(12-01-2023, 04:29 PM)depthchart Wrote: Just how much would a Win at 8 and 3 Jacksonville this Monday night help Zac's "non-Burrow record" Reputation ?


Can Zac win ugly or does the offense have to be on point in the win to Boost Zac's reputation should they beat the Jags ?

I think he can win ugly and it'll help. His win in 2019 against the Steelers in prime time (the win that started it all thanks to Bell), quieted the crowd that was growing impatient given the record that year.

(12-01-2023, 03:43 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: That has NEVER been insinuated.

What hasn't? All I've seen is calls to have him give up playcalling. I haven't seen any fire Zac stuff going around.

(12-01-2023, 04:22 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: His QB without Burrow has been who? Jake Browning? 

I mean cmon...it's one thing to have a capable backup or starting QB like Andy Dalton or Tyler Huntley, but this is Jake Browning we are talking about. Dude wouldn't be on any other NFL roster other than the Bengals. 

ZT went 2-15 when Andy Dalton was his week 1 QB, so I'm not sure you can simultaneously be pro-ZT and say that Dalton is the kind of QB decent enough for ZT to win with.

Firing the head coach is rarely weird. Firstly HCs have to be fired because when they are on the hot seat players start to ignore them and wait for next year. Second, bad coaches have to be fired early because they are cancer to a team (i.e. Jim Turner). Third, coaches that are allowed forever to rebuild plateau and become complacent (Marvin Lewis). Good coaches like good anybody are always getting better. There are many aspects to a coach: getting players ready to play, play development and calling, game management, player development, etc. Good coaches have to be GOOD. Where does ZT shine and where is he getting better?

(12-01-2023, 04:52 PM)puddycat Wrote: Firing the head coach is rarely weird.  Firstly HCs have to be fired because when they are on the hot seat players start to ignore them and wait for next year.   Second, bad coaches have to be fired early because they are cancer to a team (i.e. Jim Turner).  Third, coaches that are allowed forever to rebuild plateau and become complacent (Marvin Lewis).  Good coaches like good anybody are always getting better.  There are many aspects to a coach: getting players ready to play, play development and calling, game management, player development, etc.  Good coaches have to be GOOD.  Where does ZT shine and where is he getting better?

Offering your opinion of the answer to that question will get you mine. 

I'll preface this by signing I would find firing Zac Taylor a highly questionable move. It'd be quite something for a franchise as laughably unsuccessful as ours, to look at firing a HC who has taken us to the Super Bowl and AFCCG in back to back years... and to be talking of firing him, one year later.

But, I think it's fair to criticise some of the way the team is managed. We don't seem to prepare well for the beginning of a season. Part of that is on the QB's lack of training camp availability of course, but we simply don't come firing out of the blocks, and not even close. You don't want to play your best ball of the season in week 1, but nor do you want to start 2-3 every year. The week 1 mess against the Steelers last year was so bad in terms of preparation, that you had to wonder what the hell the team had done all offseason.

I personally think the management of Burrow's status for the first few weeks of this year was laughably bad. He wasn't close to ready in Week 1 and looked pretty bad up until week 5. Clearly injured and I question why he was sent out there for weeks 1-2 personally.

I certainly question the HC when the run game is as atrocious as ours has been for most of his tenure. This season seems the worst yet.

I think there are very valid criticisms to field of the coaching, and ultimately if we want to rightly credit ZT with the Superbowl/AFCCG appearances, we have to credit him with the less good as well.

But ultimately, this argument just returns to my first point in my opinion. He's been the HC during an unprecedented time of success for the Bengals, and that certainly gives him more of a grace period than one down year, where the QB was healthy for about 4.5 games.

(12-01-2023, 04:51 PM)Nately120 Wrote: ZT went 2-15 when Andy Dalton was his week 1 QB, so I'm not sure you can simultaneously be pro-ZT and say that Dalton is the kind of QB decent enough for ZT to win with.

And a historically bad defense. That Dalton team had zero pieces on it. 

(12-01-2023, 04:45 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: What hasn't? All I've seen is calls to have him give up playcalling. I haven't seen any fire Zac stuff going around.

So... you didn't mean what I quoted?

I have been one of the biggest ones on Taylor's neck for years. Been pretty clear about that. Even I'm not saying to fire the man, but I think he should not be doing the play calling. I don't know if the answer wears a Bengals cap or not, but the team seems to fall pretty short with who they have.

Plus, I find it weird when some people think the HC is above reproach because he was the HC when the Bengals won playoff games. Joe Mixon and Eli Apple were on those teams. How dare we change anything with them, right? Burrow and Chase equals wins. History has shown that. Taylor has been a position coach with a participation trophy for a winning team and has been poor leading a team sans Burrow.

(12-01-2023, 05:17 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: So... you didn't mean what I quoted?

Alright I'm a little confused. I meant I've only seen people call for him to give up playcalling duties. It feels like people are taking offense to this and exaggerating they're comments that they want him fired. 

(12-01-2023, 12:50 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Seriously, what are we doing? The fire Zach stuff makes our fanbase look incredibly dumb.

The guy has given us more playoff success the past two years than I have had in my ENTIRE lifetime. One Super Bowl appearance, two AFC Championship games, 5 playoff wins. Were we really expecting to go places this year with Browning as our QB? I mean the season is chalked up as a loss as soon as Burrow's ligament exploded. We aren't winning anything with him the same way the Colts weren't winning anything without Peyton Manning.

Is he perfect? No. But no head coach is. People bag on his offense (although they've been REALLY good when Joe is healthy) but...

his offense is a by product of what BURROW likes to do as a QB. It's THEIR offense. It's a collaboration between ZT, Callahan, and Burrow. It won't change unless Burrow want's it to change...and it actually works when Burrow is healthy.

I guess I just don't get why everyone is so emotional and wants to fire ZT all of the sudden. Sure there are some changes that the team needs to make (running the ball better, protecting Joe better, etc.) but firing a coach seems a bit extreme and emotional and weird to me.

I am with you, Zac can learn from his mistakes and gives us the best chance at a SB win short term. As long as we fix the OL, namely
the running game and Burrow comes back healthy we will be fine, more than fine with Zac Taylor. He might need to give up play calling,
but that is a different matter entirely.

Lou needs to work on a lot of things on his Defense though, have to say, not liking the missed tackles.

I doubt Lou is a HC candidate for any team this Offseason with how bad his Defense has been.

(12-01-2023, 05:12 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: And a historically bad defense. That Dalton team had zero pieces on it. 

Crazy I was gonna mention Lewis winning 6 games the year prior with a similar team. Which I know has been brought up quite a bit in the past. But Jeff Driskel started the last 5 games that season and actually had to come in week 10 when Dalton had gotten hurt. Also remembering AJ Green getting hurt week 9( I believe). Crazy that team started out 5-3 then fell off in part because of the injuries but we were all ready to move on from Lewis. But give Taylor a pass for a 2 win season. Not saying it wasn't time to move on from Marvin or you don't give a pass to a 1st year head coach. But still interesting to look back and judge them for what they really were.

(12-01-2023, 03:19 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I feel like an organization getting ZT without Burrow is like Atlantic Records signing Ringo Starr in the mid 70s...not bad, but not The Beatles, either.

If I were David Tepper I'd give a newly fired ZT the HC job, but I'd also brace myself for questions about his record sans Burrow and pointing out that Bryce Young ain't Burrow.

Zac's record without Burrow is horrific.

(12-01-2023, 06:06 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I am with you, Zac can learn from his mistakes and gives us the best chance at a SB win short term. As long as we fix the OL, namely
the running game and Burrow comes back healthy we will be fine, more than fine with Zac Taylor. He might need to give up play calling,
but that is a different matter entirely.

Lou needs to work on a lot of things on his Defense though, have to say, not liking the missed tackles.

I doubt Lou is a HC candidate for any team this Offseason with how bad his Defense has been.

I really don't know of anyone saying fire Taylor. I do think they're might be some extra anger because we've been waiting 5 seasons for Taylor to fix/learn from his mistakes/issues and it just doesn't seem to be happening. So it's getting harder to believe that it will. Now bringing in an OC does seem like a viable option but what is the realistic chance that actually happens? It's got to be near 0% which doesn't help the malcontents. 

(12-01-2023, 06:08 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: Crazy I was gonna mention Lewis winning 6 games the year prior with a similar team. Which I know has been brought up quite a bit in the past. But Jeff Driskel started the last 5 games that season and actually had to come in week 10 when Dalton had gotten hurt. Also remembering AJ Green getting hurt week 9( I believe). Crazy that team started out 5-3 then fell off in part because of the injuries but we were all ready to move on from Lewis. But give Taylor a pass for a 2 win season. Not saying it wasn't time to move on from Marvin or you don't give a pass to a 1st year head coach. But still interesting to look back and judge them for what they really were.

Yeah but first year coaches can win games too. The dreaded Marvin Lewis won 8 of em, and the guy who'd been the face of the franchise was injured and basically checked out that year. Shane Steichen has done a respectable job this year. He lost his starting QB months ago, and is about to deliver a beating to our boys soon enough.

(12-01-2023, 05:12 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: And a historically bad defense. That Dalton team had zero pieces on it. 

This team had no trenches on both sides of the ball when Zac and Lou got here. They had to build these up to start winning, along 
with getting Burrow of course. Go and try and coach a team that is terrible in the trenches on both sides of the ball. Nearly impossible
to win games with shitty trenches.

(12-01-2023, 06:15 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: I really don't know of anyone saying fire Taylor. I do think they're might be some extra anger because we've been waiting 5 seasons for Taylor to fix/learn from his mistakes/issues and it just doesn't seem to be happening. So it's getting harder to believe that it will. Now bringing in an OC does seem like a viable option but what is the realistic chance that actually happens? It's got to be near 0% which doesn't help the malcontents. 

I have heard a few mention firing Zac, not happening though and most of us just want him to either get much better at play 
calling or bring in someone proven to be the OC. It isn't likely that this happens though you are correct, but in order for us to 
make another run at a Super Bowl, adjustments will have to be made and we will have to have a running game. I hope Zac 
learns this.

He is still young, I remember mid way through the SB season people were calling for Zac's head until we made that crazy run.

It was even happening last season before we made another crazy run. Zac learned, Lou learned.

It can happen again.

(12-01-2023, 06:08 PM)PCB Bengal Fan Wrote: Zac's record without Burrow is horrific.

Horrifically good at getting us Burrow and Chase! 

(12-01-2023, 06:08 PM)NUGDUKWE Wrote: Crazy I was gonna mention Lewis winning 6 games the year prior with a similar team. Which I know has been brought up quite a bit in the past. But Jeff Driskel started the last 5 games that season and actually had to come in week 10 when Dalton had gotten hurt. Also remembering AJ Green getting hurt week 9( I believe). Crazy that team started out 5-3 then fell off in part because of the injuries but we were all ready to move on from Lewis. But give Taylor a pass for a 2 win season. Not saying it wasn't time to move on from Marvin or you don't give a pass to a 1st year head coach. But still interesting to look back and judge them for what they really were.

What's done is done and I've said this before, but we didn't go into 2019 declaring the team to be a league worst dumpster fire...I myself said we should win 7-9 games and be semi relevant.  The idea that 2019 was a "no fault disaster for the best" is hindsight.  Dig up the old threads.  ZT was going to bring Dalton back to 2015 form and use Mixon and Ross correctly. 

Then he didn't and we got Burrow and well...all's well that ends well.  But let's not act like we started 2019 on the Blow for Burrow wagon, because it was the Tank for Tua one, anyways. 

(12-01-2023, 06:17 PM)jason Wrote: Yeah but first year coaches can win games too. The dreaded Marvin Lewis won 8 of em, and the guy who'd been the face of the franchise was injured and basically checked out that year. Shane Steichen has done a respectable job this year. He lost his starting QB months ago, and is about to deliver a beating to our boys soon enough.

I agree. I was just trying to point out how we look at those two seasons with completely different lenses. Actually thinking about it that season and this season have some similarities. We were 5-4 when Green went down and 5-5 when Dalton went down (although 5-6 after the game ended). But it was totally unacceptable for Marvin to only win one more game. Yet if Taylor fails to win any its just what happens when you lose your starter. Just funny the two different lenses.

(12-01-2023, 06:19 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: This team had no trenches on both sides of the ball when Zac and Lou got here. They had to build these up to start winning, along 
with getting Burrow of course. Go and try and coach a team that is terrible in the trenches on both sides of the ball. Nearly impossible
to win games with shitty trenches.

Yeah but Taylor had a top 4 runningback in Mixon and the exact blueprint how to use him. But he completely ignored this for the 1st half of the season. Which I admit I'm assuming but Mixon went from what had to be the worst starting running back to the 2nd between 1st and 2nd half of the season.