(04-28-2023, 01:24 AM)Burma Wrote: anyone able to find the defensive stats for 2022 that showed % of snaps with 5 defensive linemen? Been looking but no luck so far
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I sense the sarcasm. But there is a stat for how many sacks we had last year. Do you want me to tell you?

(04-28-2023, 01:26 AM)Bengalbug Wrote: I sense the sarcasm. But there is a stat for how many sacks we had last year. Do you want me to tell you?

No sarcasm. I have been a DL in 1 or 2 guy from the start. I know they did it with some regularity but not sure on frequency. I found percent of snaps in a 3 safety set, but nothing with 5 DL.

(04-28-2023, 12:39 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: ...I also remember how awful our TEs were last year without Hurst on the field and the only change they made was replacing Hurst with a guy who missed more games in his first 4 seasons than Tyler Eifert. TE now is going to be an absolute drain on the offense's ability in 2023 anytime they're on the field.

Hurst missed 4 games last year including the K.C. game where he was injured in the 1st quarter.   The Bengals won every game including beating KC without a #1 TE Hurst or #2 TE Sample.  They dont need a TE like they need help on defense with the pass rush.  We didnt lose to KC in the AFC Championship because of our TEs.  We lost because we couldnt get to Mahomes and he had all day to throw while he lit up the defense for 326 yards with 2 TDs.  A TE just doesnt help the Bengals as much as a pass rusher.

From Dane Brugler's Beast:

Quote:STRENGTHS: Outstanding size, length and build … fires upfield as a pass rusher with get-off burst and arc speed … plays balanced on his feet to knife through gaps or drive on the quarterback when stunts create rush lanes … gets the tackle twisted when he widens and times his long-arm move correctly … big, powerful hands to snatch blockers or create knockback … weight-room numbers (405-pound max bench press, 345-pound max power clean) translate to the field … aggressive run defender with the strength to hold the point of attack and spill outside runs … not intimidated by double teams … has the chase effort to close and make tackles away from the line of scrimmage … physical tackler with the strength in his hands to dislodge the football (six forced fumbles) or ground ball carriers with his fingertips … owns a grounded personality and doesn’t want to disappoint his coaches … played in 38 straight games before opting out of the bowl game … dependable backfield production with 37.0 tackles for loss in 38 career games.

WEAKNESSES: Undeveloped rush setup … doesn’t show an array of moves or counters, relying more on burst and power … shows off an aggressive bull rush and longarm move but struggles to work off of that … finds himself too far upfield and not a natural hip flipper at the top of his rush … inconsistent eyes and tends to overthink once engaged, leaving him late to react … gets upright in the run game and can be moved by angle blocks … reserved by nature and must develop more of a killer instinct … mediocre pressure and sack numbers relative to his talent (finished third on the team with 34 pressures in 2022) … sidelined for the combine with a left hamstring injury (March 2023).

SUMMARY: A three-year starter at Clemson, Murphy lined up at right defensive end in defensive coordinator Wes Goodwin’s multiple fronts but lined up everywhere from 4i or three-technique all the way out to wide nine-technique. A former top 10 high school recruit nationally, he made an immediate impact with the Tigers and posted double-digit tackles for loss each of his three seasons in college. Straight out of central casting with his frame, length and low body fat (13.5 percent in 2022), Murphy fires upfield and quickly gets on blocks, but there is more hesitation than you want to see once he’s engaged. Although he currently lacks diversity in his passrush moves/counters, his natural combination of burst, strength and violent hands will overwhelm blockers and allow him to affect the backfield rhythm in different ways. Overall, Murphy lacks efficient move-to-move transitions as a pass rusher, but he is naturally gifted with the explosive traits, play speed and length to be a disruptive leverage-power rusher in the NFL. He projects as a base end in a four-man front with the floor of an NFL starter.

He was the #5 edge defender, #21 overall.

If you played Paul Dehner Jr and Jay Morrison's mock draft games, you would not have been allowed to pick Myles Murphy because he was rated too highly on the board.

Brugler had him going #12 to Houston in his most recent mock draft.

On top of all that, he just sounds like a Lou defensive end. 6'5" 270lb, high effort, vicious against the run with extreme power in his pass rush. If there's one thing I trust, it's Lou and Marion Hobby to teach him pass rush moves, which was his biggest weakness by far.

For all the talk about his lack of production, he has more TFL (37), more sacks (17.5), more forced fumbles (6) and more PDs (6) in fewer games (38 GP/27 GS) than Tyree Wilson (32, 17, 1, 1, 43/28 respectively) and Nolan Smith (21, 11.5, 3, 4, 46/23) and he had more stats than Lukas Van Ness on a per game basis for everything but sacks (19.5, 13.5, 0, 1, 27/0 respectively. LVN's sacks would have been 19 had he theoretically played 38 games). That's 3 of the 6 other DEs drafted in the first round that he outproduced in college. He was more productive than BJ Ojulari and Keion White, and Derick Hall as well.

The only players that outproduced him that were considered first round talents were Will Anderson Jr, Will McDonald and Felix Anudike-Uzomah, who they could have taken but chose Murphy over (and essentially every mock draft and prospect list agrees with them on that as well).

I know this wasn't the pick we were all expecting. My personal top 10 for who I thought would be there were:
1. Darnell Wright
2. Calijah Kancey
3. Deonte Banks
4. Emmanuel Forbes
5. Michael Mayer
6. Dalton Kincaid
7. Anton Harrison
8. Bijan Robinson
9. Jahmyr Gibbs
10. Zay Flowers

This was slightly before Wright's stock took off like a rocket.

I did not list Nolan Smith or Myles Murphy in this list because there was no mock draft or prospect list that made me think we had a shot at getting either of them.

So my list was decimated anyway. Only 1 player remains for me on that list and, honestly, I only put him there out of peer pressure haha. I don't think tight end is a value pick in the first round, whereas DE definitely is.

I know a lot of people wanted the home town kid and TE is technically a need for this team, but there are a lot of tight ends in day 2 that will upgrade our roster, but there likely wasn't going to be an impact DE at 60. The best case was Isaiah Foskey and he isn't nearly as athletic or bendy as Murphy is.

Once the shock wears off, I think people will be very happy with this pick.

And, for those curious, Brett Kollman had Myles Murphy ranked as a Tier 1 edge rusher in this class, along with Anderson, Wilson and Smith.
https://youtu.be/7GY9mlEUQYI?t=725

He expected him to be gone within the top 15 picks. He said:

Quote:[disclaimer about how his 2021 season was better than his 2022 season]

He's a 6’5” 270 pound Edge rusher that plays the run like a freaking Maniac. He's really hard to dig out on the line of scrimmage and his first step and bend are really underrated to me. He's a better football player than tester you know I think his testing numbers were really underwhelming but again if you go back and you watch him on tape I think his first step is better than a 31 inch vertical suggests I think his bend is better than a 7.21 3 cone suggests so you're kind of trusting the tape over the numbers on this one and I know that scares a lot of people and it's probably why he's going to be the fourth out of these tier one Edge rushers selected but again if we're just looking at the tape he was an overwhelming Edge rusher for most of that 2021 season. The speed to power was damn near unblockable. He had really great hand fighting skills in terms of like how he would neutralize a tackles punch and kind of you know clear his chest to shorten the corner he was very good technically as a pass rusher he was great on stunts and especially kind of using that power to set up Loopers behind him. Like I mentioned dominant against the run pretty much the only thing he can't and won't do is drop into coverage because he's 6’5” 270, but other than that I mean he was a dominant player that year. I fully do acknowledge that this is a much riskier pick than everyone else in tier one and honestly it's riskier than a lot of the guys in tier 2 as well but if we're swinging for the fences and we're trying to get a big defensive end whose tape looks like Maxx Crosby at least in 2021 it did Miles Murphy's the guy that we're going for whether you personally would take Murphy you know super high in the draft it just depends on how risky or safe you want to be but again I cannot stress this enough there are teams out there right now that are ready to risk it all for Miles Murphy they see him as potentially a superstar and I totally understand why now I think it's pretty obvious that all the names in tier one are probably going to go in the top 15-ish picks if not higher than that they could all even be top 10 picks I wouldn't be surprised.

DE was a need, as our pass rush was not very good. And some had him top-5 prior to the combine. Should be immediate help.

(04-28-2023, 01:56 AM)Nepa Wrote: DE was a need, as our pass rush was not very good. And some had him top-5 prior to the combine. Should be immediate help.

This is a good pick.

I just think Bengals nation doesn't see him playing much with Trey Hendrickson and Sam Hubbard which I can understand. Edge was not high on everyone's board they expected the Bengals to save money at Corner not Defensive End.

(04-28-2023, 01:45 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: From Dane Brugler's Beast:

He was the #5 edge defender, #21 overall.

If you played Paul Dehner Jr and Jay Morrison's mock draft games, you would not have been allowed to pick Myles Murphy because he was rated too highly on the board.

Brugler had him going #12 to Houston in his most recent mock draft.

On top of all that, he just sounds like a Lou defensive end. 6'5" 270lb, high effort, vicious against the run with extreme power in his pass rush. If there's one thing I trust, it's Lou and Marion Hobby to teach him pass rush moves, which was his biggest weakness by far.

For all the talk about his lack of production, he has more TFL (37), more sacks (17.5), more forced fumbles (6) and more PDs (6) in fewer games (38 GP/27 GS) than Tyree Wilson (32, 17, 1, 1, 43/28 respectively) and Nolan Smith (21, 11.5, 3, 4, 46/23) and he had more stats than Lukas Van Ness on a per game basis for everything but sacks (19.5, 13.5, 0, 1, 27/0 respectively. LVN's sacks would have been 19 had he theoretically played 38 games). That's 3 of the 6 other DEs drafted in the first round that he outproduced in college. He was more productive than BJ Ojulari and Keion White, and Derick Hall as well.

The only players that outproduced him that were considered first round talents were Will Anderson Jr, Will McDonald and Felix Anudike-Uzomah, who they could have taken but chose Murphy over (and essentially every mock draft and prospect list agrees with them on that as well).

I know this wasn't the pick we were all expecting. My personal top 10 for who I thought would be there were:
1. Darnell Wright
2. Calijah Kancey
3. Deonte Banks
4. Emmanuel Forbes
5. Michael Mayer
6. Dalton Kincaid
7. Anton Harrison
8. Bijan Robinson
9. Jahmyr Gibbs
10. Zay Flowers

This was slightly before Wright's stock took off like a rocket.

I did not list Nolan Smith or Myles Murphy in this list because there was no mock draft or prospect list that made me think we had a shot at getting either of them.

So my list was decimated anyway. Only 1 player remains for me on that list and, honestly, I only put him there out of peer pressure haha. I don't think tight end is a value pick in the first round, whereas DE definitely is.

I know a lot of people wanted the home town kid and TE is technically a need for this team, but there are a lot of tight ends in day 2 that will upgrade our roster, but there likely wasn't going to be an impact DE at 60. The best case was Isaiah Foskey and he isn't nearly as athletic or bendy as Murphy is.

Once the shock wears off, I think people will be very happy with this pick.

And, for those curious, Brett Kollman had Myles Murphy ranked as a Tier 1 edge rusher in this class, along with Anderson, Wilson and Smith.
https://youtu.be/7GY9mlEUQYI?t=725

He expected him to be gone within the top 15 picks. He said:

If you eliminate the OLB types (Anderson, Smith, McDonald) and talk about true 4-3 DEs instead of "edge" guys, Murphy was #3 among DEs at worst and some had him above Van Ness for #2 (Kiper, for one). 

He is not the complete package yet. He needs some refinement & development. But the physical traits are elite. He is big, fast, and strong. His character is excellent as a team captain. He is only 21. And he is very coachable. And has some positional versatility. He fills a need (pass rush). He plays a high value pisition. And we paid our starting DEs $25 mil last year to finish bottom 5 in sacks. Future cap savings is a factot too, as Hendrickson & Hubbard are both on 2nd contracts. A third might be pushing it. 

It is not a home run, but it is a double with HR potential with his upside. We have a great DL coach and great vets in the DL riom in Hendrickson, Hubbard, Reader, and Hill. It is a good situation. 

Brighten up everyone, I did a mock on PFN and got:

Rd 2: Brents, CB, Kansas State 
Rd 3: Washington, TE, Georgia 
Rd 4: Miller, RB, TCU 
Rd 5: Zavala, OG, NC State 
Rd 6: Strange, TE, Penn State 
Rd 7: Brooks, DT, Bowling Green 

Their board has Brooks & Strange WAAAAY too low. That is just stealing. Zavala, too. Realistically, probably some WR help later instead. 

(04-28-2023, 02:26 AM)Synric Wrote: I just think Bengals nation doesn't see him playing much with Trey Hendrickson and Sam Hubbard which I can understand. Edge was not high on everyone's board they expected the Bengals to save money at Corner not Defensive End.

Backup lineman get a ton of snaps. Sample played 412 and Ossai 334  (I think) last year. Hubbard & Hendrickson playing a ton of snaps when healthy wears them down. DL rotates. 4 DEs will play. Maybe all 5 since sime play inside some on passing downs. 

(04-28-2023, 02:33 AM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: Backup lineman get a ton of snaps. Sample played 412 and Ossai 334  (I think) last year. Hubbard & Hendrickson playing a ton of snaps when healthy wears them down. DL rotates. 4 DEs will play. Maybe all 5 since sime play inside some on passing downs. 

I agree he will see 400 snaps at least in 2023. This could also mean more interior snaps for Cam Sample who Ive been wanting to see inside for a few years now.

How about a 2024 off-season thread started now... "Who gets traded Hubbard or Hendrickson?!!?" lol.

(04-28-2023, 12:45 AM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: There will be someone they covet in the next 2 round, don't worry

I'm thinking La Porta, the might even attempt to move up for him.

I absolutely hate passing on Mayer but, after watching both lines suck ass in the championship game I wanted us to focus on BOTH lines this draft. Actually would have preferred an Olinemen or maybe the top guard over Murphy since the OT’s were gone but I get it. Kinda glad Mayar was on the board instead of being picked right before us so now I know we wouldn’t have picked him anyway instead of wondering.

(04-28-2023, 01:05 AM)MasonDT70 Wrote: I would've preferred a trade back and grab someone like debawore as a high upside pick and an inside rusher is more of a need imo than edge. Just not a fan of how the board fell. 

Why do you guys think it is so easy to make other teams trade up to our spot and give us good value? Especially in what looks like a shitty draft class?

Bengals got a complete steal in end of round one. A true DE that was All American in High School and one of the most recruited high school players, and comes out of college listed as in the Top 20 players in NFL Draft Class. Bengals got Best Available Athlete in late one.

Now if top players could keep falling. I'm hoping Back to Back Championship Georgia star DB- Ringo falls to Bengals. I like his size for a DB and could replace Bates in youth and good size. I like him being a star in the Georgia Championship wins. Kentucky and Ohio State fans may not like him because he kicked their rear ends.

Bengals didn't reach down, a top notch player fell to them in Round One. I'm hoping this pattern continues and players keep falling to Bengals who are ranked higher than the late spots Bengals pick. In Round 2, I'm looking 10 spots above where they pick, and hoping Ringo or another solid round 2 pick falls to Bengals at end of round 2, and more luck in round 3.

I was totally rooting for this pick! I was actually thinking that Murphy would be gone and hoping for Van Ness to drop to us. Pass rush was the championship factor that we lacked. This is very similar to the Dax Hill pick last year. BPA that dropped to us. Groom for 1 year as injury insurance and eventual heir to the position due to pending free agency. Ease our guys into the system. GREAT FREAKIN' START TO THIS DRAFT!!!

We were 4th worst in league in sacks, we needed that help. We don't generate pressure.

All you guys wanting Nolan Smith at 28, he doesn't fit our system of rushing just four big linemen. He is more of a blitzing OLB for a 3-4. Need bigger DEs.

All you guys wanting inside pass rush at 28, Carter and Kancey were the best pass rushers from the inside and they were gone, the rest of the interior DTs left were run stuffers and space eaters.

All you guys wanting Mayer at 28, he was just average in blocking for his size.

All you guys wanting Porter Jr, are not true Bengal fans.

(04-28-2023, 12:54 AM)MasonDT70 Wrote: Yeah he's an upside pick. Hope he can put up 25 sacks this year, but would rather a more immediate help. I get the value especially as pass rushers contracts are expensive. Draft just didn't fall favorably for Bengals imo

So you would not have drafted the best player available correct?

Oh so many people crack me up. Tobin made it very clear that they would go best player available and that is exactly what they did. Cue the Joey Porter Jr. comments but you do not know internally where they had each of those two player ranked on their big board. Porter likely was below Murphy on the Bengals board because he does not completely fit the scheme of Anarumo.

People complaining about this selection are not looking at the situation with real perspective. They really needed pass rush help at the end of the season as the starting DEs were playing far too many snaps. They have a single true high quality pass rusher on the edge in depth and that is Ossai. They just got the 17th ranked prospect with the 28th selection and people are complaining.

You do not pass on value selections to draft for the perceived needs of a fanbase.