(11-19-2023, 07:30 PM)Bronxbengal Wrote: The FO gets a big “F” from me on not setting this team up for success this year. 

Right like Burrow being injured for the first several games didn't put the season in jeopardy....

Only thing I'd agree on is the Front Office not getting a capable back up QB... but even then the team isn't elite enough to carry that QB IMO.

(11-19-2023, 02:13 PM)NotBigzo Wrote: I don’t know who needs to hear this.

But an earlier draft pick isn’t going to replace our anticipated losses in this FA.

What's your point?  The FA losses will be the same regardless of wins and losses.  But a higher draft pick MIGHT replace on the losses, whereas, a pick in the 20's has little hope.

Let’s see what happens against the Steelers next week before talking about losing and tanking. Zac Taylor once beat the Steelers with Ryan Finley at quarterback.

There's also a difference in intentionally throwing games vs losing out because the team is just that bad without Burrow.

At this point, I don't really have any playoff aspirations, and playoffs are all I really care about if I'm being honest.
So this season is a wash for me now.

I don't think this team will go winless the rest of the way out, but I wouldn't really care if they did or not.
At this point, I'm all in on thinking who I want in FA and the draft for next year, and whatever happens happens as far as this season's record.

(11-19-2023, 08:26 PM)ochocincos Wrote: There's also a difference in intentionally throwing games vs losing out because the team is just that bad without Burrow.

At this point, I don't really have any playoff aspirations, and playoffs are all I really care about if I'm being honest.
So this season is a wash for me now.

I don't think this team will go winless the rest of the way out, but I wouldn't really care if they did or not.
At this point, I'm all in on thinking who I want in FA and the draft for next year, and whatever happens happens as far as this season's record.

This^

(11-19-2023, 08:23 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Let’s see what happens against the Steelers next week before talking about losing and tanking.  Zac Taylor once beat the Steelers with Ryan Finley at quarterback.

The Steelers look dreadful, but they've looked dreadful all year and they've lucked into wins so who knows.  Kenny Pickett looks terrible, as in I'm lurking on their message board and people are not entirely joking that they still have the worst QB in the division.

(11-19-2023, 08:26 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I don't think this team will go winless the rest of the way out, but I wouldn't really care if they did or not.
At this point, I'm all in on thinking who I want in FA and the draft for next year, and whatever happens happens as far as this season's record.

That's fine.  I get the idea and the benefits at this point, but at the same time if we lose Burrow and then go right back to losing damn near every game we can't complain when the football talkin' folks lament that Burrow is stuck with such a lazy and incompetent franchise.

When you make the SB and the AFC Championship game with a player and then you lose him and plummet to the bottom of the NFL it substantiates the haters saying that we are looking a gift horse in the mouth.  I realize that getting a high draft pick and that 4th place schedule and having the best route to the SB in 2024 is the most important thing, but we need to do something to ensure that IF IF IF Burrow ever misses a game or two that we actually give a rat's bum about winning without him.

But as a noted ZT skeptic, I'm expecting we go right back to doing a whole lotta losin'.

(11-19-2023, 01:41 PM)casear2727 Wrote: There is no need to have a divide amongst us regarding those that want to win some games and those that are ok with losing out.

I can’t speak for all of us ok with losing the rest of the games, but I can assure you that my thought process has zero to do with any indictment on Zac Taylor as some have suggested.  My outlook is 100% common sense to me.

We were not a great team with Burrow this year, the Wild Card would be difficult to attain having no tie breakers other than Buffalo.  Without Burrow we likely will not be close to being in contention.

The schedule next season is one reason why losing out can be beneficial.

Losing out offers a 4th Round schedule – we know how close the #1 & #2 seeding can be, a single loss could be the difference.  Playing the Giants instead of the Eagles could be a deciding factor.

The draft is the most important benefit of losing out. Assuming we are NOT in contention, any wins could be damaging for years to come.  One more win in 2019 and we likely do not have Burrow.

Some of have argued the draft is a “crapshoot”, which is true overall, but the higher teams draft the more likely they obtain a quality player.

Some have argued that we are not good at drafting, which is true – especially for the trenches, but we do better drafting much higher in each round.


We are currently slated to draft 18th.  We could easily jump 9 spots and possibly 11 to the #7 pick.  


Losing out puts us in contention for major impact players for the next 5 years:

The #1 TE,  Brock Boward, is he a game changer?  Do we have a hole at TE?
The #1 DT, Jer’Zhan Newton, would interior pass rush help? Do we need a Reader replacement?
The #2 WR, is Tee leaving?
A Top 5 OT, we are likely losing Jonah.


It is not just the 1st Rounders, it’s all the way down the draft.  Tee Higgins & Logan Wilson instead of Jackson Carman and Zach Carter.


Teams we could leapfrog in the draft:

Saints
Falcons
Bucs
Colts
Broncos
Chargers
Raiders
Bills
Commanders
Packers
Rams


I do appreciate those that want to win as much as possible, but this season could be the catalyst for a great run next year.  Losing Joe to the ACL was horrendous, but we got Chase and went to the Super Bowl.

Can’t say I disagree with any of your points. I definitely won’t be disappointed if we happen to lose out. That said, I absolutely can’t stomach voluntarily losing to the Stealers and letting that team possibly sneak into the playoffs because our team didn’t try to win.

As far a draft position, I expect we will be in the range of 12 - 16. Which should put us in position to pick up someone like Newton or OT JC Latham. Stick to the trenches in round 1. Higher picks in later rounds are also important.

In terms of next year’s schedule, in addition to our division, we play all of the AFC West and all of the NFC East. The remaining three “record match” games are AFC East, AFC South, and NFC South. As of now, Patriots, Titans, and Panthers.  So, other than Panthers, not sure how much of an advantage, but agree that every game counts.

Rooting for the 2-4 win teams to win made football interesting for me today….

(11-19-2023, 02:10 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: I think we are forgetting a major issue ahead is Bengals and Cincinnati negotiations for Bengals to stay here.  5-12 will hurt those negotiations and the fan base as a whole, besides just breeding a bad culture of losing... the NFL  draft is deep enough and good enough regardless where we draft to improve your team, it is less about where you draft but how you draft that normally is the deciding factor of being a championship team, if that was not the case how can we explain the Bengals of the 90s , Browns of 2000s etc...

So true. Btw, how many of our best picks weren't even 1st rounders?


Chad Johnson
Rudi Johnson
TJ Houshmandzadeh
Andy Dalton
Geno Atkins
Carlos Dunlap
Tee Higgins
Jessie Bates
Gio Bernard
Marvin Jones
Etc

How many years did the Steelers stay at or near the top of the division while drafting in the 20's? We just need to nail our picks.

(11-19-2023, 02:57 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I get the value of a high pick, seeing as we needed almost every unlucky bounce we got to land Burrow in the first place.  But with that being said, if we  go 1-6 or 0-7 we have to admit the New Dey stuff may just all about Burrow.  It's not ZT, it's not about MB stepping back, it's not about MB's great great great great grandkids taking over the social media pages and so on and so forth.

So far the ZT era has had two speeds:

1. Burrow is out there and we are the best we've ever been
2. Burrow isn't out there and it's the 90s

We really haven't seen much of Zac minus Burrow since the team's been rebuilt, and it's not like we are stepping down from Burrow to average. We're stepping down from Burrow to Akili Smith. So I'd expect a 90's style performance.

(11-19-2023, 11:33 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: So true. Btw, how many of our best picks weren't even 1st rounders?




We really haven't seen much of Zac minus Burrow since the team's been rebuilt, and it's not like we are stepping down from Burrow to average. We're stepping down from Burrow to Akili Smith. So I'd expect a 90's style performance.

This is an excellent point, Shake, but it speaks badly of the entire organization. Why can’t the defense still play at a high level with Joe Burrow out for the year? Other teams can retool an offense to account for an injured starting quarterback so why can’t Cincinnati? Didn’t Nick Foles win a Super Bowl with the Eagles as a backup?

(11-19-2023, 07:38 PM)QueenCity Wrote: Right like Burrow being injured for the first several games didn't put the season in jeopardy....

Only thing I'd agree on is the Front Office not getting a capable back up QB... but even then the team isn't elite enough to carry that QB IMO.

Let’s start the discussion on not having an experienced backup QB. After than not having the depth and personnel for an effective running game and then we finally can debate if the FO attempts to fix a suspect O line was actually worth the money they paid OBJ. Don’t get me started on Taylor’s play calling, Dukes poor evaluation of lineman and Pollacks incompetence as a coach. The front office had plenty of time to ask these questions and address them early in the preseason and did nothing.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Losing sucks.

Losing while Cleveland is the strongest team in the AFC sucks worse.

(11-19-2023, 11:58 PM)Bronxbengal Wrote: Let’s start the discussion on not having an experienced backup QB.  After than not having the depth and personnel for an effective running game and then we finally can debate if the FO attempts to fix a suspect O line was actually worth the money they paid OBJ.  Don’t get me started on Taylor’s play calling, Dukes poor evaluation of lineman and Pollacks incompetence as a coach.  The front office had plenty of time to ask these questions and address them early in the preseason and did nothing.  


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I have been hammering the Fire Pollack movement on this board going back to two years now.

Yes they should of traded or brought in a better QB2

Bottom line it's going to be an interesting off-season just gotta suffer through now.

Watching Samaje Perine check release go 4 for 40 yards  then pick up the DB Blitz on the Sutton TD in the 2 minute drill to put the Broncos up on the Vikings by 1 with a minute left is ugh.

(11-19-2023, 11:53 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: This is an excellent point, Shake, but it speaks badly of the entire organization.  Why can’t the defense still play at a high level with Joe Burrow out for the year?  Other teams can retool an offense to account for an injured starting quarterback so why can’t Cincinnati?  Didn’t Nick Foles win a Super Bowl with the Eagles as a backup?

I think the defense will be fine. I just won't expect them to hold opposing offenses as much as we're used to when the offense is constantly 3 and out. That's an unrealistic and unfair expectation.

Imo, our only real problem is that we never invested in backup QB. Not that Joe Cool is turning into Glass Joe, but he hasn't proven to be the most durable guy, thus far.

I don't think we can get by with the typical Jordan Palmer, Bruce Gradkowski, Ryan Finley type of backup.

Nick Foles had prior starting experience and even led the league in passer rating in 2013. That's not Jake Browning.

(11-20-2023, 12:10 AM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Losing sucks.

Losing while Cleveland is the strongest team in the AFC sucks worse.

We won the AFCN 2 years in a row and went to the SB and AFCCG.  The Browns winning the AFCN and getting beat in the 1st Rd is such a Browns thing.

(11-19-2023, 11:58 PM)Bronxbengal Wrote: Let’s start the discussion on not having an experienced backup QB.  After than not having the depth and personnel for an effective running game and then we finally can debate if the FO attempts to fix a suspect O line was actually worth the money they paid OBJ.  Don’t get me started on Taylor’s play calling, Dukes poor evaluation of lineman and Pollacks incompetence as a coach.  The front office had plenty of time to ask these questions and address them early in the preseason and did nothing.  


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

You know I'd love to disagree with you, but you are correct in this assessment.  I think we will see how much Burrow has covered up the inadequacies of personnel and operation.

(11-19-2023, 10:01 PM)SouthernFan Wrote: Can’t say I disagree with any of your points. I definitely won’t be disappointed if we happen to lose out. That said, I absolutely can’t stomach voluntarily losing to the Stealers and letting that team possibly sneak into the playoffs because our team didn’t try to win.

You don't have to worry about that.  Players and coaches play to win.

The HC and maybe the FO might collude to tank, but no one under them will be in on it.

What you will likely see is players going on IR for injuries, that otherwise they might try to work through.  Or perhaps rookies, 2nd stringers getting opportunities they might not otherwise get during a fight for a playoff spot.  Like Nick Scott getting benched or one of theo ther RBs getting opportunities, etc.  While this isn;t tanking per se, you are likely to see things you wouldn't otherwise with Burrow holding the clipboard.

(11-20-2023, 01:50 AM)casear2727 Wrote: You know I'd love to disagree with you, but you are correct in this assessment.  I think we will see how much Burrow has covered up the inadequacies of personnel and operation.

A LOT, because Burrow is just that good.

I don't see the Bengals winning more than 1 game down the stretch and that one game would be surprising to me. Let's just look at our team for a second.

Do we have a top coach? No, he's stubborn and forces his game plan over making a game plan that shows the strengths of our players.
Do we have a top run game? No, Mixon is a decent RB but he's no way a top RB, especially behind this line.
Do we have a top OL? Lol
Do we have a top receiving core? Yes, when healthy we do. Other than TE.
Do we have a top defense? No. They show flashes, but this year we can't stop the run.

Add that in with Jake Browning and we'll see 2019-2020 Zac Taylor records.