I was just thinking of something and I don’t know why I had never thought of it before.

When we dropped the atomic bombs on Japan, did our planes carrying the bombs have any fighter plane cover?

Were there no Japanese planes to shoot them down?

I just never heard of any defense to the bombings and that seems weird for a nation at war.

Here you go Brad from your discussion on this last year:

http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-When-We-Dropped-The-Atomic-Bombs-On-Japan

(04-13-2023, 05:10 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: I was just thinking of something and I don’t know why I had never thought of it before.

When we dropped the atomic bombs on Japan, did our planes carrying the bombs have any fighter plane cover?

Were there no Japanese planes to shoot them down?

I just never heard of any defense to the bombings and that seems weird for a nation at war.

A)  The Japanese air force, sea and land, had essentially been destroyed, but more importantly they had lost 99% of their skilled pilots.  So they lost all their skill and all their teachers.  This is one reason why they turned to the kamikaze, because it took very little skill to pilot a flying bomb into a target.

B)  They flew very high and out of range of any fighter cover, if there had been any.

(04-13-2023, 09:05 AM)George Cantstandya Wrote: Here you go Brad from your discussion on this last year:

http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-When-We-Dropped-The-Atomic-Bombs-On-Japan

I don’t even remember making that!

Covid brain!

lol

(04-13-2023, 09:07 AM)Stewy Wrote: A)  The Japanese air force, sea and land, had essentially been destroyed, but more importantly they had lost 99% of their skilled pilots.  So they lost all their skill and all their teachers.  This is one reason why they turned to the kamikaze, because it took very little skill to pilot a flying bomb into a target.

B)  They flew very high and out of range of any fighter cover, if there had been any.

I figured that the answer would probably be because their Air Force had been destroyed, but then you have to wonder why we’d even drop the bombs?

What movie was that where they said it was just to scare the Russians? Outbreak?

(04-13-2023, 09:26 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: I don’t even remember making that!

Covid brain!

lol


I figured that the answer would probably be because their Air Force had been destroyed, but then you have to wonder why we’d even drop the bombs?

What movie was that where they said it was just to scare the Russians? Outbreak?

That's a question just about every other country in the world asks to this day. 

(04-13-2023, 10:08 AM)CKwi88 Wrote: That's a question just about every other country in the world asks to this day. 

Because the cost of life for a land invasion when they were training the ground troups to also be kamazi was deemed to great when an alternative was available.

And to bring the conflict to an end as quickly as possible with as little loss of (our troops) as possible

IT WORKED

(04-13-2023, 09:26 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: I don’t even remember making that!

Covid brain!

lol


I figured that the answer would probably be because their Air Force had been destroyed, but then you have to wonder why we’d even drop the bombs?

What movie was that where they said it was just to scare the Russians? Outbreak?

There are some theories that the U.S. dropped the bombs partially due to the Soviet Union, yes. The two countries didn't trust each other. However, that isn't the primary reason. The Japanese knew that the war was lost and were struggling internally on how to deal with this. The country was destroyed and starving. There were individuals in the government that wanted to fight until the last man and there were individuals who wanted to surrender. The Japanese contacted the Allies to negotiate a truce but the Allies would only accept complete, unconditional surrender. This didn't sit well with the Japanese as they wanted Emperor Hirohito to stay in power. This was at a time where many people worshipped the Emperor, and he was likely to be tried for war crimes and executed if he was removed from power. 

The United States wanted to use these new bombs and end the war as quickly as possible. The most common fact you'll hear quoted about the decision to drop the bombs is one about the number of Purple Hearts manufactured in preparation for a mainland invasion of Japan. Since the invasion never happened, these Purple Hearts were put into a stockpile and we still have not gone through that stockpile. So, all of the injured in the Korean War, Vietnam War, Desert Storm, Afghanistan/Iraq were still not enough to exhaust that supply. The casualty estimates were in the millions. A struggle that U.S. leaders faced was related to the bombs themselves - they had these immensely powerful bombs that could maybe end the war quickly. If they didn't use them and millions of people died fighting the war further, how would that be received? The opportunity was there. It was believed that the Japanese would fight to the last man, and there were some in the Japanese government who were certainly ready to do so.

Regarding the Soviets, it has been argued that the U.S. also dropped the bombs to display the immense power and destruction they can cause. I've seen people argue that this is a major reason why no more atomic bombs have been dropped to this day. If the U.S. didn't drop them, would the Soviets have dropped them on another country? There's no way to know but it is a possibility. 

(04-13-2023, 10:23 AM)KillerGoose Wrote: Regarding the Soviets, it has been argued that the U.S. also dropped the bombs to display the immense power and destruction they can cause. I've seen people argue that this is a major reason why no more atomic bombs have been dropped to this day. If the U.S. didn't drop them, would the Soviets have dropped them on another country? There's no way to know but it is a possibility. 

If the US didn't do it first someone else would have be that the Soviet Union or 10 to 20 years later by another country. The Geneva Protocols were right after WW2 because the last two World Wars were only roughly 20 years apart and devastated the worlds population with a new type of warfare Chemical and Biological.

Chernobyl while only an accident helped remind the World Population the devastation those kinda weapons could cause and practically ended the cold war. I believe the Soviet Union collapsed 3 or 4 years later. Last year the world flipped when those Russian missiles exploded within 1000 feet of the Nuclear plant in the Ukraine.

(04-13-2023, 09:26 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: I figured that the answer would probably be because their Air Force had been destroyed, but then you have to wonder why we’d even drop the bombs?

The Japanese had 10,000 short range kamikaze fighters ready to hit every kind of landing craft (not Navy fighting vessels) coming at the Southern Island.

Every Japanese citizen (elderly, man, woman, child) was being trained to fight with everything they had, and to the death, every step of the way, and by all reports, from the US and Japan, they were prepared to do it.

The Japanese homeland build up and the experience of fighting a dug in and determined Japanese enemy on Okinawa, lead to astronomical estimates for causalities and dead, which is what convinced the President to use the bomb.

Note that yes this is from a Wiki, but it mesh's with several documentaries, and books that I have read.  Post war documents detailing Japan's preparation and determination to repel an allied invasion, showed that the larger estimates were probably under estimated as well.

Quote:On 15 June 1945, a study by the Joint War Plans Committee,[17] who provided planning information to the Joint Chiefs of Staff, estimated that Olympic would result in 130,000 to 220,000 U.S. casualties, with U.S. dead in the range from 25,000 to 46,000. Delivered on 15 June 1945, after insight gained from the Battle of Okinawa, the study noted Japan's inadequate defenses due to the very effective sea blockade and the American firebombing campaign. The Chief of Staff of the United States Army, General of the Army George Marshall, and the Army Commander in Chief in the Pacific, General of the Army Douglas MacArthur, signed documents agreeing with the Joint War Plans Committee estimate.[18]

The Americans were alarmed by the Japanese buildup, which was accurately tracked through Ultra intelligence.[19] Secretary of War Henry L. Stimson was sufficiently concerned about high American estimates of probable casualties to commission his own study by Quincy Wright and William Shockley. Wright and Shockley spoke with Colonels James McCormack and Dean Rusk, and examined casualty forecasts by Michael E. DeBakey and Gilbert Beebe. Wright and Shockley estimated the invading Allies would suffer between 1.7 and 4 million casualties in such a scenario, of whom between 400,000 and 800,000 would be dead, while Japanese fatalities would have been around 5 to 10 million.[20][21]

While it's easy to stand back and condemn the use of the bomb in retrospect, at the time is saved potentially over 10 million lives.  However, if the President had had hindsight into the long lasting effects of the radiation, fallout and long lasting political ramifications of using the bomb, he probably would have been faced with the single most excruciating decision in the history of the world.

The Japanese fighters were busy providing air cover to the Germans when they bombed Pearl Harbor.

Interesting fact about Chernobyl. The Soviet Union provided Apple Juice to help filter out the Radiation from the citizens. I guess the Pectin in apples works very well leeching the body of heavy metals and even radiation.

(04-13-2023, 03:11 PM)Stewy Wrote: The Japanese had 10,000 short range kamikaze fighters ready to hit every kind of landing craft (not Navy fighting vessels) coming at the Southern Island.

Every Japanese citizen (elderly, man, woman, child) was being trained to fight with everything they had, and to the death, every step of the way, and by all reports, from the US and Japan, they were prepared to do it.

The Japanese homeland build up and the experience of fighting a dug in and determined Japanese enemy on Okinawa, lead to astronomical estimates for causalities and dead, which is what convinced the President to use the bomb.

Note that yes this is from a Wiki, but it mesh's with several documentaries, and books that I have read.  Post war documents detailing Japan's preparation and determination to repel an allied invasion, showed that the larger estimates were probably under estimated as well.

While it's easy to stand back and condemn the use of the bomb in retrospect, at the time is saved potentially over 10 million lives.  However, if the President had had hindsight into the long lasting effects of the radiation, fallout and long lasting political ramifications of using the bomb, he probably would have been faced with the single most excruciating decision in the history of the world.

Thanks for the info. I LOVE reading things like that.

That does make sense because of the way the Japanese people looked at the emperor as a God.

I didn't know that about the 10,000 kamikaze fighters but it does make sense when they believe the emperor is a God. Look at all the Middle East fighters who went kamikaze in the name of allah.

(07-02-2023, 04:39 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Thanks for the info. I LOVE reading things like that.

That does make sense because of the way the Japanese people looked at the emperor as a God.

I didn't know that about the 10,000 kamikaze fighters but it does make sense when they believe the emperor is a God. Look at all the Middle East fighters who went kamikaze in the name of allah.

Right and the Japan based kamikaze fliers had orders to attack the troop transports, not the war ships, which would have meant hundreds of thousands or more troops dead before we take a beach head.

Archived videos (not propaganda videos) from 1944-45 show the level of prep. the Japanese were putting into it.  They expected every man, woman and child to fight.  They showed   women and children in uniforms, some with old swords or farm tools, training to fight, and they looked proud to do it.  10's of millions of Japanese would have died if we had invaded, and millions of US Troops and allies.   The decision to drops the bombs was to save lives, because we were going to win one way or another.  It was invasion or surrender.  There was no third option, because we weren't walking away.

(07-02-2023, 07:49 PM)Stewy Wrote: Right and the Japan based kamikaze fliers had orders to attack the troop transports, not the war ships, which would have meant hundreds of thousands or more troops dead before we take a beach head.

Archived videos (not propaganda videos) from 1944-45 show the level of prep. the Japanese were putting into it.  They expected every man, woman and child to fight.  They showed   women and children in uniforms, some with old swords or farm tools, training to fight, and they looked proud to do it.  10's of millions of Japanese would have died if we had invaded, and millions of US Troops and allies.   The decision to drops the bombs was to save lives, because we were going to win one way or another.  It was invasion or surrender.  There was no third option, because we weren't walking away.

Crazy how different things are in different cultures.

This is why I'm so in love with history, particularly wars, and always have been, especially pre-tree.

A lot of naysayers think the US is doomed to failure and a war with China will spell doom for us all, but the same naysayers never acknowledge the fact that the US was the only power after WWII to emerge intact.  We would have no globalization if not for the war. European armies were decimated as were their navies..Japan was in tatters and the Soviets were as well, but the Soviet Union had one trick up its sleeve and they still use it to great effect to this day,  maskirovka, deception and trying to convince everyone they're far stronger than they actually are. China still uses it as well, but China has a real tell..They go way overboard with deception to the point nobody really believes anything they put out anymore. They have a couple of aircraft carriers, but none are nuclear powered and their construction methods and materials are garbage. They have a green water navy so sailing around the world to project power  like a blue water navy can? Not happening.. Their J-20 and J-15s are direct ripoffs of our systems and they don't have the infrastructure to properly train pilots in combat.. Nobody in the Chinese system has experienced war beyond the borders with India..They definitely don't have the expertise to maintain the technology they have long term. As far as Russia goes..they've been exposed by the war in Ukraine. 
The US has by far the biggest advantage no nation on earth has, the greatest geography any nation in the history of the world with two GIANT motes, a near unlimited war chest and the most advanced technology the world has ever known..ever. 
Anyway, the rest of the world has been playing catch up since before WWII while we've spent like drunken sailors ever since on defense. 
What's any of this have to do with Japan?  They threw in their lot with two consecutive administrations to become lifetime allies with us and we've had military bases in Japan since the war..Most of the Japanese population has moved on from the bombings.Now Japan is building back up their military as US allies..
Now back to your regularly scheduled programming..

(07-06-2023, 10:35 PM)grampahol Wrote: A lot of naysayers think the US is doomed to failure and a war with China will spell doom for us all, but the same naysayers never acknowledge the fact that the US was the only power after WWII to emerge intact.  We would have no globalization if not for the war. European armies were decimated as were their navies..Japan was in tatters and the Soviets were as well, but the Soviet Union had one trick up its sleeve and they still use it to great effect to this day,  maskirovka, deception and trying to convince everyone they're far stronger than they actually are. China still uses it as well, but China has a real tell..They go way overboard with deception to the point nobody really believes anything they put out anymore. They have a couple of aircraft carriers, but none are nuclear powered and their construction methods and materials are garbage. They have a green water navy so sailing around the world to project power  like a blue water navy can? Not happening.. Their J-20 and J-15s are direct ripoffs of our systems and they don't have the infrastructure to properly train pilots in combat.. Nobody in the Chinese system has experienced war beyond the borders with India..They definitely don't have the expertise to maintain the technology they have long term. As far as Russia goes..they've been exposed by the war in Ukraine. 
The US has by far the biggest advantage no nation on earth has, the greatest geography any nation in the history of the world with two GIANT motes, a near unlimited war chest and the most advanced technology the world has ever known..ever. 
Anyway, the rest of the world has been playing catch up since before WWII while we've spent like drunken sailors ever since on defense. 
What's any of this have to do with Japan?  They threw in their lot with two consecutive administrations to become lifetime allies with us and we've had military bases in Japan since the war..Most of the Japanese population has moved on from the bombings.Now Japan is building back up their military as US allies..
Now back to your regularly scheduled programming..

The Chinese have NO blue ocean watercraft. They would only be able to play defense & turtle, but only for so long since they are unable to venture out from essentially coastguard positions.

Add in your point that the WORST thing about Chinese military equipment is that it's MADE IN CHINA and they don't really WANT armed conflict. China's first nuclear subs sat in ports for over a decade due to needing immediate & extensive repairs. Those ships are literally decades behind the US subs. I read an article that interviewed US military personell about this. The US subs trailed the Chinese all over the ocean and they never knew we were there. Meanwhile their subs were so noisey the US sub crews could literally hear the Chinese sailors conversations on their boats with onboard listening equipment.

How does the saying go? The #1 Airforce in the world is the US Airforce. #2?..... The US Navy. Our BOATS have better planes than anyone else and it's not even close.

Besides all of that, while China & Russia have more ships than the USA, the TONNAGE difference is INSANE. The US boats are massive & powerful, while Russia & China have a bunch of little tiny boats.

Not sure if anyone was paying attention to the Barbenheimer cinema weekend.

Saw Oppenheimer over the weekend and thought of this thread. I thought it was an amazing film. Did not feel its 3 hr runtime at all.

(07-15-2023, 12:40 PM)PDub80 Wrote: The Chinese have NO blue ocean watercraft. They would only be able to play defense & turtle, but only for so long since they are unable to venture out from essentially coastguard positions.

Add in your point that the WORST thing about Chinese military equipment is that it's MADE IN CHINA and they don't really WANT armed conflict. China's first nuclear subs sat in ports for over a decade due to needing immediate & extensive repairs. Those ships are literally decades behind the US subs. I read an article that interviewed US military personell about this. The US subs trailed the Chinese all over the ocean and they never knew we were there. Meanwhile their subs were so noisey the US sub crews could literally hear the Chinese sailors conversations on their boats with onboard listening equipment.

How does the saying go? The #1 Airforce in the world is the US Airforce. #2?..... The US Navy. Our BOATS have better planes than anyone else and it's not even close.

Besides all of that, while China & Russia have more ships than the USA, the TONNAGE difference is INSANE. The US boats are massive & powerful, while Russia & China have a bunch of little tiny boats.

Battleships aren't effective anymore though: the tonnage difference has more to do with carriers than anything else.

(I agree with you, but that's a misleading stat. That's all)

Chinese J20 "Mighty dragon" is essentially a knock off of the F35 except for the delta wing configuration and the front wings. Russian SUs are also delta wings meaning in combat they get once chance then the delta wing creates too much drag and uses up all its fuel trying to avoid opponents. They carry 50 30mm cannon rounds. F16s and 35s carry 500 rounds of 20mm and can pull 9 Gs easily without burning all their fuel..
US jets are specialist built for it, but better than that is the US defense budget is almost a trillion bucks so pilots get a shitton of time in the air to get really good at what they do. 
Anyway, as it sits now in Ukraine the Russians are afraid to use theirs in the skies . They don't stand a chance against the USAF and Navy pilots.. They like to play vandalism in the sky, but when push comes to shove they know they're toast.  

I don't want to be alarmist, but I have a strong feeling Russia will eventually use nuclear weapons before it's all said and done, but it'll more than likely be on their own territory against others trying to break away from the Russian federation, maybe the Chinese. Their nuclear doctrine is built around protecting Russia proper and the other republics in the federation are just there to be used as cannon fodder to protect the Russian republic..