(11-22-2023, 11:38 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Of course.

The last really good OL I would say the Bengals drafted were Zeitler in 2012 (never signed him to vet contract) and Boling in 2011.

But if we're going to push out Alexander for 3 bad picks in Ogbuehi (1st rd), Fisher (2nd rd), and Bodine (4th rd), we should be doing the same with Pollack for Price (1st rd), Carman (2nd rd), and Smith (4th rd).

Bodine wasn't actually that bad.  He graded in the 60's from PFF every year he played.  He was just the weakest link on the OL.  

(11-22-2023, 11:38 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Of course.

The last really good OL I would say the Bengals drafted were Zeitler in 2012 (never signed him to vet contract) and Boling in 2011.

But if we're going to push out Alexander for 3 bad picks in Ogbuehi (1st rd), Fisher (2nd rd), and Bodine (4th rd), we should be doing the same with Pollack for Price (1st rd), Carman (2nd rd), and Smith (4th rd).

I don't disagree, Pollack has had ample opportunity to grow and develop a cohesive and well executing line, and for whatever reasons they just don't seem to get the job done with any consistency under his leadership.  The latest example has to be how our last 3 FA OL acquisitions have not even been able to play up to levels established with their previous clubs.

Edit: Apologies to the OP for digressing into an OL discussion. However, when considering the future of the team in the form of a mock draft, one cannot help but to consider the need for better blocking up front.

(11-22-2023, 11:45 AM)Whatever Wrote: Unfortunately, it's the hand we've been dealt.  This is a bad FA T class, but a good draft class.  If Jonah isn't resigned, we pretty much have to take one in the first two rounds.  We can get an IOL upgrade in FA(though it's not hard to upgrade over Volson).  Hopefully, a new OL coach can also improve things.

I've often wondered if Taylor's propensity to run the pass happy offense hasn't somewhat handicapped the OL by not allowing them to establish any rhythm and dominance by establishing the run with any consistency?

(11-22-2023, 12:32 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I don't disagree, Pollack has had ample opportunity to grow and develop a cohesive and well executing line, and for whatever reasons they just don't seem to get the job done with any consistency under his leadership.  The latest example has to be how our last 3 FA OL acquisitions have not even been able to play up to levels established with their previous clubs.

Grain of salt

Alex Cappa is a good player but in Tampa he was sandwiched between Ryan Jensen and Tristan Wirfs two of the best at their positions.
Ted Karras is a good player but in New England he was playing next to David Andrews and I think Trent Brown somehow ended up at LT? but David Andrews is one of the best Centers in Football, Shaq Mason, and Mike Onwenu.

Orlando Brown... see where im going with this? LoL Yes all 3 are good solid players but those other OL had some top tier talent too Bengals don't.
 

(11-22-2023, 12:41 PM)Synric Wrote: Grain of salt

Alex Cappa is a good player but in Tampa he was sandwiched between Ryan Jensen and Tristan Wirfs two of the best at their positions.
Ted Karras is a good player but in New England he was playing next to David Andrews and I think Trent Brown somehow ended up at LT? but David Andrews is one of the best Centers in Football, Shaq Mason, and Mike Onwenu.

Orlando Brown... see where im going with this? LoL Yes all 3 are good solid players but those other OL had some top tier talent too Bengals don't.
 

Fair points, I will say that they were all brought in here to BE that upper level leadership that turns that group into a cohesive, precision executing unit.

(11-22-2023, 12:46 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Fair points, I will say that they were all brought in here to BE that upper level leadership that turns that group into a cohesive, precision executing unit.

Im not even saying their process was bad because Jonah was coming off his best year, they also signed La'el Collins, and had expectations of a talented year two Jackson Carman when they signed Karras and Cappa. Then just got the best Tackle on the market in Brown the next year.

(11-22-2023, 01:10 PM)Synric Wrote: Im not even saying their process was bad because Jonah was coming off his best year, they also signed La'el Collins, and had expectations of a talented year two Jackson Carman when they signed Karras and Cappa. Then just got the best Tackle on the market in Brown the next year.

I've been of the mindset for a while that it's not necessarily that the players are of poor quality, as much as the leadership isn't using/directing them to their strengths.  Which would be lining up under center and executing some straight ahead, quick hit running plays.  Let them get the defense firmly on their heels, before simply dropping back from shotgun over and over.

(11-22-2023, 01:10 PM)Synric Wrote: Im not even saying their process was bad because Jonah was coming off his best year, they also signed La'el Collins, and had expectations of a talented year two Jackson Carman when they signed Karras and Cappa. Then just got the best Tackle on the market in Brown the next year.

(11-22-2023, 01:25 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I've been of the mindset for a while that it's not necessarily that the players are of poor quality, as much as the leadership isn't using/directing them to their strengths.  Which would be lining up under center and executing some straight ahead, quick hit running plays.  Let them get the defense firmly on their heels, before simply dropping back from shotgun over and over.

I think the thing that gets me is their run blocking.
Brown, Karras, and Cappa should be able to push the opposition off the LOS and Mixon should be able to run north-south fairly easily.
But it seems the blocking is dictating a lot of lateral movement, which doesn't really fit with the skill set of those FAs brought in.

Pass blocking I dunno why there's struggle other than Volson is sandwiched in between Brown and Karras, so they don't have a good guard covering in between them. Also might be how they're being coached to pass block here, but I would doubt that.

Final note - I hate being predominantly in shotgun.

(11-22-2023, 12:35 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I've often wondered if Taylor's propensity to run the pass happy offense hasn't somewhat handicapped the OL by not allowing them to establish any rhythm and dominance by establishing the run with any consistency?

It's hard to establish the run when you have a small selection of run plays you can execute effectively.  If you come out trying to establish the run every game, the D just keys on those plays and pretty soon you're behind on the scoreboard and your D is gassed.  If you can only run a handful of runs effectively, you have to primarily pass and try to catch them with a run here or there to keep them honest.  

For another, lots of teams run pass happy offenses and don't have to get their OL in rhythm by establishing the run.  Why would ours be different?

(11-22-2023, 01:31 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I think the thing that gets me is their run blocking.
Brown, Karras, and Cappa should be able to push the opposition off the LOS and Mixon should be able to run north-south fairly easily.
But it seems the blocking is dictating a lot of lateral movement, which doesn't really fit with the skill set of those FAs brought in.

Pass blocking I dunno why there's struggle other than Volson is sandwiched in between Brown and Karras, so they don't have a good guard covering in between them. Also might be how they're being coached to pass block here, but I would doubt that.

Final note - I hate being predominantly in shotgun.

A big part of power concepts isn't moving the DL off the LoS its finding different ways to get your OL against LBs on the second level. (Inside zone is a similar more versatile concept that the whole "zone" part is just the first step is play side and you can tag different people to climb.)

(11-22-2023, 01:31 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I think the thing that gets me is their run blocking.
Brown, Karras, and Cappa should be able to push the opposition off the LOS and Mixon should be able to run north-south fairly easily.
But it seems the blocking is dictating a lot of lateral movement, which doesn't really fit with the skill set of those FAs brought in.

Pass blocking I dunno why there's struggle other than Volson is sandwiched in between Brown and Karras, so they don't have a good guard covering in between them. Also might be how they're being coached to pass block here, but I would doubt that.

Final note - I hate being predominantly in shotgun.

Mixon doesn't have great vision and constantly tries to bounce runs outside.  Disciplined runners understand that the hole isn't always going to be there and you have to just cram it in there for a yard or two instead of trying to bounce it and losing yardage.  

Brown has been playing injured, and it shows the past several weeks.  Volson has the football IQ of a gnat and can't pick up a stunt, so teams just keep running them at him knowing he will just double team the guy lined up across from him and let the other rusher come free.  We don't have an effective screen game to slow the pass rush down, nor can we threaten the perimeter in the run game to keep edge rushers honest.  

(11-22-2023, 01:45 PM)Whatever Wrote: It's hard to establish the run when you have a small selection of run plays you can execute effectively.  If you come out trying to establish the run every game, the D just keys on those plays and pretty soon you're behind on the scoreboard and your D is gassed.  If you can only run a handful of runs effectively, you have to primarily pass and try to catch them with a run here or there to keep them honest.  

For another, lots of teams run pass happy offenses and don't have to get their OL in rhythm by establishing the run.  Why would ours be different?

How is that any different than simply dropping back in shotgun going three and out repeatedly?  

Take the SF game as a prime example of what I am talking about.  They came out and ran a variety of plays from under center, (rather than the "small selection" that you speak of) and it payed off as the OL was able to establish themselves and maintain composure throughout the game.

(11-22-2023, 01:58 PM)Whatever Wrote: Mixon doesn't have great vision.

This is a great point I forgot to mention Mixon doesn't have the best vision and in alot of power concepts he has to read keys from the LBs at the second level over the DL when running zone stretch. 

(11-22-2023, 01:58 PM)Whatever Wrote: Mixon doesn't have great vision and constantly tries to bounce runs outside.  Disciplined runners understand that the hole isn't always going to be there and you have to just cram it in there for a yard or two instead of trying to bounce it and losing yardage.  

Brown has been playing injured, and it shows the past several weeks.  Volson has the football IQ of a gnat and can't pick up a stunt, so teams just keep running them at him knowing he will just double team the guy lined up across from him and let the other rusher come free.  We don't have an effective screen game to slow the pass rush down, nor can we threaten the perimeter in the run game to keep edge rushers honest.  

Chase Brown hasn't played since Oct 15, so I'm not sure who you're watching.

(11-22-2023, 01:58 PM)Synric Wrote: A big part of power concepts isn't moving the DL off the LoS its finding different ways to get your OL against LBs on the second level. (Inside zone is a similar more versatile concept that the whole "zone" part is just the first step is play side and you can tag different people to climb.)

Folks need to understand that "power" is not drive blocking and you won't get anywhere trying to repeatedly drive block against NFL teams.  The talent gap is just too close for that to work consistently.  This isn't Ohio State vs Kent State.  Everyone on an NFL field is in the top .01% of people who have ever played the game.  

(11-22-2023, 02:12 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Chase Brown hasn't played since Oct 15, so I'm not sure who you're watching.

Orlando Brown...our big FA signing?  

(11-22-2023, 01:58 PM)Synric Wrote: A big part of power concepts isn't moving the DL off the LoS its finding different ways to get your OL against LBs on the second level. (Inside zone is a similar more versatile concept that the whole "zone" part is just the first step is play side and you can tag different people to climb.)

Whatever it is, I don't seem to notice many holes getting opened regardless whether Mixon runs into that hole or not.
Feel like the OL just stays right there at the LOS (or even gets pushed back a good amount) on run plays and it just forms a wall at the LOS.
Not much room for any RB to get through, and Mixon doesn't have the quickness to bounce outside for a big gain nor avoid incoming DL that get into the backfield.

(11-22-2023, 01:59 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: How is that any different than simply dropping back in shotgun going three and out repeatedly?  

Take the SF game as a prime example of what I am talking about.  They came out and ran a variety of plays from under center, (rather than the "small selection" that you speak of) and it payed off as the OL was able to establish themselves and maintain composure throughout the game.

That San Fran game was such an outlier. 

They ran a toss sweep 7 yards they ran the same play twice against the Bills stuffed for a loss twice. They ran a nice pitch against San Fran for a first down on short yardage tried the same thing against Houston stuffed. They brought some WR runs against the 49ers that worked but outside that game they have been stuffed up every other time.

(11-22-2023, 02:14 PM)Whatever Wrote: Orlando Brown...our big FA signing?  

Oh. I thought you meant Chase Brown. My bad. You were talking about Mixon right before so that's why I made the jump to Chase instead of Orlando.

(11-22-2023, 01:59 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: How is that any different than simply dropping back in shotgun going three and out repeatedly?  

Take the SF game as a prime example of what I am talking about.  They came out and ran a variety of plays from under center, (rather than the "small selection" that you speak of) and it payed off as the OL was able to establish themselves and maintain composure throughout the game.

You realize that we passed the ball our first 7 offensive plays and only ran it once on our opening drive?

Shotgun vs under center is a different debate entirely.  Being honest, we've had way more success offensively operating primarily out of the shotgun.  We went to 2 straight AFCCG's and we're a defensive stop from winning a SB with the shotgun, but hey, we won a regular season game with a lot of plays from under center.