(10-18-2023, 09:43 AM)ochocincos Wrote: 1 sack, 9 total pressures allowed through 5 games on 195 pass block attempts.
71.4 PFF pass block rating, 49.9 run block rating. 60.6 overall. That's not "damn near elite," fwiw. That's just serviceable.

For comparison, Jonah Williams is 2 sacks, 12 total pressures allowed, but on 69 more pass block attempts.
So you can argue about as good or just slightly better than Jonah as a pass blocker.
As a run blocker, Jones is worse than Jonah.
66 pass block grade, 63.5 run block grade. 67.6 overall according to PFF.

As a rookie. Against the 2 best pass rushers in the nfl. Or at worst 2 of the 3 in TJ watt and Nick bosa. Averaging what less than 2 pressures a game? And a sack every 2 and a half games? He’s been elite for a rookie.

(10-18-2023, 01:21 PM)Jpoore Wrote: As a rookie. Against the 2 best pass rushers in the nfl. Or at worst 2 of the 3 in TJ watt and Nick bosa. Averaging what less than 2 pressures a game? And a sack every 2 and a half games? He’s been elite for a rookie.

Well now you're adding clauses, which you didn't initially.

If comparing him to what you would expect/want from a starter, it doesn't matter if they are a rookie or veteran. They need to be able to perform to a certain expectation otherwise it could result in more losses than expected.

(Also, you bring up X number average in a game, which really isn't fair because CLE is a running team. You should be look at it on a per-snap basis because some teams pass far more than others)

But you bring in the rookie clause, which (unless I'm misunderstanding) is you expect him to get (a lot) better in subsequent years.
However, that isn't always the case.

Let's look at Jonah Williams as an example.

His rookie year, he had 429 pass snaps, which is just more than double what Dawand Jones has now (195).
How did Williams do in those 429 pass snaps? - 3 sacks, 20 pressures allowed


If you were to project Dawand Jones on the pace he's going, his numbers for 429 pass block snaps are on pace for... 20 total pressures, 2-3 sacks
Basically he's doing about as well as Jonah did his first season. But Jonah was on the left side whereas Jones is on right, and CLE is (much) more of a rushing offense than CIN was in 2019.

As we know, Jonah never really got better as the years have gone on. He's been about the same as when he started. Typically allowing around 40-45 pressures in a full season.
Us Bengals fans have considered Jonah to allow too many pressures and sacks, which is why he got replaced by someone better and he moved to the right side.

We'll have to see what Dawand Jones ends up doing, but 1) it's not guaranteed he gets better than he is as a rookie (since some don't), and 2) his numbers are naturally gonna be lower because of the offense he plays in.
I'm not saying he's bad, just not elite.

(10-18-2023, 12:32 AM)Jpoore Wrote: To a point you’re right. I definitely have a bias there…. But I also hate on players when they do. For example I HATED Eli apple coming out. As well as multiple others. Osu has a great crop of talent every year so…. But stover a good-great blocking te with legit touch, feel for routes, and athletic catching ability. I doubt he lasts till end of rd3, but… he’s a former dlineman and lber..

I’ve missed on some but answer this. My guy I stood for from the jump last year was dawand jones. How’s he been this year? Elite? Damn close. I suck at qb evaluations and I admit that.. I’m DAMN GOOD at the trenches.

Like when you declared Will Hernandez was not only better than Quentin Nelson, but the best Olineman in his draft class?

Bringing the convo back around to TEs...

Ja'Tavion Sanders only 14 receptions in 6 games for Texas, but at 20.8 YPR.
Because of his low receptions, he's only on pace for about the same of yards as he had last year.
This might help keep him late Rd 1 or even into Rd 2.

(10-19-2023, 10:06 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Bringing the convo back around to TEs...

Ja'Tavion Sanders only 14 receptions in 6 games for Texas, but at 20.8 YPR.
Because of his low receptions, he's only on pace for about the same of yards as he had last year.
This might help keep him late Rd 1 or even into Rd 2.

He has been dealing with an injury over the last 2 games (hurt against Kansas, limited against Oklahoma). 

(10-19-2023, 11:10 AM)Synric Wrote: He has been dealing with an injury over the last 2 games (hurt against Kansas, limited against Oklahoma). 

Didn't know about the injury, but 14 receptions in 6 games is still low compared to the 54 he put up last year in 13 games.
I would have hoped he'd be around 20-25 by this point.

I know that there is a lot of bias against Ohio St. players on here, but Cade Stover is quietly having a very nice season. Through 5 games he's caught 23 passes for 359 yds, averaging 15.6/catch with 3td. More than just a "move the chains" guy, he has 3 receptions of over 40 yards in those 5 games. He's a solid blocker as well.

(10-19-2023, 02:22 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I know that there is a lot of bias against Ohio St. players on here, but Cade Stover is quietly having a very nice season.  Through 5 games he's caught 23 passes for 359 yds, averaging 15.6/catch with 3td. More than just a "move the chains" guy, he has 3 receptions of over 40 yards in those 5 games.  He's a solid blocker as well.

Yep I'd be happy with Stover on Day 2.
Heck, if he tests well in draft workouts along with putting up a great stat line this season, he could ascend pretty high.

TheDraftNetwork surprisingly doesn't have Stover as a Top 100 prospect, but I for sure think he is/will be come draft day.

The main guys I'm looking at this year are Bowers (obviously), Sanders, Stover, and Ben Sinnott. 
Bowers Top 10-15.
Sanders late Rd 1.
Stover Rd 2-3.
Sinnott around Rd 4-5.

(10-19-2023, 03:40 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Yep I'd be happy with Stover on Day 2.
Heck, if he tests well in draft workouts along with putting up a great stat line this season, he could ascend pretty high.

TheDraftNetwork surprisingly doesn't have Stover as a Top 100 prospect, but I for sure think he is/will be come draft day.

The main guys I'm looking at this year are Bowers (obviously), Sanders, Stover, and Ben Sinnott. 
Bowers Top 10-15.
Sanders late Rd 1.
Stover Rd 2-3.
Sinnott around Rd 4-5.

Sinnett is an interesting player to watch, he does a little of everything.  

(10-19-2023, 03:53 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Sinnett is an interesting player to watch, he does a little of everything.  

Yep for sure.
Reminds me of Ryan Hewitt.

Some might like Jaheim Bell, but he's arguably too small. Only 6'3", 230 lbs. Might even measure 6'2" at the Combine.
A creative team could find a way to make good use of him though.
I just don't think that team would be the Bengals.
He's really a true FB size that can run and catch passes.

(10-19-2023, 03:40 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Yep I'd be happy with Stover on Day 2.
Heck, if he tests well in draft workouts along with putting up a great stat line this season, he could ascend pretty high.

TheDraftNetwork surprisingly doesn't have Stover as a Top 100 prospect, but I for sure think he is/will be come draft day.

The main guys I'm looking at this year are Bowers (obviously), Sanders, Stover, and Ben Sinnott. 
Bowers Top 10-15.
Sanders late Rd 1.
Stover Rd 2-3.
Sinnott around Rd 4-5.

Stover is a late day 2 early day 3 guy. He's a great blocker and a solid underneath receiver. Stover is getting alot of space underneath because of OSU's receivers and great run/PA game but you aren't likely to see him win 1 on 1 against a safety or line up against a DB in the slot that's not his game.

(10-20-2023, 12:05 PM)Synric Wrote: Stover is a late day 2 early day 3 guy. He's a great blocker and a solid underneath receiver. Stover is getting alot of space underneath because of OSU's receivers and great run/PA game but you aren't likely to see him win 1 on 1 against a safety or line up against a DB in the slot that's not his game.

I have been considering him mid-late Rd 3, personally.
However, I could see him climb if he continues to do well this season and puts up a good Combine.

(10-20-2023, 12:12 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I have been considering him mid-late Rd 3, personally.
However, I could see him climb if he continues to do well this season and puts up a good Combine.

But does he fit Cincy enough for them to use a top 100 pick on him? Cade Stover is first and foremost an in-line blocking TE the Bengals won't ever be a heavy rushing team and TE pass block reps are very limited per game. For the Bengals it's all about receiving. In 2022 Hayden Hurst had what 150 run block snaps and like 12 pass block snaps lol.

Not alot of guys in this draft class that fit the receiver role Bowers, Sanders, Bell and Theo Johnson. Then you have a couple of big slot/TE hybrids with Nesbit and Gadsden. Erick All has the talent to do it all but a season ending spinal surgery in 2022 now a season ending knee injury in 2023 will make him go undrafted at the least. Compared to the last couple years it's a really light TE class.

(10-21-2023, 08:30 AM)Synric Wrote: But does he fit Cincy enough for them to use a top 100 pick on him? Cade Stover is first and foremost an in-line blocking TE the Bengals won't ever be a heavy rushing team and TE pass block reps are very limited per game. For the Bengals it's all about receiving. In 2022 Hayden Hurst had what 150 run block snaps and like 12 pass block snaps lol.

Not alot of guys in this draft class that fit the receiver role Bowers, Sanders, Bell and Theo Johnson. Then you have a couple of big slot/TE hybrids with Nesbit and Gadsden. Erick All has the talent to do it all but a season ending spinal surgery in 2022 now a season ending knee injury in 2023 will make him go undrafted at the least. Compared to the last couple years it's a really light TE class.

From what I've seen of Stover this year, he seems to be plenty of a receiving TE to me.
But then again, I thought the Bengals wanted a TE who could both block and catch and thought Darnell Washington was a great fit, but turns out they didn't think he was enough of a receiver for their offense, so....:shrug:

(10-21-2023, 08:30 AM)Synric Wrote: But does he fit Cincy enough for them to use a top 100 pick on him? Cade Stover is first and foremost an in-line blocking TE the Bengals won't ever be a heavy rushing team and TE pass block reps are very limited per game. For the Bengals it's all about receiving. In 2022 Hayden Hurst had what 150 run block snaps and like 12 pass block snaps lol.

Not alot of guys in this draft class that fit the receiver role Bowers, Sanders, Bell and Theo Johnson. Then you have a couple of big slot/TE hybrids with Nesbit and Gadsden. Erick All has the talent to do it all but a season ending spinal surgery in 2022 now a season ending knee injury in 2023 will make him go undrafted at the least. Compared to the last couple years it's a really light TE class.

They did draft Drew Sample in the second RD though in 2019. I don't think it's that much of a reach for them to draft an inline TE early in the draft.

(10-23-2023, 02:21 PM)J24 Wrote: They did draft Drew Sample in the second RD though in 2019. I don't think it's that much of a reach for them to draft an inline TE early in the draft.

2019 they were going to run a wide zone offense with alot of boots and crossers. 2023 is an inside run scheme with alot less blocking and alot more split out receiving TE formations.

Look at the differences in thr 4th round Left Guards they drafted. Michael Jordan was extremely athletic with alot of length for all those reach blocks. Cordell Volson is a phone booth guard with very little lateral agility fit for the vertical rush offense. (Wish Volson could pull would upen up alot of outside runs the Bengals just don't have in their playbook).

(10-23-2023, 10:12 AM)ochocincos Wrote: From what I've seen of Stover this year, he seems to be plenty of a receiving TE to me.
But then again, I thought the Bengals wanted a TE who could both block and catch and thought Darnell Washington was a great fit, but turns out they didn't think he was enough of a receiver for their offense, so....:shrug:

He's averaging nearly 16yds/catch on the season with 4 receptions of 30 yards or more.  Having demonstrated proficiency in blocking both inline and downfield for his fellow receivers, the ability to be reliable in moving the sticks as well as the ability to be a legitimate downfield threat make him a very complete TE.  

(10-24-2023, 08:07 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: He's averaging nearly 16yds/catch on the season with 4 receptions of 30 yards or more.  Having demonstrated proficiency in blocking both inline and downfield for his fellow receivers, the ability to be reliable in moving the sticks as well as the ability to be a legitimate downfield threat make him a very complete TE.  

Exactly.
And from the games of Ohio State I've watched this year (some, but not all), he's looked rather fluid for a TE and made some athletic catches and YAC.
I think he'd be a good fit.
But then again, there are a lot of things I don't know much about lol.

(10-24-2023, 08:07 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: He's averaging nearly 16yds/catch on the season with 4 receptions of 30 yards or more.  Having demonstrated proficiency in blocking both inline and downfield for his fellow receivers, the ability to be reliable in moving the sticks as well as the ability to be a legitimate downfield threat make him a very complete TE.  

(10-24-2023, 09:30 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Exactly.
And from the games of Ohio State I've watched this year (some, but not all), he's looked rather fluid for a TE and made some athletic catches and YAC.
I think he'd be a good fit.
But then again, there are a lot of things I don't know much about lol.

He's really physical on his flares a short stop routes turning 5 and 6 yards routes into 10-12 yards not really a wiggle guy but play through the defender. He's seeing more open seams this year because Ohio State is rotating Harrison and Egbuka into the slot running crossers. I'm a Stover fan I think he can give the Bengals similar play to what Dalton Schultz did for the Cowboys shotgun offense in 2022 probably a better blocker too. 

Some Bengals TE scouting news. I think it was WhoDeyK who mentioned Jalin Conyers in his mock. (Which I still havent seen an Arizona Stae game yet lol).

Scouts from the Tennessee Titans and Cincinnati Bengals are in attendance for Arizona State’s practice this morning.

— Anthony Totri (@Anthony_Totri) October 24, 2023