. QB, WR, and OT on offense and DE, CB, and DT on D are the most valuable positions. We have 12 guys on the team making $6 mil or more a year. 10 of them play those positions: Burrow, Chase, Boyd, Williams, Collins, Hendrickson, Hubbard, Awuzie, Reader, & BJ Hill. 2 do not: Cappa (OG) & Mixon (RB). 

We paid our safeties $20 mil last year (or close to it). Bates & Bell will be $23 mil this year. We just did not want to invest that type of money at the position. Bates would have been the highest paid player on the team. And Bell is signing his 3rd contract. Something I think we are wary of after the end of the Marvin era. 

Definitely can't agree OP. Nobody wanted to lose both safeties, but Bates at that cost... good luck Atlanta. Losing Bell sucked, but the trade off there may be keeping Pratt instead. We did draft in preparation for this, the guys we drafted get to show their stuff, no point in those picks otherwise.

(03-14-2023, 01:46 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: 1) FA isn't over yet. 

2) For the first time in the Burrow era, we really have to worry about the cap.  Guys are coming off first contracts (with us) and rookie deals. We have big money extensions on the horizon for Higgins (2024), Logan Wilson (2024), Burrow (2025), and Chase (2026). Guys we sign now to 3 year deals will overlap with ALL those extensions. Paying player X may lose you player Y. We have to prioritize guys. Before, we could just pay people. Now, we cannot. 

3) Most people with half a brain got this going into FA. Everyone knew Bates was gone. No surprise there. Most expected Pratt to leave, but he stayed! And most expected Bell to stay, and he left. I don't get how swapping one for the other (and keeping the younger, better olayer at that) makes this such a disaster.

4) Though I think Bell was worth the money Carolina paid, I think we have done a good job prioritizing the right positions. QB, WR, and OT on offense and DE, CB, and DT on D are the most valuable positions. We have 12 guys on the team making $6 mil or more a year. 10 of them play those positions: Burrow, Chase, Boyd, Williams, Collins, Hendrickson, Hubbard, Awuzie, Reader, & BJ Hill. 2 do not: Cappa (OG) & Mixon (RB). 

We paid our safeties $20 mil last year (or close to it). Bates & Bell will be $23 mil this year. We just did not want to invest that type of money at the position. Bates would have been the highest paid player on the team. And Bell is signing his 3rd contract. Something I think we are wary of after the end of the Marvin era. 

Great post ICTR85.

Actually keeping Pratt and losing Bell and Bates money could free up some dough for things to happen we cannot imagine. That was a
damn good deal for Pratt considering what Edmunds got paid who is just a bit better and actually not as good of a tackler.

7.5M/year for Vonn Bell comes in 750k higher than Pratt's deal.

13M in guarantees, however, nearly doubles the $7M Pratt got - which was all signing bonus. https://t.co/4VAZzVql7B

— Jake Liscow (@JakeLiscow) March 14, 2023

(03-14-2023, 11:48 AM)NotBigzo Wrote: Seriously.

How do we lose TWO starting safeties in day one, especially knowing that we're out of the market for one of them?

"We want to go younger" is just a euphemism for "we want to be cheap skates". Vonn Bell and Bates is what got us to the SB two years ago, LITERALLY. Look at that overtime interception.

If the Bengals decide to pay for one of the remaining good ones, it's STILL a downgrade. But I get a feeling that they're just fine with Tycen Anderson, which will be a disaster against the Bills and the Cheifs.

The Bengals can't afford to have its episodes of buttcheek offense anymore. The Defense won't be top 10 next season.

This feels a like more like a decline. The Bills and Cheifs addressed core issues day one. Bengals objectively are worse off.

The Bengals addressed one of those two positions during last year’s draft. In the first round.

you fools took the bait lol

Let me tell you the story about a young bull and an old bull . . .

(03-14-2023, 01:54 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote:

7.5M/year for Vonn Bell comes in 750k higher than Pratt's deal.

13M in guarantees, however, nearly doubles the $7M Pratt got - which was all signing bonus. https://t.co/4VAZzVql7B

— Jake Liscow (@JakeLiscow) March 14, 2023

If the organization really can't give out guarantees like this for Bell, they probably need to sell the team to someone who can provide more up-front cash.
Bell's contract should have easily been able to be matched by the Bengals, who are no doubt a better team right now than CAR is.

Jesus Christ man give it until after the draft at least

(03-14-2023, 02:37 PM)ochocincos Wrote: If the organization really can't give out guarantees like this for Bell, they probably need to sell the team to someone who can provide more up-front cash.
Bell's contract should have easily been able to be matched by the Bengals, who are no doubt a better team right now than CAR is.

We'll see what they do.

My guess is they revert to being conservative like they did when they saved up to pay Dalton and Green. Burrow is getting a massive deal, so they'll let some guys go to make sure they have the cash.

The Front Office is not keen on free agency amounts this year. They weren’t as surprised as Jungle Nouse was on Vonn Bell. We were lucky getting him the first time and he felt this contract was paramount monetarily. They are high on Tycen Anderson. They will draft a safety and maybe add a solid low priced veteran on a one year deal. Don’t shoot the messenger

(03-14-2023, 01:26 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Eh, none of this is even final yet with the guys we supposedly lost. But there is always a knee jerk reaction every FA around here.

No surprise. Dax Hill could be better than both Bell and Bates and it isn't like they played great last year. Bell had some head scratching
plays and Bates played soft half the year. We can still add a vet and we have Michael Thomas as a leader for Tycen to help him come 
along if that is the worst case scenario, which I agree, would be dire. But still, I will wait and see how everything shakes out even after
the draft before I call all this the worst. 

We all predicted this would be the most inactive we would of been in FA, but we needed to bring back our own if this was the case.

Now we are forced to go out and get a vet Safety which sucks, but Lou can work with what we get and we can still be a top 10 D.

I think we're going to feel Bates' absence in 2023. He didn't make a lot of splash plays and he wasn't a punishing tackler, but his instincts and range probably prevented more plays than any of us realize.

Bell, on the other hand, was good, but a significant portion of his contribution to the team was as an emotional leader. I thought we'd keep him for sure because we knew Bates was gone and we wouldn't want to replace both starters in a single season since Lou's scheme seems to be fairly complicated. I think we'll probably give up more big plays than we did in 2022 just from the unfamiliarity with Lou's scheme causing some confusion with 2 new safety starters.

All told, we had 28 turnovers (13 INT, 15 FF) last year and 11 of them (8 INT, 3 FF) just left the building.

Pratt staying, however, may make up for a fair amount of that. He was a playmaker in every sense of the word for our defense. He led the team in passes defensed with 10 and had 3 turnovers as well (2 INT, 1 FF and FR, same play). He was also a key figure in the Sam Hubbard TD return as he is the one who held at the point of attack.

I think our defense is currently worse than it was last year, but if we sign a good veteran safety like CJGJ or Thornhill, we're probably at ~90% defensive strength and that's before the draft, where I hope we add a good cornerback and pass rusher (as well as getting Awuzie back).

If we just roll with Tycen, I'll be concerned though. a 5th round 2nd year player who didn't play a snap as your de facto starting SS is...not good. That's something bad teams do. Championship teams don't let unproven, low drafted players get uncontested starting spots.

The key to getting back to the Super Bowl next year will be all about the offensive line, which is why it's frustrating that we haven't addressed RT yet.

(03-14-2023, 03:30 PM)Soonerpeace Wrote: The Front Office is not keen on free agency amounts this year.  They weren’t as surprised as Jungle Nouse was on Vonn Bell. We were lucky getting him the first time and he felt this contract was paramount monetarily. They are high on Tycen Anderson. They will draft a safety and maybe add a solid low priced veteran on a one year deal. Don’t shoot the messenger

(03-14-2023, 03:43 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I think we're going to feel Bates' absence in 2023. He didn't make a lot of splash plays and he wasn't a punishing tackler, but his instincts and range probably prevented more plays than any of us realize.

Bell, on the other hand, was good, but a significant portion of his contribution to the team was as an emotional leader. I thought we'd keep him for sure because we knew Bates was gone and we wouldn't want to replace both starters in a single season since Lou's scheme seems to be fairly complicated. I think we'll probably give up more big plays than we did in 2022 just from the unfamiliarity with Lou's scheme causing some confusion with 2 new safety starters.

All told, we had 28 turnovers (13 INT, 15 FF) last year and 11 of them (8 INT, 3 FF) just left the building.

Pratt staying, however, may make up for a fair amount of that. He was a playmaker in every sense of the word for our defense. He led the team in passes defensed with 10 and had 3 turnovers as well (2 INT, 1 FF and FR, same play). He was also a key figure in the Sam Hubbard TD return as he is the one who held at the point of attack.

I think our defense is currently worse than it was last year, but if we sign a good veteran safety like CJGJ or Thornhill, we're probably at ~90% defensive strength and that's before the draft, where I hope we add a good cornerback and pass rusher (as well as getting Awuzie back).

If we just roll with Tycen, I'll be concerned though. a 5th round 2nd year player who didn't play a snap as your de facto starting SS is...not good. That's something bad teams do. Championship teams don't let unproven, low drafted players get uncontested starting spots.

The key to getting back to the Super Bowl next year will be all about the offensive line, which is why it's frustrating that we haven't addressed RT yet.

I dont see any way in which we simply roll with Tycen.  He is not a good a coverage safety and he has never played a snap in the NFL.

Yes, like others, I was bummed to see Bell and Bates go. With the cap space they have, I sure hope there's something in the works. I didn't expect the Bengals to be super active in free agency as they have so many starters and players returning under contract for next year. But thought we might see a little more at this point (and now I hope we see safety addressed with a veteran to play next to Dax)

(03-14-2023, 03:48 PM)casear2727 Wrote: I dont see any way in which we simply roll with Tycen.  He is not a good a coverage safety and he has never played a snap in the NFL.

We won't (unless a bunch of things go sideways). I am pretty confident there is a vet coming. It may be one year for the right guy but I think we will have someone with 20+ starts on the roster back there come draft day. I also think as prices start falling it could end up a 2-3 year deal.

(03-14-2023, 01:46 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: 3) Most people with half a brain got this going into FA. Everyone knew Bates was gone. No surprise there. Most expected Pratt to leave, but he stayed! And most expected Bell to stay, and he left. I don't get how swapping one for the other (and keeping the younger, better olayer at that) makes this such a disaster.

Most people though Pratt was going to leave because he would demand 10 million plus and he wasnt worth that much.  Pratt instead signed a fair deal. 

Before free agency if you would have said Pratt and Bell would both be looking for close to 7.5 million a year, most people with half a brain would think both would be signed at those numbers.  They didnt swap out one for the other, Pratt just signed a fair deal.  If Pratt had demanded 10+ million, he would have been gone too.

(03-14-2023, 03:51 PM)Au165 Wrote: We won't (unless a bunch of things go sideways). I am pretty confident there is a vet coming. It may be one year for the right guy but I think we will have someone with 20+ starts on the roster back there come draft day. I also think as prices start falling it could end up a 2-3 year deal.

Taylor Rapp reminds me of Vonn Bell before he signed with Cincinnati.