(03-20-2023, 01:13 AM)Frank Booth Wrote: He was a very bad pass protector last year. And now he has more wear and tear. LC is a back up

Still rather have him as the back-up that has to start while a new draft pick gets ready then Adeniji or D'Ante Smith. 

You can say it was years ago that he was good (even though he was good in the 2021 season) but better to have been good and faded some skills then the other two names above that never were good.

Collins probably isn't the long-term answer but as a stop gap for half a season, you certainly could do worse.

(03-20-2023, 02:04 AM)Murdock2420 Wrote: Still rather have him as the back-up that has to start while a new draft pick gets ready then Adeniji or D'Ante Smith. 

You can say it was years ago that he was good (even though he was good in the 2021 season) but better to have been good and faded some skills then the other two names above that never were good.

Collins probably isn't the long-term answer but as a stop gap for half a season, you certainly could do worse.

I’m fine with him as a back up, but his salary is too much to be a back up

He was a good run blocker last year. His pass protection was awful. Referencing sacks alone is not a legitimate way of diagnosing how good a lineman is at pass pro

He was playing hurt last year due to the back problems, and now he’s coming off a knee injury

Throw whatever LC being a good RT dreams you have in the trash

(03-20-2023, 01:59 AM)Frank Booth Wrote: Guess you don’t have eyes. LC would get beat so quickly constantly. He pass protection grade was like 46

Thankfully Burrow and the offense relied on quick release passing game

It’s getting ridiculous when people reference sacks allowed like that is what defines a good pass blocker.

Just re-watch how bad LC was in the Chiefs game during the regular season. It’s like the offense was designed to mask his inefficiencies at RT

Saying those two things together is really ill-informed and ridiculous.

Maybe read where i used total pressures to determine what the average is and not just sacks. Total pressures is an aggregate of sacks, hits and hurries. 

All that aside, ignoring the trolling level of your post (what i highlighted), i am slightly off. PFF defaults to reg+post season in their numbers. When i change the parameter to just the reg season, the pass snap (i used total snaps before) number will be 561 snaps, the sack average would be 4 (rounded slightly down) and the total pressure number would be 30 (averaged slightly down). 

Those are "average" numbers for the 31st, 32nd and 33rd spots in passpro snaps, sacks and total pressures from 2018 to 2022. It's a baseline number for what you would want to look for in an average tackle.
561 snaps,  4 sacks, 30 pressures, which would come out to 18.7 snaps per pressure (sack, hit, hurry) given up.

Collins was;
618 5 34 for a 18.2 SPP

Jonah was;
724 12 43 for a 16.8 SPP

Kolton Miller had a 84.8 pass block grade from PFF. His pressure numbers were;
644 4 33 for a 19.5 SPP

In snaps per pressure, you want the highest number possible. For instance, Laremy Tunsil (graded 91.7 in passpro #1) numbers look like this;
676 1 17 for a 39.8 SPP

Tristan Wirfs gave up a ridiculous 5 total pressures on the entire year and he was graded #2 at 90.5 from PFF.
His pressure numbers look like this;
626 2 5 for a 125.2 SPP


PFF grades are an unmitigated ***** joke. The actual unbiased, raw numbers, averaged out, give a better indication of how well a guy is at passpro compared to his peers over a biased "grading" system, hands down.

(03-20-2023, 01:54 AM)BengalsBong Wrote: It is the way Collins blocks outside rushers diving to the ground and pushing the guy up field to give Dalton a sec to get rid of it. Collins is laying on his face and it all happens right in front of Joe, so Joe knows he has to get rid of the ball now or take a sack. That is far from proper blocking technique but Burrow bails him out of giving up a sack because he sees it all happen. Williams on the other hand is blocking Joes blind side and if he did what Collins does, he would get Joe killed. 

And I am glad Williams is not protecting Joes blind side we need a great guy at that spot and now we have one in Orlando. Joe will see the pressure coming from the RT weather it is Collins, Williams, Carman enter draft picks name here. For that very reason we are much better off this year on the O-line. 

Collins is a slightly below average RT that could easily be replaced and i hope they do because he's not even going to be ready until mid season or later. But he's not a bobby hart or hakeem adeniji level player either. 

I'd keep him on the roster to step in if whoever they put out there falters or if someone gets injured. 

(03-20-2023, 01:59 AM)Frank Booth Wrote: Guess you don’t have eyes.

Just re-watch how bad LC was in the Chiefs game during the regular season. It’s like the offense was designed to mask his inefficiencies at RT

I just went and watched it. If you think that was a bad game, then you're letting PFF tell you it was a bad game and you look just as wrong as they do.

You're probably remembering his last 2 snaps because they were 2 of his 3 really bad snaps of the entire game. Burrow took a sack on 2nd down and then the pressure on the pass to Higgins. 

He got beat around the edge a few times other than that but on at least 2 of those instances, the defender ran himself way past Burrow with no chance of disrupting him. 

I am glad you pointed that game out specifically though because it highlights how a play or two can determine how good or bad a player is, in a fan's eyes, based on a couple specific plays. 

(03-20-2023, 03:28 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: I just went and watched it. If you think that was a bad game, then you're letting PFF tell you it was a bad game and you look just as wrong as they do.

You're probably remembering his last 2 snaps because they were 2 of his 3 really bad snaps of the entire game. Burrow took a sack on 2nd down and then the pressure on the pass to Higgins. 

He got beat around the edge a few times other than that but on at least 2 of those instances, the defender ran himself way past Burrow with no chance of disrupting him. 

I am glad you pointed that game out specifically though because it highlights how a play or two can determine how good or bad a player is, in a fan's eyes, based on a couple specific plays.

I've seen it many times. Player A falls down or something and he sucks! 

And to be honest I've been guilty of it myself.

(03-20-2023, 09:03 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I've seen it many times. Player A falls down or something and he sucks! 

And to be honest I've been guilty of it myself.

I'd say most of us have been at some point or another.  In Collins' situation, I think that some just got excited about the possibility of him producing like he had earlier in his career, that the expectation level may have simply been unachievable.

(03-17-2023, 11:56 AM)Nepa Wrote: By Jonah publicly requesting a trade, the Bengals are disadvantaged in trade negotiations. So, how much the Bengals would get back goes down a notch. I figured he would play the season and then go the free-agent route and leave. Didn't expect him to publicly announce he wants to leave now.

Well, if I understand it correctly, if Jonah leaves next year as a RFA, the Bengals would be entitled to a compensatory pick, and based on the next contract (he would really have to show he was back from injury) and sorry, Jonah, the Bengals hold all the cards here.  You will play RT if they say play RT or you will lose $12.5 million.

You have to feel that comp pick would be at least a 4th rounder, as LT is one of the highest paid positions on the team in most cases.  So, that (to me), is where the price should start and I don't think it really matters if it is a pick for this year or next year's comp pick.  More on either side is always better.  

Bengals just need to trade Jonah and Mixon for picks and load up in this draft with players on rookie deals.

Since Zac has been here the Bengals have drafted really well and with big contracts looming the herd needs to be thinned anyway.

(03-17-2023, 12:41 PM)Clark W Griswold Wrote: He’s not a great LT so the Bengals aren’t screwing him - that’s just how it works. They found someone they like better but it’s not like they are moving him to G or benching him.  He’s probably mad about the timing of it (his contract year) and that he played hurt for them last season.
He is limited athletically compared to other LTs and is more of a “fundamentals” player.
He’s been OK - not good not bad but that’s an important position so I don’t blame the Bengals for trying to raise the level of LT play up to match the rest of the offense.

I thought they would not need to sign/draft a tackle to play this upcoming season but it looks like that has changed now…

Teh Bengals paid Jonah (still one year to go) a fully guaranteed, 30 million dollar contract.  This, despite not having any great tangible traits.  He was described as "super solid"...."student of the game"....."All-around really good talent".   If that is screwing the guy, sign me up for a screwing by the Bengals. 

What did they get from Jonah in return?  Pretty much, what he was advertised.   Not going to be Pro Bowl talent, but a solid starter.  PFF ratings of 74 and 71 before his injury-riddled 62 in 2022, for which I will give him a pass due to playing through two dislocated knee caps.  One where he returned in the same game!  I have had that injury and I have no idea how he did that.  So, I like the guy overall.  I think he probably learned his lesson and will trim the bad weight he added.

I am also optimistic that coming off a lot of rehab, his overall body will be better and stronger for the upcoming season.  He had his best season coming off a completely lost rookie campaign.  That year of rest, rehab, and conditioning might have been just what his body needed coming off the dreaded "Alabama Rookie Fatigue".  

In reality, no one is going to offer significant compensation (like above a 7th round pick) for a guy that hasn't proven he is back from injury.  The Bengals hold all the cards here, just ask Palmer or Bates.  Jonah will compete for RT with Carman and the loser of that battle will be the first tackle off the bench, at least until Collins returns, who I believe will be retained now for depth.  Lack of depth is what killed them last year.  

(03-17-2023, 12:44 PM)Webbtown Wrote: What team is that desperate for a LT that they would pay Jonah Williams 12 million dollars?

To be fair, if you look at LT contracts, $12 million is peanuts for a quality starter.  Jonah had PFF rankings of 74 and 71 before the injury plagued 2022 seasons where he scored a 61.  For comparison, Orlando Brown scored a 75 each of the past two seasons.  

(03-20-2023, 10:17 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: To be fair, if you look at LT contracts, $12 million is peanuts for a quality starter.  Jonah had PFF rankings of 74 and 71 before the injury plagued 2022 seasons where he scored a 61.  For comparison, Orlando Brown scored a 75 each of the past two seasons.  

Yep. It's all how teams look at him. He's also injured A LOT. So he's had 3 years of either injuries/mediocre play and then 1 solid year. What will year 5 be for him?

I read on Twitter that maybe no team will want him due to his cost and how limited cap space is for most teams.

I'd say Arizona and Indy are 2 possible destinations.

(03-17-2023, 12:57 PM)BengalsBong Wrote: If we cannot get rid of him by the time the season starts, and another team loses a LT and thinks they can make the playoffs with Williams then his price goes way up.

Play him during preseason to prove he is heathy.

Good to see (hear from) you, Bong.  I completely agree and this will most likely be their course of action.  He will probably play both sides in preseason.  And he will likely play a lot.  

(03-20-2023, 10:13 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Teh Bengals paid Jonah (still one year to go) a fully guaranteed, 30 million dollar contract.  This, despite not having any great tangible traits.  He was described as "super solid"...."student of the game"....."All-around really good talent".   If that is screwing the guy, sign me up for a screwing by the Bengals. 

What did they get from Jonah in return?  Pretty much, what he was advertised.   Not going to be Pro Bowl talent, but a solid starter.  PFF ratings of 74 and 71 before his injury-riddled 62 in 2022, for which I will give him a pass due to playing through two dislocated knee caps.  One where he returned in the same game!  I have had that injury and I have no idea how he did that.  So, I like the guy overall.  I think he probably learned his lesson and will trim the bad weight he added.

I am also optimistic that coming off a lot of rehab, his overall body will be better and stronger for the upcoming season.  He had his best season coming off a completely lost rookie campaign.  That year of rest, rehab, and conditioning might have been just what his body needed coming off the dreaded "Alabama Rookie Fatigue".  

In reality, no one is going to offer significant compensation (like above a 7th round pick) for a guy that hasn't proven he is back from injury.  The Bengals hold all the cards here, just ask Palmer or Bates.  Jonah will compete for RT with Carman and the loser of that battle will be the first tackle off the bench, at least until Collins returns, who I believe will be retained now for depth.  Lack of depth is what killed them last year.  

I feel like Jonah does good in most matchups, but gets ate alive by the great pass rushers and he faced a bunch last year.

Like he'll look good for a chunk of the game against them, then like Micah Parsons will walk him back and throw him into Joe Burrow's leg or something like that. ie He tends to get overpowered.

(03-20-2023, 09:03 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I've seen it many times. Player A falls down or something and he sucks! 

And to be honest I've been guilty of it myself.

There's no denying he was the "worst" of the bunch, but he wasn't terrible by any means. Everyone else was credited with zero pressures. Nada. I went back and watched it a second time and wondered why Jonah didn't get dinged with a pressure of some sort on 3 occasions. Once when Chris Jones threw him aside and almost sacked Burrow. 

But...whatev

People out here acting like Lael Collins is going to be our starting RT week 1 are driving me nuts.

The guy tore his ACL and MCL on Christmas. There is ZERO chance he will be ready by week 1 if at all for the entirity of the season. There's also a good chance he won't be the same guy ever.

If Jonah leaves, we legit do not have a decent option at RT.

(03-20-2023, 12:08 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: People out here acting like Lael Collins is going to be our starting RT week 1 are driving me nuts.

The guy tore his ACL and MCL on Christmas. There is ZERO chance he will be ready by week 1 if at all for the entirity of the season. There's also a good chance he won't be the same guy ever.

If Jonah leaves, we legit do not have a decent option at RT.

People are relying on Carmen to be the RT which is nuts to me. He could be good there I guess, but I wouldn't feel good about him starting there. It's why I wouldn't be surprised if we draft a RT at 28 if a decent one is still available. 

If Jonah isn't traded, I hope he doesn't hold out and I hope he acts professional. We might need him at RT and we'll need the best out of him.

(03-20-2023, 12:08 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: People out here acting like Lael Collins is going to be our starting RT week 1 are driving me nuts.

The guy tore his ACL and MCL on Christmas. There is ZERO chance he will be ready by week 1 if at all for the entirity of the season. There's also a good chance he won't be the same guy ever.

If Jonah leaves, we legit do not have a decent option at RT.

I agree Collins won't be ready for week 1 and even when hw does return we shouldn't expect anything more than average at best. That said, we also have no idea if Williams is even a decent option. 

He struggled a lot last year, is coming off his own knee surgery, and hasn't played RT since his Freshman year of college. 

(03-20-2023, 12:08 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: People out here acting like Lael Collins is going to be our starting RT week 1 are driving me nuts.

The guy tore his ACL and MCL on Christmas. There is ZERO chance he will be ready by week 1 if at all for the entirity of the season. There's also a good chance he won't be the same guy ever.

If Jonah leaves, we legit do not have a decent option at RT.

Yep. I think he can recover, but he also had back issues...so I don't know. But, it would be late in the year when he returned I'd guess. And who knows how he'll play?

There were reasons the Cowboys got rid of him. And why we got him on such a value contract.

I kind of wonder if Brown is in the same boat. I've read that the league viewed him as a RT and he's going to be a LT here. And we got him for a reasonable price in a league that needs lineman.

I don't know.