Was going to start a thread about Dexter Lawrence and the Giants agreeing upon a 4 year $90 million dollar extension in the Around the NFL thread. But this does affect the Bengals I feel in that it essentially ensures Reader will not be a Bengal after the upcoming season- assuming the plan is to keep the three amigos together.

(05-04-2023, 07:16 PM)ElkValleyBengal Wrote: Was going to start a thread about Dexter Lawrence and the Giants agreeing upon a 4 year $90 million dollar extension in the Around the NFL thread.  But this does affect the Bengals I feel in that it essentially ensures Reader will not be a Bengal after the upcoming season- assuming the plan is to keep the three amigos together.

We don't know how things will play out.  DJ has missed significant time due to injury on this contract, if he wants to remain a Bengal after this season, I'm sure that all parties involved will take that fact into consideration during negotiations. I would think at worst the team will sign DJ to a one year contract. 

Lawrence is 25, made the Pro-Bowl, had 7.5 sacks last year, and played 864 snaps last year.

Reader is nearly 29, did not make the Pro-Bowl, had 0 sacks last year, and played 397 snaps last year.

See the differences?

(05-04-2023, 07:32 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: Lawrence is 25, made the Pro-Bowl, had 7.5 sacks last year, and played 864 snaps last year.

Reader is nearly 29, did not make the Pro-Bowl, had 0 sacks last year, and played 397 snaps last year.

See the differences?

It’s definitely apples to oranges

(05-04-2023, 07:32 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: Lawrence is 25, made the Pro-Bowl, had 7.5 sacks last year, and played 864 snaps last year.

Reader is nearly 29, did not make the Pro-Bowl, had 0 sacks last year, and played 397 snaps last year.

See the differences?

somebody deleted my comment, so I'll say it again

referencing pro bowls is STUPID. DJ Reader is an elite nose tackle. And that's not even up for debate

(05-04-2023, 07:44 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: somebody deleted my comment, so I'll say it again

referencing pro bowls is STUPID. DJ Reader is an elite nose tackle. And that's not even up for debate

Pro bowl isn't everything in that statement though. Don't ignore everything for just one part of it that you don't like. Reader is getting "older" for the position he plays and he's had injury issues. Lawrence is a more well rounded player. There's an argument that Reader is close to the best if not the best run stoppers in the league. He's not as great at pass rushing as Lawrence, who can also stop the run. Reader is one of my favorite players and one of our biggest factors on defense IMO, but there's things going against him getting what Lawrence did.

(05-04-2023, 07:44 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: somebody deleted my comment, so I'll say it again

referencing pro bowls is STUPID. DJ Reader is an elite nose tackle. And that's not even up for debate

When it comes to validating if a player is good or not? Yes it is.
When it comes to discussing contracts? No it isn't.

Case and point, Burrow's 5th year option is $29.5m, here's the four different 5th year option numbers for QBs...
QBs with 2+ Pro Bowls: $32.4m
QBs with 1 Pro Bowl: $29.5m
QBs with 0 Pro Bowls but meet playtime criteria: $23.2m
QBs with 0 Pro Bowls and no playtime criteria: $20.3m

That's why Tua's option is $23.2m, $6.3m less than Burrow and Herbert. If they were eligible, Chase would have got $19.7m and Waddle would have got $14.1m. It's very much a thing to reference when talking about contracts, because while the Pro Bowl process is flawed, it is still an award/honor bestowed upon the player that gives them a tangible quantifiable arrow in their agent's quiver when it comes to negotiations including being in the CBA and players contracts.

DJ already counts over $15 mil against the cap this year. He’s also getting up there in age and has an injury history. Why do you assume he is gone after this year?

If anything, if he leaves it’s probably because the Bengals seem to have changed their minds about big 3rd contracts after some of the last ones they did ended up not working out well.

I don’t see re-signing him costing much more than he already costs.

(05-04-2023, 08:51 PM)leonardfan40 Wrote: DJ already counts over $15 mil against the cap this year. He’s also getting up there in age and has an injury history. Why do you assume he is gone after this year?

If anything, if he leaves it’s probably because the Bengals seem to have changed their minds about big 3rd contracts after some of the last ones they did ended up not working out well.

I don’t see re-signing him costing much more than he already costs.

^This, if DJ feels like he's at home with the Bengals, he will want to finish this ride and get a ring.

(05-04-2023, 08:20 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: When it comes to validating if a player is good or not? Yes it is.
When it comes to discussing contracts? No it isn't.

Case and point, Burrow's 5th year option is $29.5m, here's the four different 5th year option numbers for QBs...
QBs with 2+ Pro Bowls: $32.4m
QBs with 1 Pro Bowl: $29.5m
QBs with 0 Pro Bowls but meet playtime criteria: $23.2m
QBs with 0 Pro Bowls and no playtime criteria: $20.3m

That's why Tua's option is $23.2m, $6.3m less than Burrow and Herbert. If they were eligible, Chase would have got $19.7m and Waddle would have got $14.1m. It's very much a thing to reference when talking about contracts, because while the Pro Bowl process is flawed, it is still an award/honor bestowed upon the player that gives them a tangible quantifiable arrow in their agent's quiver when it comes to negotiations including being in the CBA and players contracts.

So what you’re saying is referencing pro bowls is not stupid and in fact carries significant monetary value in contracts? Thanks for the post. Not a terribly difficult concept to grasp.


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(05-04-2023, 07:32 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: Lawrence is 25, made the Pro-Bowl, had 7.5 sacks last year, and played 864 snaps last year.

Reader is nearly 29, did not make the Pro-Bowl, had 0 sacks last year, and played 397 snaps last year.

See the differences?

I do.  And I'm not under the assumption Reader is going to garner close to $20 million.  But is he going to settle for half that, assuming he stays healthy this season?  I'd say not.  

(05-04-2023, 09:03 PM)BenZoo2 Wrote: So what you’re saying is referencing pro bowls is not stupid and in fact carries significant monetary value in contracts?  Thanks for the post.  Not a terribly difficult concept to grasp.


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From the example that Leonard Leap posted, it would at least appear as in regard to 1st round draft picks that being chosen to honorary teams is part of the CBA, as negotiated.

(05-04-2023, 08:51 PM)leonardfan40 Wrote: DJ already counts over $15 mil against the cap this year. He’s also getting up there in age and has an injury history. Why do you assume he is gone after this year?

If anything, if he leaves it’s probably because the Bengals seem to have changed their minds about big 3rd contracts after some of the last ones they did ended up not working out well.

I don’t see re-signing him costing much more than he already costs.

How are they even going to keep him at his current rate if they keep the three amigos though?

(05-04-2023, 09:06 PM)ElkValleyBengal Wrote: How are they even going to keep him at his current rate if they keep the three amigos though?

The salary cap has been increasing more rapidly, after the setback from the covid season.

DJ Reader could be extended this off-season for a couple years and lower the cap hit in 2023 but I don't know if they would extend Reader and Wilson both...

(05-04-2023, 09:06 PM)ElkValleyBengal Wrote: How are they even going to keep him at his current rate if they keep the three amigos though?

the 3 amigos applies to the 3 wide receivers. Burrow, Higgins, and chase will have to be called something else

(05-04-2023, 09:16 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: the 3 amigos applies to the 3 wide receivers. Burrow, Higgins, and chase will have to be called something else

Dos amigos con Patron!

Reader has been a difference maker and a big part of the defense. I loved watching his highlights this past season and all the big plays he was involved with. I think resigning him should be high on the priority list for the Bengals and I'm not sure it will be.

(05-04-2023, 07:32 PM)Isaac Curtis: The Real #85 Wrote: Lawrence is 25, made the Pro-Bowl, had 7.5 sacks last year, and played 864 snaps last year.

Reader is nearly 29, did not make the Pro-Bowl, had 0 sacks last year, and played 397 snaps last year.

See the differences?

Has there been rumors of DJ’s extension? He and Jonah pull in almost $30 million against the cap, that comes off 2024 just as Tee’s and Wilson’s deals kicks in.

(05-04-2023, 07:44 PM)Frank Booth Wrote: somebody deleted my comment, so I'll say it again

referencing pro bowls is STUPID. DJ Reader is an elite nose tackle. And that's not even up for debate

For less than 400 snaps. Lawrence played twice that. 

Despite your narrow-mindedness (75% of the guys who make the PB deserve it, are we gonna argue Mahommes, Hill, Allen, Burrow, Parsons, etc?), PB selections impact contracts (as others have pointed out). As do snap counts. I bet there isn't a single PB/all league guy who played less than 400 snaps, aside from special teams guys. And a DL with no sacks, who played less than 400 snaps? No chance. 

Reader is great while he is out there. Elite run stopper, and gets decent push. But there are easily 8 DTs who impact both as run stoppers and pass rushers AND play twice as many snaps. He is arguably pro-bowl level when he is out there (despite being pretty one dimensional), but he did not deserve a PB spot last year. His absence does not prove the process is meaningless, quite the opposite. 

It is not perfect, but Frank, you just get butt-hurt when your guys don't make it. Whitworth, etc. Sometimes guys get overlooked, or more worthy guys are there than spots. But that was not the case with Reader. I'd trade him for Lawrence in a heartbeat.