(06-09-2023, 08:30 AM)Sled21 Wrote: So thank you for proving my point. It's not that Williams isn't there that is really bothering people, it is that he asked (not demanded) for a trade. 

It could be a combination of the 2. I understand folks choosing not to attend voluntary workouts for one reason or another, but I'd rather see dudes do as LC is doing. There to support his teammates. I think Awuzie should be there teaching the DJs all he can. 

(06-09-2023, 06:06 AM)casear2727 Wrote: Carman simply has not shown to be better than Jonah.  Even in what many consider his best game in the snow he graded out at 60.  He has not won a spot in 2 years, could not beat out a rookie from a MVC team.  If the competition is remotely close and Jonah is healthy and on the roster, I would think they go with a guy that has shown he can start in the league and try to win the SB.

True that Carman hasn't shown that he is better than Jonah yet and couldn't beat out Volson at Guard. I just think with what Carman 
finally shown at LT in the Playoffs, coming back in great shape ready to go and playing RT in OTA's and all TC and Preseason he very 
well could be looking better than Jonah by the time the regular season starts. 

It sure would be better for our future if this is the case than Jonah playing great one year at RT, leaving next year and RT still being a 
question because Carman still isn't good on the right side. I have backed up Carman since we drafted him, no time for me to jump ship 
to an oft injured Jonah off a poor season playing hurt, without an anchor moving to RT in a contract year.

(06-09-2023, 09:36 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I disagree, bud.  In his first two NFL starts at LT, in the divisional round and the AFC title game (including 28 snaps against the Ratbirds), Jonah had a pass blocking average of 67.2, according to PFF.  Jonah's season average grade was 62.7.  I know people hate when PFF is used to make an argument, but the eyeball test against Buffalo and KC, where he practiced all week at LT and started both games showed me a lot about Carman that I had previously not believed. 

Jonah gets a pass due to his fighting through injuries, but he wasn't really playing that well before the injury.  He looked like he added bad weight and lost some of his agility.  

I don't mean to sound like Carman is better than Jonah (although I do believe he has a significantly better anchor), but what I saw in his first two starts at LT, combined with his contract represents a tremendous savings over Jonah.  Collins could start on PUP and either back him up or take the job if Carman is struggling.  I have a feeling that if Jackson gets the snaps at RT and is the starter, he will be pretty solid and won't look back.  

I mentioned earlier that I would keep Collins as quality depth for both tackle spots and he also played LG his rookie season for Dallas.  

Yep, I wouldn't be saying anything positive about Carman if he played poorly at LT and came in in bad shape in OTA's. But that didn't
happen thank God. Carman's anchor is significantly stronger than Jonah's and Carman is in OTA's in great shape after finally showing 
something good in the Playoffs while Jonah is still rehabbing even if he is squatting 600 pounds, he still has to be able to cut, move, 
and do all the things Sunset said.

Jackson Carman has the head start at RT and even La'el has been at OTA's with his teammates.

(06-07-2023, 09:10 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I guess Jonah has been posting some videos of his workouts.  I understand why he isn't with the team for these "voluntary"  workouts, but I wish he was here.

He reportedly (James Rapien today on Locked on Bengals) squatted 600 lbs and did the 5% past 90 degree drop.  If this is true, 20 weeks after his surgery, that is great news and hopefully signals a stronger, more fit, Jonah for the 2023 season.  

I may be the only one, but I am kind of intrigued at the idea of Carman getting the RT job after a desperate team offers a great trade for Jonah.  With that money off the books, they could add another quality vet seeking a ring.  Regardless, I am happy to see Jonah going after it.

EDIT:  Update:  here is the link to his squat of 605 x 3 (Sorry I shorted you the 5 lbs Jonah)

Look: Bengals OT Jonah Williams shares another workout update (usatoday.com)

I saw an exclamation point in the title of the thread, had to do a double-take when I saw it wasn't the poster I expected 

(06-07-2023, 09:10 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I guess Jonah has been posting some videos of his workouts.  I understand why he isn't with the team for these "voluntary"  workouts, but I wish he was here.

He reportedly (James Rapien today on Locked on Bengals) squatted 600 lbs and did the 5% past 90 degree drop.  If this is true, 20 weeks after his surgery, that is great news and hopefully signals a stronger, more fit, Jonah for the 2023 season.  

I may be the only one, but I am kind of intrigued at the idea of Carman getting the RT job after a desperate team offers a great trade for Jonah.  With that money off the books, they could add another quality vet seeking a ring.  Regardless, I am happy to see Jonah going after it.

EDIT:  Update:  here is the link to his squat of 605 x 3 (Sorry I shorted you the 5 lbs Jonah)

Look: Bengals OT Jonah Williams shares another workout update (usatoday.com)

Great for Jonah but I have been underwhelmed by him. His inability to stop a bull rush is alarming. I hope he never starts for us again.

(06-09-2023, 06:03 AM)casear2727 Wrote: I guess Chido Awuzie is a diva as well...?

If he's squatting 600lbs and not at ota's and asking for a trade then yeah

(06-09-2023, 05:50 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I saw an exclamation point in the title of the thread, had to do a double-take when I saw it wasn't the poster I expected 

Ditto 

(06-08-2023, 08:09 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Right, I'd like to see videos of him doing mirror drills and hand fight practice with a leaner, more agile player.  As you said, he's not lacking for strength, his work needs to be done with his hands and feet.

(06-09-2023, 07:46 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Static movements like squat, bench press and deadlifts are a lot different than dynamic movements on recently repaired knees.  It'll take a little while for him to regain full confidence in his kick slide, plant and pivoting and such.  Regaining power is a good sign though.  (btw, I'm not a medical professional, just have a wife who's been through 7 knee surgeries and became familiar with the rehab process)

(06-09-2023, 08:08 PM)bonesaw Wrote: If he's squatting 600lbs and not at ota's and asking for a trade then yeah

See the two quotes above for some context.  It's not all about powerful exertion in a linear motion.

(06-09-2023, 08:20 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: See the two quotes above for some context.  It's not all about powerful exertion in a linear motion.

When I injured my knee, I felt significantly more confident in lifting heavier weights then I did doing any change of direction drills/running etc.

Being able to lift heavy is a good sign for progression but like you said, it isn’t completely indicative of full health. On that same note, I tore my Achilles tendon last weekend and just had surgery a couple of days ago so I will now be able to comment on that recovery process, too. Lol.

(06-09-2023, 08:47 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: When I injured my knee, I felt significantly more confident in lifting heavier weights then I did doing any change of direction drills/running etc.

Being able to lift heavy is a good sign for progression but like you said, it isn’t completely indicative of full health. On that same note, I tore my Achilles tendon last weekend and just had surgery a couple of days ago so I will now be able to comment on that recovery process, too. Lol.

Good grief, feel better soon.  But on another note, and not to derail the thread, I never understood why coaches have football players do powerlifting moves to gain strength for football.  They really have no connection.  If anything, Jonah should be doing front squats to full depth, like an Olympic lifter.  Olympic lifting leads way more toward athletic power than powerlifting movements.  The clean and jerk is the most powerful movement a human can do, seconded by the squat-catch snatch, which is likely the most athletic power movement that an athlete can do.

(06-09-2023, 09:05 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Good grief, feel better soon.  But on another note, and not to derail the thread, I never understood why coaches have football players do powerlifting moves to gain strength for football.  They really have no connection.  If anything, Jonah should be doing front squats to full depth, like an Olympic lifter.  Olympic lifting leads way more toward athletic power than powerlifting movements.  The clean and jerk is the most powerful movement a human can do, seconded by the squat-catch snatch, which is likely the most athletic power movement that an athlete can do.

Thanks man.

I agree, I’m a big fan of Olympic lifting. I enjoy following the international scene and the lifts themselves are a lot of fun to do, even though I normally run powerlifting routines. I do think a lot of football lifting programs heavily incorporate Olympic lifts, or at bare minimum a power clean. I haven’t seen the jerk incorporated, but cleans seem to be quite common.

(06-09-2023, 08:47 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: When I injured my knee, I felt significantly more confident in lifting heavier weights then I did doing any change of direction drills/running etc.

Being able to lift heavy is a good sign for progression but like you said, it isn’t completely indicative of full health. On that same note, I tore my Achilles tendon last weekend and just had surgery a couple of days ago so I will now be able to comment on that recovery process, too. Lol.

Damn, hate to hear that. I have a bone spur on my right heel and went to get a consult about having it shaved down. The first thing the Dr said (or that I remember) is: "We'll go in there and cut your Achilles". I decided to live with the spur. 

(06-09-2023, 09:12 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Thanks man.

I agree, I’m a big fan of Olympic lifting. I enjoy following the international scene and the lifts themselves are a lot of fun to do, even though I normally run powerlifting routines. I do think a lot of football lifting programs heavily incorporate Olympic lifts, or at bare minimum a power clean. I haven’t seen the jerk incorporated, but cleans seem to be quite common.

My partner and I lead a small, but growing Strongman group here in SE Ohio.  One of the fundamental movements in Strongman is Overhead Clean and Press, and reflecting back on my Semi-Pro football days, I wonder why more guys didn't train more "power in motion" like Olympic lifters?  So, in my group we teach and coach all major primary lift variations for all of the various movements that apply to Strongman, as well as other strength disciplines.

Now, as this applies to the OP, I feel that not only Jonah Williams, but most players in general could benefit from training the Olympic lifts and even segments of.  

(06-09-2023, 09:29 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Damn, hate to hear that. I have a bone spur on my right heel and went to get a consult about having it shaved down. The first thing the Dr said (or that I remember) is: "We'll go in there and cut your Achilles". I decided to live with the spur. 

I’ve never had a bone spur but I would have done the same thing. It is surprisingly not very painful but it is a brutal recovery.

Hope your heel is treating you well these days.

(06-09-2023, 09:31 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: My partner and I lead a small, but growing Strongman group here in SE Ohio.  One of the fundamental movements in Strongman is Overhead Clean and Press, and reflecting back on my Semi-Pro football days, I wonder why more guys didn't train more "power in motion" like Olympic lifters?  So, in my group we teach and coach all major primary lift variations for all of the various movements that apply to Strongman, as well as other strength disciplines.

Now, as this applies to the OP, I feel that not only Jonah Williams, but most players in general could benefit from training the Olympic lifts and even segments of.  

(06-09-2023, 09:36 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I disagree, bud.  In his first two NFL starts at LT, in the divisional round and the AFC title game (including 28 snaps against the Ratbirds), Jonah had a pass blocking average of 67.2, according to PFF.  Jonah's season average grade was 62.7.  I know people hate when PFF is used to make an argument, but the eyeball test against Buffalo and KC, where he practiced all week at LT and started both games showed me a lot about Carman that I had previously not believed. 

Jonah gets a pass due to his fighting through injuries, but he wasn't really playing that well before the injury.  He looked like he added bad weight and lost some of his agility.  

I don't mean to sound like Carman is better than Jonah (although I do believe he has a significantly better anchor), but what I saw in his first two starts at LT, combined with his contract represents a tremendous savings over Jonah.  Collins could start on PUP and either back him up or take the job if Carman is struggling.  I have a feeling that if Jackson gets the snaps at RT and is the starter, he will be pretty solid and won't look back.  

I mentioned earlier that I would keep Collins as quality depth for both tackle spots and he also played LG his rookie season for Dallas.  

This needs some context, Jonah actually scored higher than all divisional OTs one week with a score over 80, he hit the 70's a few times.  He gave up only 4 sacks vs 14 teams.  

Facts are better than the eyeball test.  If Carman was better he would score tremendously higher than Jonah and his 1100 snaps, he didn't, he was worse.    Ranking Carman so high in the snow game without 2 of the Bills best dlinemen when he barely scored a 60 is a bit of a reach wether you like PFF or not.

I'm not down on Carman, I think he has improved.  But he has not won a spot in 2 years, was beat out by a rookie from a MVC team, and he openly stated he had a difficult time on the right side.  He was much better at LG than RG, thus being better at LT isnt too surprising. I would love to see Carman turn it on.  But I dont think anyone on the Bengals staff thinks he is better than Jonah.

There is NO savings this year between the 2.  We are paying Jonah 12.6M regardless if he is the starter or not.  Jonah also helps us with the draft next season if he plays well this year when it comes to a higher comp pick.

I absolutely agree that we keep LC regardless.

(06-09-2023, 02:29 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: True that Carman hasn't shown that he is better than Jonah yet and couldn't beat out Volson at Guard. I just think with what Carman 
finally shown at LT in the Playoffs, coming back in great shape ready to go and playing RT in OTA's and all TC and Preseason he very 
well could be looking better than Jonah by the time the regular season starts. 

It sure would be better for our future if this is the case than Jonah playing great one year at RT, leaving next year and RT still being a 
question because Carman still isn't good on the right side. I have backed up Carman since we drafted him, no time for me to jump ship 
to an oft injured Jonah off a poor season playing hurt, without an anchor moving to RT in a contract year.


Yep, I wouldn't be saying anything positive about Carman if he played poorly at LT and came in in bad shape in OTA's. But that didn't
happen thank God. Carman's anchor is significantly stronger than Jonah's and Carman is in OTA's in great shape after finally showing 
something good in the Playoffs while Jonah is still rehabbing even if he is squatting 600 pounds, he still has to be able to cut, move, 
and do all the things Sunset said.

Jackson Carman has the head start at RT and even La'el has been at OTA's with his teammates.

Lineman looking good in shorts during preseason drills means absolutely nothing with both starting level OTs not participating. 

I disagree that Carman playing this year is better for our future.  If Carman starts this season and Jonah is on the bench we might get a 6th round comp pick. If Jonah starts and plays just average we get a 3rd. 

Chido has not been at OTA's either, so everyone needs to quit with that excuse to bash Jonah. 

I hope they both look great, but if it is remotely close give me Jonah and his experience giving us a better chance to win the SB AND get a high comp pick.  Carman still has next year and could be more affordable with only one season under his belt if we choose to extend him....


And to those who dont care about comp picks, an extra 3 this past draft could have given us any one of these players:

Saldiveri G/T
Freeland DT
Adebawore DT
Dawand Jones T
Zavala G
Roschon Johnson RB
Gaines G
McGuire DE

(06-09-2023, 08:08 PM)bonesaw Wrote: If he's squatting 600lbs and not at ota's and asking for a trade then yeah

I know it isnt, but that response makes it sound like your first OTA's.  

Both have injury rehabs going.  Trey had no injuries and didnt come last year...

I'd suggest we wait and see if Jonah shows up at mini camp next week before the baseless name-calling.  No doubt it may to be awkward for Jonah, at the least.

(06-09-2023, 09:59 PM)casear2727 Wrote: This needs some context, Jonah actually scored higher than all divisional OTs one week with a score over 80, he hit the 70's a few times.  He gave up only 4 sacks vs 14 teams.  

Facts are better than the eyeball test.  If Carman was better he would score tremendously higher than Jonah and his 1100 snaps, he didn't, he was worse.    Ranking Carman so high in the snow game without 2 of the Bills best dlinemen when he barely scored a 60 is a bit of a reach wether you like PFF or not.

I'm not down on Carman, I think he has improved.  But he has not won a spot in 2 years, was beat out by a rookie from a MVC team, and he openly stated he had a difficult time on the right side.  He was much better at LG than RG, thus being better at LT isnt too surprising. I would love to see Carman turn it on.  But I dont think anyone on the Bengals staff thinks he is better than Jonah.

There is NO savings this year between the 2.  We are paying Jonah 12.6M regardless if he is the starter or not.  Jonah also helps us with the draft next season if he plays well this year when it comes to a higher comp pick.

I absolutely agree that we keep LC regardless.

I don't understand the first point you made.  Jonah's pass blocking rating was worse than Carman's over the entire season in what was the first two games EVER for Carman playing LT in the NFL.  The snow game might have had something to do with it, but he did very well against KC.  I think he was our highest rated linemen that game.  Again, this was his first two starts at LT in the NFL.

There is absolutely savings to be had, but Jonah would have to be traded for that to happen.  I thought I explained how my wish was that some desperate team would give the Bengals some equity for Williams.  

I come back to this point about Carman a lot:  I saw Andrew Whitworth struggle BIG TIME when he started playing OT.  He was MUCH older and more experienced, but struggled really badly.  Good thing for the Bengals they didn't give up on him so easily.  

Maybe Carman will shrink in the face of the competition.  Maybe he will rise.  Either way, my hope is still that he wins the job making Jonah expendable and the Bengals get something for him and can apply that savings to either contract extensions or another player.  

I don't spend much time being a cap-ologist, but I think one of the things this could allow is to give Tee a lot of his next contract in the form of a bonus, so his future dollars aren't hurting as much.  

(06-09-2023, 05:50 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I saw an exclamation point in the title of the thread, had to do a double-take when I saw it wasn't the poster I expected 

I get confused for Brad all the time...

(06-07-2023, 09:10 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I guess Jonah has been posting some videos of his workouts.  I understand why he isn't with the team for these "voluntary"  workouts, but I wish he was here.

He reportedly (James Rapien today on Locked on Bengals) squatted 600 lbs and did the 5% past 90 degree drop.  If this is true, 20 weeks after his surgery, that is great news and hopefully signals a stronger, more fit, Jonah for the 2023 season.  

I may be the only one, but I am kind of intrigued at the idea of Carman getting the RT job after a desperate team offers a great trade for Jonah.  With that money off the books, they could add another quality vet seeking a ring.  Regardless, I am happy to see Jonah going after it.

EDIT:  Update:  here is the link to his squat of 605 x 3 (Sorry I shorted you the 5 lbs Jonah)

Look: Bengals OT Jonah Williams shares another workout update (usatoday.com)

My opinion was Jonah lacked strength based on his weak pass blocking at time. An OL who while injured can squat 600 LBs. is a big deal. My guess is he also working on his upper body and core also.
Jonah's issues may be more technique related than strength. If so, if he builds hs strength and coaches help him fix technique issues there is hope for him and for us in 2023 and beyond.

I am happy with updates on Collins also and love Orlando Brown attitude thus far. If we develop a top 5 or even top 10 OL with our QB and our weapons, this team will be a force offensively.